Was Jesus against organized religion?

[Adullam]

"You erroneously presume that there is no life in organization when it is precisely organization that preserves the life"

That is how I explain the survival of the Presbyterian Church.

Do you have 400 year old congregants? what do you mean that the Presbyterian church has survived? If you are talking about a constitution that is apart from the rest of the church of they who believe....why is this a good thing?

Has faith in Christ survived? Has holiness survived? Has victorious testimony to the world survived? Has sacrifice of self for full maturity in Christ survived?

Who is interested in the survival of human reasonings and opinions? Aren't we trying to eliminate these for the sake of Christ?

It's the upside down reality that the world follows that is present in your reasoning.

The life of an organization whether it be a sacred sect we follow or the St. John's ambulance brigade...is not the same as the divine life that Christ brings to those who love Him and obey Him! Can you not see that?

 

[Adullam]

Christ does not want you to follow Him through the sects that divide His body. He wants you to follow Him outside the camp (s) in perfect liberty in the Spirit. Are you being called by men or by God?

 

[dadof10]

yes..it was the death of Him.

Certainly you aren't saying that Judaism was responsible for Jesus' death?

Just the "ism" part if you get my meaning.

I don't. How could the doctrines and rituals given by God have had a roll in killing His Son? It was the distortion of these by sinful people that drew Jesus' wrath, not the True doctrines themselves.

 

[Adullam]

A doctrine we hold can be correct, but it isn't truth unless it comes from Christ within us. The best way is still charity (love). The letter kills (literally) but the Spirit gives life. <><

 

[mondar]

The Gospels record that Jesus taught and visited Synagogues. While he opposed some of the wrong doctrine of certain synagogues he did attend. Jesus opposed the hypocracy and misuse of Temple worship, but did not disapproved of the Temple itself saying it should be a "house of prayer." Jesus was not against organized religion, but was against the misuse of organized religion.

After saying this, the problem with organized religion, is that when it becomes big enough, the real honest leaders will be pushed aside and it will be run by politicians.

 

[Adullam]

The Gospels record that Jesus taught and visited Synagogues. While he opposed some of the wrong doctrine of certain synagogues he did attend. Jesus opposed the hypocracy and misuse of Temple worship, but did not disapproved of the Temple itself saying it should be a "house of prayer." Jesus was not against organized religion, but was against the misuse of organized religion.

After saying this, the problem with organized religion, is that when it becomes big enough, the real honest leaders will be pushed aside and it will be run by politicians.

We are not against a building. We are against the powers and principalities that men invoke to their own advantage that inhabits these buildings. Men make a separate peace with the powers of darkness so that they may rule and have the pre-eminence. And the masses don't mind this. The politicians are they who manipulate the powers that be in order to "organize" the group around themselves.

Crime is also organized. Same process! Men work their way up through a set instituted order and take a place of prominence or a title that is recognized by the others. Does that make it godly? Quite the opposite!

 

[Free]

We are against the powers and principalities that men invoke to their own advantage that inhabits these buildings. Men make a separate peace with the powers of darkness so that they may rule and have the pre-eminence. And the masses don't mind this. The politicians are they who manipulate the powers that be in order to "organize" the group around themselves.

Generalize much? Jesus is not against organized religion.

Crime is also organized. Same process! Men work their way up through a set instituted order and take a place of prominence or a title that is recognized by the others. Does that make it godly? Quite the opposite!

Irrelevant.

 

[Adullam]

We are against the powers and principalities that men invoke to their own advantage that inhabits these buildings. Men make a separate peace with the powers of darkness so that they may rule and have the pre-eminence. And the masses don't mind this. The politicians are they who manipulate the powers that be in order to "organize" the group around themselves.

Generalize much? Jesus is not against organized religion.

Crime is also organized. Same process! Men work their way up through a set instituted order and take a place of prominence or a title that is recognized by the others. Does that make it godly? Quite the opposite!

Irrelevant.

Jesus who?

 

[Free]

 

[Cornelius]

He is asking which Jesus, because you are putting words in the mouth of some Jesus. It cannot be the Jesus of the Bible , because He never said that. Thus: Jesus who ?

 

[Free]

He is asking which Jesus, because you are putting words in the mouth of some Jesus. It cannot be the Jesus of the Bible , because He never said that. Thus: Jesus who ?

Uhh...I'm going to call this "the pot calling the kettle black". Jesus didn't say a lot of the things that you and Adullam are saying. How many times must others who disagree with your position--yet agree with much of historic, orthodox Christianity--be accused of putting words into Jesus' mouth or of not being a part of the "true and pure" church?

