Was Jesus a false prophet?

[DivineNames]

What he means (I think) is that there were other prophecies that were supposed to happen in generations to come, right? So why would this:

"I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

happen before his other prophecies?

What prophecies are you thinking of?

 

[DivineNames]

And about the destruction of the temple, just because it happened in the first century... doesn't necessarily mean that the rest of his prophecies need to.

A relevant verse on this point-

I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. (Matthew 24:34 NIV)

All the events take place within the space of the lifetime of a particular generation. Unless you want to dispute the meaning of the word being translated as "generation", then the events will all be in the first century.

Also- the events are described as following on from each other. The impression given is that they are close together.

And-

[quote:b2c90]When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (Matthew 10:23 NIV)

Matthew 10:17-23 describes the persecution of Christians. (Compare with Matthew 24:9-14 / Mark 13:9-13 / Luke 21:12-19.)

"you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes"

This clearly shows that the "Son of Man" will come within the lifetime of those Christians going from city to city to avoid persecution, so all the events described in Matthew 24 etc. are close together in time, they will be witnessed by one generation, within the lifetime of some members of a particular generation.[/quote:b2c90]

 

[Kefka]

Look at the logic of it all, you're talking about God (a supreme, divine, all-powerful being who resides in a glorious kingdom in which no pain or sin exists) and yet you try to approach it intellectually. That fact alone proves that you are indeed approaching this from a biased point of view, as it is a spiritual matter... which is why, without Christ you will not understand.

If God really did inspire the Bible, why can't he provide real prophecy fulfillment?

For one thing, how can you say he hasn't? You, yourself mentioned the destruction of the temple. But... that must be a coincidence right?

For another thing, just because we have a different point of view on things, doesn't mean that we have abandoned an honest approach. It IS an honest approach. I haven't always been christian, it was very recent that I became one. I have read from the bible as you have, and I have read from the bible as a christian. Can you say the same thing? I have read it from two points of view, you have read it from one... all the while look for something to prove. Who's approach is really more honest? Who's approach is really more reasonable?

Just so that I understand where you're coming from... are you an atheist? Or do you just not believe in Jesus?

 

[DivineNames]

Look at the logic of it all, you're talking about God (a supreme, divine, all-powerful being who resides in a glorious kingdom in which no pain or sin exists) and yet you try to approach it intellectually. That fact alone proves that you are indeed approaching this from a biased point of view

Not really what I said. What I said, is that I didn't think abandoning reason could be any part of genuine "spiritual understanding".

If God really did inspire the Bible, why can't he provide real prophecy fulfillment?

For one thing, how can you say he hasn't? You, yourself mentioned the destruction of the temple. But... that must be a coincidence right?

I wouldn't say "coincidence" exactly, but is there not a real possibility that the gospel authors attributed the prophecy to Jesus after the event had actually happened?

I haven't always been christian, it was very recent that I became one. I have read from the bible as you have, and I have read from the bible as a christian. Can you say the same thing? I have read it from two points of view, you have read it from one... all the while look for something to prove. Who's approach is really more honest? Who's approach is really more reasonable?

OK. :D

I have only read the Bible as a non-Christian. However, I don't think it is really fair to accuse me of lacking either honesty or reasonableness merely because I have read the Bible, and have a view on it, without having been a Christian! I will point out that there are plenty of ex-Christians who have read it from both, "points of view". (Unless you think that an ex-Christian was never a real Christian in the first place!)

Just so that I understand where you're coming from... are you an atheist? Or do you just not believe in Jesus?

Well I am certainly an atheist with regard to the "biblegod".

 

[antitox]

keep telling yourself that.

Yes, and I have told you that.

I do wish to make one more point against your "interpretation"- The two verses do not even look compatible.

I will quote different translations of Luke 17:20-

And having been questioned by the Pharisees, when the reign of God doth come, he answered them, and said, `The reign of God doth not come with observation; (Luke 17:20 YLT)

Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed (Luke 17:20 NASB)

Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation (Luke 17:20 NKJV)

One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will the Kingdom of God come?" Jesus replied, "The Kingdom of God isn't ushered in with visible signs. (Luke 17:20 NLT)

Now compare that verse with-

I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (Matthew 16:28 NIV)


The verses that you claim are connected, that you claim are talking about the "kingdom" in the same way, are actually incompatible with each other. If the kingdom doesn't come with "observation", then you aren't going to "see" the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

The scriptures are accurate. If you learn the bible you will understand that the Jews seek signs and the greeks (like our mindset) seek wisdom.(1 Cor 1:22)

The Jewish people of that day sought signs from people, or better yet, in our understanding, some type of miracle or wonder to validate someone's spiritual status. Jesus refused to cater to that (Mat 12:38,39), yet he did refer to his ascension in that statement. This refers to the power of his resurrection. And so he appeared again after he rose. Is that not some kind of observational act of God? I'm sure you will ignore that.

