Was Jesus against organized religion?

[Dave Slayer]

Was Jesus against organized religion?

 

[Tina]

^

..... define "organized religion".

.

 

[LostSoul]

I think he was more against the hypocrisy and traditionalism when it became so strongly observed that it, itself became a hurdle in one's relationship with God.

 

[Adullam]

yes..it was the death of Him.

 

[Free]

I think he was more against the hypocrisy and traditionalism when it became so strongly observed that it, itself became a hurdle in one's relationship with God.

Agreed. Jesus would not have been against organized religion in and of itself since he was a Jew and part of that very religion.

 

[Adullam]

Man seeks to organize for control of things. God rather gives life. Only God can do this. Anyone can organize something to death. We are to follow after life not organization.

 

[Free]

We are to follow after life not organization.

You erroneously presume that there is no life in organization when it is precisely organization that preserves the life. If there is no organization, the "life" can become whatever anyone wants it to be. This is evidenced by the fact that the early church was an organized religion.

 

[Cornelius]

We are to follow after life not organization.

You erroneously presume that there is no life in organization when it is precisely organization that preserves the life. If there is no organization, the "life" can become whatever anyone wants it to be. This is evidenced by the fact that the early church was an organized religion.

Could you be a little more specific as to how Jesus organized the church into a religion?

 

[Free]

By setting out certain beliefs that one is to follow if they are to follow him. This is clearly understood by the rest of the NT writers.

 

[Cornelius]

By setting out certain beliefs that one is to follow if they are to follow him. This is clearly understood by the rest of the NT writers.

That I have no problem with, because that is just Christianity, not "organized religion"

 

[justvisiting]

I suppose a question to ask is...Does God believe in an organized Church. I think if you seriously read the Bible, you will find:
1Co 12:27 And you are the body of Christ, and members in part.
1Co 12:28 And God set some in the church, firstly, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers, then works of power, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, kinds of languages.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of power?
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak languages? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way.
Seems pretty organized to me.
Act 6:2 And the Twelve called near the multitude of the disciples and said, It is not pleasing to us, leaving the Word of God, to serve tables.
Act 6:3 Therefore, brothers, look out among you seven men being witnessed to, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this duty. Does this sound arrogant? It wasn't.
Act 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the Word.
Act 6:5 And the saying pleased all the multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicholas, a proselyte of Antioch.
Act 6:6 They set these before the apostles. And having prayed, they laid hands on them.
Act 6:7 And the Word of God was increasing. And the number of the disciples in Jerusalem was multiplying exceedingly; even a great crowd of the priests obeyed the faith.
Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
(Note Stephen only waited on tables...but what an amazing saint)
Act 6:9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of those from Cilicia and from Asia, disputing with Stephen.
Act 6:10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke.
By the way...Stephen... was probably as responsible as anyone for the conversion of the that esteemed Apostle to the Gentiles...Saul (Paul).

Act 7:51 O stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so you do.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you have now been the betrayers and murderers;
Act 7:53 who received the Law through disposition of angels, and did not keep it.
Act 7:54 And hearing these things, they were cut to their hearts. And they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Act 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, looking up intently into Heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
Act 7:56 And he said, Behold, I see Heaven opened and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 And crying out with a loud voice, they stopped their ears and ran on him with one accord.
Act 7:58 And throwing him outside the city, they stoned him. And the witnesses laid their clothes down at the feet of a young man named Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, who was calling on God and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And kneeling down, he cried with a loud voice, LORD, DO NOT LAY THIS SIN TO THEIR CHARGE. (AS JESUS ALSO SAID) And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
I BELIEVE STEPHEN'S PRAYER AND MARTYRDOM, MOVED THE HAND OF GOD TO SAVE SAUL.
Act 22:20 And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was poured out, I also was standing by and consenting to his death, and holding the garments of those who killed him
Act 8:1 And SAUL was consenting to his death. And in that day there was a great persecution on the church at Jerusalem, and all were scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.
Act 8:2 And devout men buried Stephen and made a great mourning over him.

 

[dadof10]

I think he was more against the hypocrisy and traditionalism when it became so strongly observed that it, itself became a hurdle in one's relationship with God.

Well put. The Pharisees of Jesus' time took rituals and doctrine given by God and made them into something that, as you said, got in the way of our relationship with God. The rituals brought the Jews closer to God, and the doctrines were true. It was the application of both by men seeking power that caused all the problems. The doctrines were true and the rituals were holy, it was the bastardization of them by the people in power that Jesus was railing against.

 

[dadof10]

yes..it was the death of Him.

Certainly you aren't saying that Judaism was responsible for Jesus' death?

 

[justvisiting]

I think Jesus was against them (mostly because of their non-belief), not their organization.
As for the other side of the question. God definitely believes in an organized church. Let everything be done in order...and without confusion.
The Jews were not the only ones responsible for the death of Christ.
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

 

[Cornelius]

Well put. The Pharisees of Jesus' time took rituals and doctrine given by God and made them into something that, as you said, got in the way of our relationship with God. The rituals brought the Jews closer to God, and the doctrines were true. It was the application of both by men seeking power that caused all the problems. The doctrines were true and the rituals were holy, it was the bastardization of them by the people in power that Jesus was railing against.

Why does this sound so familiar ?

 

[dadof10]

Well put. The Pharisees of Jesus' time took rituals and doctrine given by God and made them into something that, as you said, got in the way of our relationship with God. The rituals brought the Jews closer to God, and the doctrines were true. It was the application of both by men seeking power that caused all the problems. The doctrines were true and the rituals were holy, it was the bastardization of them by the people in power that Jesus was railing against.

Why does this sound so familiar ?

I don't know, why don't you tell me?

 

[Adullam]

We are to follow after life not organization.

You erroneously presume that there is no life in organization when it is precisely organization that preserves the life. If there is no organization, the "life" can become whatever anyone wants it to be. This is evidenced by the fact that the early church was an organized religion.

There is a difference between order and organization. Order in the church is provided by those who have had divine visitation (episkope). Anyone can organize....but this is without divine inspiration. Christ is the Head of His church. Let no man organize it for Him!!!!

 

[Adullam]

yes..it was the death of Him.

Certainly you aren't saying that Judaism was responsible for Jesus' death?

Just the "ism" part if you get my meaning.

 

[Adullam]

Who are we to organize Christ's church for Him? Since when has Jesus relinquished headship over His own flock???

 

[Vince]

"You erroneously presume that there is no life in organization when it is precisely organization that preserves the life"

That is how I explain the survival of the Presbyterian Church.