This fact remains:

Jesus was a Jew. This means he went to synagogues on a regular basis, observed Jewish customs, and all that "organized religion stuff," and most importantly for the sake of this discussion, never once said he was against organized religion.

You must have me mistaken with someone who puts words into Jesus' mouth.

I should also add that the very collection of books being used to say I'm putting words into Jesus' mouth was organized by organized religion, using certain criteria to determine which books to include and which not to include.

 

[Adullam]

He is asking which Jesus, because you are putting words in the mouth of some Jesus. It cannot be the Jesus of the Bible , because He never said that. Thus: Jesus who ?

Uhh...I'm going to call this "the pot calling the kettle black". Jesus didn't say a lot of the things that you and Adullam are saying. How many times must others who disagree with your position--yet agree with much of historic, orthodox Christianity--be accused of putting words into Jesus' mouth or of not being a part of the "true and pure" church?

This fact remains:

Jesus was a Jew. This means he went to synagogues on a regular basis, observed Jewish customs, and all that "organized religion stuff," and most importantly for the sake of this discussion, never once said he was against organized religion.

You must have me mistaken with someone who puts words into Jesus' mouth.

I should also add that the very collection of books being used to say I'm putting words into Jesus' mouth was organized by organized religion, using certain criteria to determine which books to include and which not to include.

Based on what you say, we should all be Jews then. This is the logical conclusion of one who wishes to emulate Jesus (before His ministry began that is).

On the other hand, if Jesus is calling men OUT of the systems of this world...let's call this "ecclesia" (a calling out) for arguments sake; then Jesus is not instituting a rival organized religion that is to compete with Judaism. He is calling us out of all worldly ways.

Judaism was the Old Testament way. The way of Christ in the NT is to forsake all to follow Him. That includes our religious preferences with it's pomp and ceremony.

 

[Free]

Based on what you say, we should all be Jews then. This is the logical conclusion of one who wishes to emulate Jesus (before His ministry began that is).

No, that is not at all the logical conclusion of my argument.

On the other hand, if Jesus is calling men OUT of the systems of this world...let's call this "ecclesia" (a calling out) for arguments sake; then Jesus is not instituting a rival organized religion that is to compete with Judaism.

Of course he isn't. No one is making that argument.

He is calling us out of all worldly ways.

Are you saying that Judaism and all of its constructs were worldly?

Judaism was the Old Testament way. The way of Christ in the NT is to forsake all to follow Him. That includes our religious preferences with it's pomp and ceremony.

The obvious problem is that your forsaking of organized religion is just your religious preference. Your position is actually much more in line with worldly thinking than you realize. Just look up "post-modern" and you'll figure it out.

The way of Christ is to forsake ungodly things and start thinking in terms based on his resurrection. It has little to do with organized religion.


Edited to correct quotes.

 

[Adullam]

...little or none! Precisely!

Judaism is the pinnacle of religions. This religion could not contain Christ. Judaism was plan B. People prefer the safety and anonymity of organized religions,,,so God made them one....while showing deeper spiritual truths through types and shadows. Pure genius!

I have been called out by Christ Himself to serve Him outside the camp. My only preference is to do His will. Whether or not coming out of the camp is post-modern or not is irrelevent. One is not saved by merely leaving organized religion. One must follow Christ in the Spirit. That will probably lead to one being led out or even kicked out of the sects. People hate the narrow way....and now more than ever!

 

[dadof10]

A doctrine we hold can be correct, but it isn't truth unless it comes from Christ within us.

Our subjective human reasoning is NOT the way God intended for us discern doctrinal Truth. If this were the case, everyone would come to the same conclusion on matters of faith and morals, which is not the case (not even close). Even a cursory reading of Scripture reveals the FACT that Jesus taught certain doctrines, chose men to teach others and founded an ORGANIZED CHURCH, which He promised to Guide to "all Truth". He never promised to guide each individual Bible reader to Truth, using subjective reasoning.

The best way is still charity (love). The letter kills (literally) but the Spirit gives life. <><

:amen , but this has nothing to do with doctrinal discernment or the OP.

 

[Adullam]

A doctrine we hold can be correct, but it isn't truth unless it comes from Christ within us.

Our subjective human reasoning is NOT the way God intended for us discern doctrinal Truth. If this were the case, everyone would come to the same conclusion on matters of faith and morals, which is not the case (not even close). Even a cursory reading of Scripture reveals the FACT that Jesus taught certain doctrines, chose men to teach others and founded an ORGANIZED CHURCH, which He promised to Guide to "all Truth". He never promised to guide each individual Bible reader to Truth, using subjective reasoning.