Secondly, the reality of His/God's move in the earth among men is the reference of which Jesus spoke (Pentecost) which was only possible after his resurrection. That is what God wants us to take note of, because it is not intended as a sign of "proof," but it requires faith in personal evidence of one's life. It requires a desire for truth about His existence or one cannot receive it.(Heb 11:6) This is what it's about, but I don't see you realizing it because you desire too much to demonstrate/prove/exercise your hatred of God.

 

[stansenemy]

re;prphet jesus

jesus was not a false prophet there was a specific time frame that jesus was supposed arrive but not in person in prescence that prescence would be signified by the signs that would take place as listed in the gospels,famine so forth and so on,these signs would signify his prescence,when jesus was ressurected he was given rulership over gods kingdom he is supposed to carry out his assignment in heaven,the first tribulation occurred during the time right before the derstriction of jerusalem,there will be another tribulation worse than mankind has ever seen it will be global,and the same signs that were listed in the gospels will still apply.if you are wanting to literally see aprophecy being fulfilled there is a prophecy that points out that god will through his kingdom headed by jesus christ will put it into the nations hearts to detroy all false relgion completely read revel;ation chapter 17 and 18 it will describe a harlot this is false religion and it will further explain how this harlot has committed fornication with the worlds kings or rulers,by prostituting herself to them for favors by world governments instead of submitting to jesus'rule this harlot has put faith in mans government to solve mans problems and therefore the harlots outward worship to god is pointless and he calls her for what she is,the wild beast was the league of nations thats why the scriptures say it exixted but did bot exist because it was toothless and soon faded away but twhat stemmed out of the league of nations was the un ythis is the wild beast,and in 17;17 in revelations the same governments that the harlot prostituted herself to will have a thought put in their minds to destroy the harlot.prophecy has alwasy been understood in hindsight.jesus was speaking to peter earlier nand said before the cock crows 2times you will disown me three times ,please read mark 14;72, the great tribulation will kick off the climax of armegeddon,which will really be the end of satans world rulership

 

[DivineNames]

keep telling yourself that.

Yes, and I have told you that.

I do wish to make one more point against your "interpretation"- The two verses do not even look compatible.

I will quote different translations of Luke 17:20-

And having been questioned by the Pharisees, when the reign of God doth come, he answered them, and said, `The reign of God doth not come with observation; (Luke 17:20 YLT)

Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed (Luke 17:20 NASB)

Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation (Luke 17:20 NKJV)

One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will the Kingdom of God come?" Jesus replied, "The Kingdom of God isn't ushered in with visible signs. (Luke 17:20 NLT)

Now compare that verse with-

I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (Matthew 16:28 NIV)


The verses that you claim are connected, that you claim are talking about the "kingdom" in the same way, are actually incompatible with each other. If the kingdom doesn't come with "observation", then you aren't going to "see" the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

The scriptures are accurate. If you learn the bible you will understand that the Jews seek signs and the greeks (like our mindset) seek wisdom.(1 Cor 1:22)

The Jewish people of that day sought signs from people, or better yet, in our understanding, some type of miracle or wonder to validate someone's spiritual status. Jesus refused to cater to that (Mat 12:38,39), yet he did refer to his ascension in that statement. This refers to the power of his resurrection. And so he appeared again after he rose. Is that not some kind of observational act of God? I'm sure you will ignore that.

Secondly, the reality of His/God's move in the earth among men is the reference of which Jesus spoke (Pentecost) which was only possible after his resurrection. That is what God wants us to take note of, because it is not intended as a sign of "proof," but it requires faith in personal evidence of one's life. It requires a desire for truth about His existence or one cannot receive it.(Heb 11:6) This is what it's about, but I don't see you realizing it because you desire too much to demonstrate/prove/exercise your hatred of God.

(a) The verses are clearly incompatible. You can make up whatever nonsense you like... you can pretend that your own opinion is the inerrant word of God... (that is what you always seem to do. :D )
(b) There is no Biblical basis for your claim in the first place. I easily refuted it.

 

[DivineNames]

I will go through this one more time-

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (Matthew 16:27-28 NIV)

[quote:2c45d]If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels." And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power." (Mark 8:38-9:1 NIV)

What does this all fit with?

