Was Jesus a sinner like everyone else?

[Gary]

What catagory would you put someone in if you woke up and found your car gone?

If it was pre-arranged...... ummmmm... I would say that they did as we agreed!

:D

 

[DivineNames]

The Passover sacrifice was made on the afternoon of 14 Nisan. The Passover meal is in the evening, on the first day of Unleavened Bread, 15 Nisan. (The Jewish day is from sunset to sunset.)

Sacrifice was being made, (Matthew 26:17 / Mark 14:12 / Luke 22:7). Jesus and his disciples had a meal in the evening, (Matthew 26:20 / Mark 14:17). Jesus gave bread to his disciples, (Matthew 26:26 / Mark 14:22 / Luke 22:19).

Why would this involve sin? You are only allowed to eat unleavened bread at this time.

I know nothing about N.T. Greek, but apparently, if they were eating unleavened bread it should say, "Azumos", but it actually says "Artos", which is leavened bread.


Azumos-
http://westover.searchgodsword.org/lex/ ... number=106

Artos-
http://westover.searchgodsword.org/lex/ ... number=740


(18) In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twenty-first day. (19) For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And whoever eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel, whether he is an alien or native-born. (Exodus 12:18-19 NIV) (see also- Leviticus 23:6)

 

[DivineNames]

The Gospel of John may contradict the other three on the time that Jesus was captured.

 

[reznwerks]

IF

What catagory would you put someone in if you woke up and found your car gone?

If it was pre-arranged...... ummmmm... I would say that they did as we agreed!

:D

Another "if" to make your beliefs palatable? LOL

 

[DivineNames]

(22) On the sixth day, they gathered twice as muchâ€â€two omers for each personâ€â€and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. (23) He said to them, "This is what the LORD commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.' " (24) So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. (25) "Eat it today," Moses said, "because today is a Sabbath to the LORD. You will not find any of it on the ground today. (26) Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any." (27) Nevertheless, some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. (28) Then the LORD said to Moses, "How long will you refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? (29) Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out." (30) So the people rested on the seventh day. (Exodus 16:22-30 NIV)

 

[Brother Ian]

Absolutely not, no way, no how. If He was, He would not have been an acceptable sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world.

 

[DivineNames]

Absolutely not, no way, no how. If He was, He would not have been an acceptable sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world.

How is that an argument that Jesus didn't sin?

 

[DivineNames]

Why would this involve sin? You are only allowed to eat unleavened bread at this time.

If you think about it, the "Lord's supper" would have been a terrible blasphemy and abomination!!

 

[bibleberean]

Absolutely not, no way, no how. If He was, He would not have been an acceptable sacrifice to atone for the sins of the world.

That is so true... :D

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Those who don't trust or look for Him are completely lost and without hope.

Ephesians 2:11-13 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

 

[DivineNames]

(Exodus 16:22-30 NIV)

The verses show that bb was talking nonsense to say it wouldn't be sin.

I notice that if bb finds "God's law" an inconvenience, then bb has no problem ignoring it. :D

 

[living4onlyJC]

Jesus was human like everyone else, was tempted like everyone else. But he resisted and never sinned. We needed someone who was blameless and pure to take on our sins inorder to be saved from our sins. He was our scapegoat in a way.

 

[bibleberean]

The Manna and the law concerning the gathering of Manna was for the Hebrews while they were in the wilderness. It has no bearing on the Jews once the Manna stopped coming.

The Jews did not harvest food on the Sabbath. As for the disciples eating corn while going through the fields they were not harvesting grain but eating as they went which is not against the law. It is acceptable to eat on the Sabbath.

The Manna laws did not apply. The only reason skeptics and atheists labor constantly to try and convince us that Christ sinned is because deep down they know judgement awaits them.

Too bad for them.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

What were the Pharisees doing in the field making accusations against the guiltless if they had to stay inside on the Sabbath?

There is a marked difference between how the law applied to the Hebrews in the wilderness and when they came to possess the "promised land".

Jesus was not a sinner.

Why do people who have nothing but contempt for Christ and Christians spend so much time here?

Either they are really searching for the truth...or they don't have much of a life...

I hope it is the former and not the latter.

 

[DivineNames]

The Manna and the law concerning the gathering of Manna was for the Hebrews while they were in the wilderness. It has no bearing on the Jews once the Manna stopped coming.

OK, what biblical basis do you have for this??

As for the disciples eating corn while going through the fields they were not harvesting grain but eating as they went which is not against the law. It is acceptable to eat on the Sabbath.

You are contradicting Jesus when you say this. If you think Jesus was wrong, well fine.

You have also given no biblical basis for your claim that it wouldn't go against the law to pick grain on the sabbath.

What were the Pharisees doing in the field making accusations against the guiltless if they had to stay inside on the Sabbath?