The best way is still charity (love). The letter kills (literally) but the Spirit gives life. <><

:amen , but this has nothing to do with doctrinal discernment or the OP.

It is precisely our subjective human reasoning that establishes organized religion. We do what we feel comfortable with. We adopt pagan practices and traditions and then bless them with holy water.

If you truly believe the Spirit gives life....then why not follow the Spirit?

Nowhere in the bible are we exhorted to follow Mother Church. We are called to follow Father God. It is the Spirit we are to be led by...not church edicts or creeds.

 

[dadof10]

On the other hand, if Jesus is calling men OUT of the systems of this world...let's call this "ecclesia" (a calling out) for arguments sake; then Jesus is not instituting a rival organized religion that is to compete with Judaism. He is calling us out of all worldly ways.

"A calling out" is not the definition of "ecclesia". In fact, according to the Brittanica Concise Encyclopedia, it means the exact opposite.

http://www.answers.com/ecclesia

(Greek, ekklesia: "gathering of those summoned")

 

[Adullam]

On the other hand, if Jesus is calling men OUT of the systems of this world...let's call this "ecclesia" (a calling out) for arguments sake; then Jesus is not instituting a rival organized religion that is to compete with Judaism. He is calling us out of all worldly ways.

"A calling out" is not the definition of "ecclesia". In fact, according to the Brittanica Concise Encyclopedia, it means the exact opposite.

http://www.answers.com/ecclesia

(Greek, ekklesia: "gathering of those summoned")

That statement is not accurate. Do more research about the actual meaning in the Greek and you will see this. The ecclesia is the gathered "called out" ones who displace the ruling principalities in a given area.

The Greek word "ecclesia" is correctly defined as: "The called-out (ones)" [ECC = out; KALEO = call]. Thus, you can see how this word was used to indicate a civil body of select (called, elected) people.

 

[Free]

The Greek word "ecclesia" is correctly defined as: "The called-out (ones)" [ECC = out; KALEO = call]. Thus, you can see how this word was used to indicate a civil body of select (called, elected) people.

That is one of the common fallacies people make who think they know Greek. Going to the root words of a given word does not necessarily give that word some meaning directly from the root words.

 

[dadof10]

It is precisely our subjective human reasoning that establishes organized religion.

It is subjective human reasoning that establishes Protestant churches, 1400 years after the founding of Christianity. The Catholic Church was established by Jesus and the Apostles.

We do what we feel comfortable with. We adopt pagan practices and traditions and then bless them with holy water.

Or we adopt non-biblical DOCTRINES, like sola-Scriptura, sola-fide and INVISIBLE CHURCH, and create thousands of "denominations" all claiming to teach the "Truth", while directly contradicting each other. This is where following "Christ within us" leads, confusion and contradiction.We should follow our properly formed consciences when it comes to morals, but we need a divinely established teaching body when it comes to doctrinal discernment. The "me and Jesus" mentality is non-biblical and goes against common sense.

If you truly believe the Spirit gives life....then why not follow the Spirit?

What you mean by "follow the Spirit" becomes, in reality, "follow my interpretation of Scripture". The Spirit guides to "all Truth". If everyone who claims to "follow the Spirit" came to the same conclusion on doctrinal issues, I would agree that God guides us by Biblical interpretation and subjective reasoning. This is FAR from the case, though.

Nowhere in the bible are we exhorted to follow Mother Church. We are called to follow Father God. It is the Spirit we are to be led by...not church edicts or creeds.

Nowhere in the Bible are we told to read and personally interpret Scripture to discern Truth. In fact, we are warned against it:

So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. (2Peter (RSV) 3)

Paul tells us to follow his teaching, his ORAL TEACHING, over and over again throughout Scripture, he NEVER tells us that all Truth is contained within Scripture or that we are to let "Christ within us" be the ultimate authority on Truth.

We are told to "follow Mother Church" in Acts 15. Here we have a DOCTRINAL dispute within the Church in Antioch. Paul and Barnabas took the dispute to "Mother Church" in Jerusalem. The issue was resolved and their decision was BINDING ON THE ENTIRE CHURCH, NOT JUST THE CHURCH IN JERUSALEM OR ANTIOCH.

As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem. 5 So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and they increased in numbers daily. (Acts (RSV) 16)

This is the Biblical model given by Luke for settling doctrinal disputes within the True Church. Ask yourself a question. Does this sound even remotely like the way you would settle disputes within your church? Where is the Antiochian Church told to "follow Christ within them" and settle it themselves? Following "church edicts and creeds" is how we are to follow the Spirit, because the Spirit leads the teaching body of the Church, not individual members, just like in Acts 15.