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you (Acts 1:8 NIV)

This verse? or perhaps-

At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (Mark 13:26 NIV)

Obviously, it fits with the second verse. Your interpretation is simply absurd.[/quote:2c45d]


Your claim was easily refuted! :D

 

[antitox]

keep telling yourself that.

Yes, and I have told you that.

I do wish to make one more point against your "interpretation"- The two verses do not even look compatible.

I will quote different translations of Luke 17:20-

And having been questioned by the Pharisees, when the reign of God doth come, he answered them, and said, `The reign of God doth not come with observation; (Luke 17:20 YLT)

Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed (Luke 17:20 NASB)

Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation (Luke 17:20 NKJV)

One day the Pharisees asked Jesus, "When will the Kingdom of God come?" Jesus replied, "The Kingdom of God isn't ushered in with visible signs. (Luke 17:20 NLT)

Now compare that verse with-

I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (Matthew 16:28 NIV)


The verses that you claim are connected, that you claim are talking about the "kingdom" in the same way, are actually incompatible with each other. If the kingdom doesn't come with "observation", then you aren't going to "see" the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

The scriptures are accurate. If you learn the bible you will understand that the Jews seek signs and the greeks (like our mindset) seek wisdom.(1 Cor 1:22)

The Jewish people of that day sought signs from people, or better yet, in our understanding, some type of miracle or wonder to validate someone's spiritual status. Jesus refused to cater to that (Mat 12:38,39), yet he did refer to his ascension in that statement. This refers to the power of his resurrection. And so he appeared again after he rose. Is that not some kind of observational act of God? I'm sure you will ignore that.

Secondly, the reality of His/God's move in the earth among men is the reference of which Jesus spoke (Pentecost) which was only possible after his resurrection. That is what God wants us to take note of, because it is not intended as a sign of "proof," but it requires faith in personal evidence of one's life. It requires a desire for truth about His existence or one cannot receive it.(Heb 11:6) This is what it's about, but I don't see you realizing it because you desire too much to demonstrate/prove/exercise your hatred of God.

(a) The verses are clearly incompatible. You can make up whatever nonsense you like... you can pretend that your own opinion is the inerrant word of God... (that is what you always seem to do. :D )
(b) There is no Biblical basis for your claim in the first place. I easily refuted it.

I responded with clear explanation and you came back with nothing. You have nothing to reply so you rant. You don't want any understanding of anything but your own versions without scriptural support or integrity. Thois is nonsensical with someone who has no biblical perception whatsoever. You are no different than a troll.

 

[lovely]

I have been following this thread. I think that no matter what we say, or believe, non-believers are just as set in their non-belief as we, believers, are our faith. A non-believer is deceived into thinking that they are somehow more objective, or more intelligent, than believers because they are skeptical...that is their credential. This is satan's oldest trick in the book, to play on man's own vantiy, and self love. We should have compassion, because but for the grace of God, through the witness of the Holy Spirit, we would be in the same lost state.

As far as some of these prophecies...

Matthew 16:27,28
This is the prophecy of the second coming. This prophecy comes just six days before the transfiguration. Jesus speaks of the judgment, when man will be rewarded according to His works (this is pretty far into the future), and then He brings it down to some who are actually standing there that will see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom. Peter, James and John, in the next chapter, go on to witness the transfiguration. This is the same pattern in in Mark and Luke. I fail to see the big mystery here. He was referring to the transfiguration in the latter part of the prophecy.

Matthew 24:34-35
This is actually the latter part of the Parable of the Fig Tree which follows the prophecy of the second coming in Matthew 24 beginning with verse 27. These verses describe the second coming...and goes through the signs...one of whcich includes the Great Tribulation (which happens in the future yet). Then, in the Parable of the Fig Tree, Jesus instructs us to learn from the fig tree. When the branches are tender, and bringing forth leaves, summer is near. So, you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near...at the doors! The signs of the Fig tree, are compared to the signs of the second coming.. Then, Jesus continues on to let us know that we can be assured these things will take place before this generation passes away (this generation refering back to the one in which these things begin). Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away. Jesus is clearly speaking here of the generation as the one in which these signs begin (I believe Scott said this VERY early on), and He used the fig tree as a picture, to explain the short span of that particular season when the signs begin. When read properly, it is very clear as you trace the train of thought throughout the chapter.

I can not explain this any clearer, and I believe it is just a matter of understanding what you are reading. I have seen this used before as a desperate attempt to discredit Christ, but it is really just an error on the part of the reader. As an argument to support that Jesus was false, it just fails miserably. The Lord bless you all.