You do realize that its entirely possible that the event never happened?

 

[DivineNames]

Those who don't trust or look for Him are completely lost and without hope.

Well perhaps, but perhaps (more likely) you are a fool who is “lost†to your silly fundamentalism.

 

[Drew]

The Manna and the law concerning the gathering of Manna was for the Hebrews while they were in the wilderness. It has no bearing on the Jews once the Manna stopped coming.

There is a marked difference between how the law applied to the Hebrews in the wilderness and when they came to possess the "promised land".

I will be interested to see how BB defends these assertions Biblically. For my part, I see the Bible as teaching that the Sabbath is to be kept forever:

"Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. 14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.'

Furthermore, lets look at the Exodus material that DivineNames posted in a little more detail:

"(27) Nevertheless, some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. (28) Then the LORD said to Moses, "How long will you refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? (29) Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out." (30) So the people rested on the seventh day. (Exodus 16:22-30 NIV)".

Note the content of verse 29 - "bear in mind that the Lord has given you the Sabbath, that is why on the sixth day He gives you bread for two day..."

To me it is clear that the "Manna laws" are not "special laws" that only apply during this narrow window of time. Instead they are an application of the general prohibition against work on the Sabbath. God clearly ties the rule about not gathering Manna on the Sabbath to his general rule. What we have is an example of application of the eternal Sabbath law to the specific situation the Hebrews were in at the time, not a "special" time-limited law. It will be hard to argue otherwise, since God clearly says "Bear in mind that the Lord has given you the Sabbath". This phrase strongly suggests a conection of the "manna law" to the more general, eternal Sabbath law. God gives 2 days supply of manna on the sixth day because of the general rule about the Sabbath. Is this not fairly clear?

 

[Drew]

I think we have to admit that yes, Jesus broke the letter of the Law in the whole Matthew 12 story. However, He was teaching us that code-moralty, "rules", have limited capability to direct us and that there are always exceptions. This does not make Jesus a sinner, it makes Him a teacher about the imperfection of Law. The world is too complex to allow for a prescriptive, rule-based approach to morality.

He is teaching us that love for God and each other is a higher principle than Law.

I think that this should be clear from Jesus's teaching about removing the sheep from the pit. The Sabbath law says no work on the Sabbath. It is not man's law so we cannot weasel out things this way, it is God's law. And hoisting a sheep out of a pit certainly seems to count as work. So I think it would be hard to argue that Jesus is not advocating breaking the letter of the Law. Yet Jesus suggests that to do so would not be sin.

Some will try to preserve a belief that Jesus did not break the letter of the Law by somehow arguing that pulling a sheep out of a pit is not work. That seems a little forced.

Suppose that heart surgery existed before the time of Christ. Do any of you honestly think that performing 12 hours of heart surgery on the Sabbath is not work. I have never perfomed heart-surgery, but if it doesn't qualify as work, I don't know what would.

Which one of you will say that to perform emergency heart surgery on the Sabbath would not be work?

Which one of you will say that God does not want emergency heart surgery to be performed on the Sabbath?

This is not rocket science - sometimes breaking the letter of the law is not sin.

 

[bibleberean]

Mark 3:2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.

Mark 3:3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.

Mark 3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.

Mark 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

Answer:

It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.


Jesus says that those who not believe in Him are lost...

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Mark 16:15-16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jesus must have been a "fundamentalist". :D

Those who have the evil gall to ask "how can you trust Jesus" or "Jesus was a sinner" are presently lost.

Fundamental truth! 8-)

 

[bibleberean]

The Sabbath is still in full effect to those who are under the law. It is applicable to unsaved Jews.

The Sabbath was for the Jews not for Gentiles.

Exodus 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

In the church is neither Jew nor Gentile but a "new creature".

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

There are presently three spritual entities in the world.

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

A short lesson in fundamental Christian doctrine... :D

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Are we learning? ;-)

 

[reznwerks]

judgement

The Manna laws did not apply. The only reason skeptics and atheists labor constantly to try and convince us that Christ sinned is because deep down they know judgement awaits them.

Too bad for them.

.

Seriously, why would skeptics and atheists do that? Do you really think if skeptics and atheists believed they were going to be judged negatively they would spend their time trying to convince others that Christ sinned.The fact of the matter is that a question was raised and and there are two sides of the issue. One is using the written examples of the bible and the other is using what they have been taught.

 

[DivineNames]

The Sabbath is still in full effect to those who are under the law. It is applicable to unsaved Jews.

The Sabbath was for the Jews not for Gentiles.

Exodus 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exodus 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

In the church is neither Jew nor Gentile but a "new creature".

Are you saying that Jesus and his disciples were not under the law at that time? Are you still trying to claim that gathering food on the Sabbath wouldn't in general be a problem? That it was only about manna?