 

[Vic C.]

I have been following this thread. I think that no matter what we say, or believe, non-believers are just as set in their non-belief as we, believers, are our faith. A non-believer is deceived into thinking that they are somehow more objective, or more intelligent, than believers because they are skeptical...that is their credential. This is satan's oldest trick in the book, to play on man's own vantiy, and self love.

"Vanity, definitely my favorite sin."
Al Pacino in The Devil's Advocate

:-D

 

[stansenemy]

re:post about jesus' presence

in luke 17:20 in all your translations,if you recall the pharisees wanted a sign from jesus,he wouldnt give them one as far as striking observabkeness,people would only know of his presence in kingdom power by the signs of the last days,famine,,etc.he also pointed out to the pharisees that they would not see the signs of the last days in their lifetime because this prophecy was for a future time ours.its pretty simple

 

[DivineNames]

I can not explain this any clearer, and I believe it is just a matter of understanding what you are reading. I have seen this used before as a desperate attempt to discredit Christ, but it is really just an error on the part of the reader. As an argument to support that Jesus was false, it just fails miserably. The Lord bless you all.

If this is merely a "desperate attempt" to discredit Christ, why do plenty of Bible scholars believe that Jesus predicted these events for within the lifetime of some of his 1st century followers? This includes Christians for heavens sake! It simply isn't plausible that they are all trying desperately to discredit Jesus.

And in fact, there are certain Christians (preterist) who accept that the second coming was predicted in the 1st century, and believe that it did actually happen then. Are they all trying to discredit Christ?

To try and dismiss the issue as "desperate", or as an attempt to discredit Jesus, is not really credible.

"Our reach must exceed our grasp" C.S. Lewis

It is interesting that you quote C.S. Lewis., because I understand that C.S. Lewis accepted that Jesus did indeed give a false prophecy about his second coming. Tell me, do you think C.S. Lewis was trying to discredit Christ? Of course he wasn't! Presumably, C.S. Lewis accepted that Jesus made this false prophecy because he was convinced that the evidence was strong, that the conclusion couldn't reasonably be avoided.

I have not read the book in question, but so I understand, C.S. Lewis blamed the false prophecy on the human "part" of Jesus, so the God "part" hadn't made a mistake.

 

[Solo]

If C.S. Lewis claimed that Jesus made a false prophesy, then he was as screwed up in his thinking about Jesus as you are.

 

[DivineNames]

I responded with clear explanation and you came back with nothing. You have nothing to reply so you rant.

You haven't responded to much of the argument that I have given. What you have responded to, I have dealt with.

 

[DivineNames]

If C.S. Lewis claimed that Jesus made a false prophesy, then he was as screwed up in his thinking about Jesus as you are.

How about providing some argument Solo? But of course, you aren't going to do that, because you just like to talk rubbish...

"Presumably, C.S. Lewis accepted that Jesus made this false prophecy because he was convinced that the evidence was strong, that the conclusion couldn't reasonably be avoided."

 

[DivineNames]

Re: re:post about jesus' presence

he also pointed out to the pharisees that they would not see the signs of the last days in their lifetime because this prophecy was for a future time ours.its pretty simple

What verse are you thinking of?

 

[HisFriend]

When Jesus returns, we who have believed will all know exactly what he meant. :D

We already know what he meant. Its very clear. Jesus promised to return within the lifetime of some of his immediate followers.


It's strange... I can understand the meaning of what Jesus is saying, and yet it seems you can't understand Jesus... and your the one with the Holy Spirit to help you!

But he did return.

Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, `I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.' "

So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst

 

[follower of Christ]

Jesus claimed that all of the events would happen within the lifetime of some of his immediate followers. These would be 1st century events, that is when Jesus was supposed to return.

incorrect.


WHEN we see these signs..

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(Mat 24:32-34 KJV)

So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
(Mar 13:29-30 KJV)

So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
(Luk 21:31-32 KJV)

..then THIS generation that sees them will not pass away....

 

[HisFriend]

Jesus claimed that all of the events would happen within the lifetime of some of his immediate followers. These would be 1st century events, that is when Jesus was supposed to return.

incorrect.


WHEN we see these signs..

[quote:5b92c]
"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(Mat 24:32-34 KJV)

So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
(Mar 13:29-30 KJV)

So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
(Luk 21:31-32 KJV)

..then THIS generation that sees them will not pass away....[/quote:5b92c]

Your reponse completely misses the issue at hand.