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Was Jesus Ever Known As The Son Of God Before He Was Born?

zotah

Member
I've been trying to find verses in the old testament to verify if Jesus was considered the Son of God in the Old Testament. I Have not been able to confirm this.

My question is: Did Jesus only become known as the "Son of God" after he was born on earth to Mary. Or was he always known as the "Son of God" through out time past.

If he is known as the "Son of God" before he came to earth, Is there any verses I could go to?

Or is the current established belief that it wasn't until he was born that he was first mentioned as the "Son of God"?

Let me know

Thanks,

Zotah
 
The Old Testament says very plain how it was going to go down



where - Bethlehem
by who - a virgin
gender - a boy
From - the house of judah / David
His birth would trigger a massacre of infant boys
ministry would include healing and miracles.
Despised by men, hated without cause.

in 500BC... 500 years before the messiah was born, the book of Zechariah is SO SPECIFIC it says he would be betrayed over thirty pieces of silver.


Jesus did all the things the old testament said he would do, He was how it said he would be. For Jesus to truly be the Messiah described in the Old Testament, He would have to fulfill every Messianic prophecy.

He did, eye witness accounts. proof. evidence.

:amen
 
ChevyRodeo said:
The Old Testament says very plain how it was going to go down



where - Bethlehem
by who - a virgin
gender - a boy
From - the house of judah / David
His birth would trigger a massacre of infant boys
ministry would include healing and miracles.
Despised by men, hated without cause.

in 500BC... 500 years before the messiah was born, the book of Zechariah is SO SPECIFIC it says he would be betrayed over thirty pieces of silver.


Jesus did all the things the old testament said he would do, He was how it said he would be. For Jesus to truly be the Messiah described in the Old Testament, He would have to fulfill every Messianic prophecy.

He did, eye witness accounts. proof. evidence.

:amen

I think zotah meant, was Jesus known as the son of God before he was in a flesh body.

He was a spirit before he came into the flesh body of Jesus. Was that spirit known as the "Son of God" prior to coming into that body? I believe that was his question.

If I'm reading correctly. lol
 
I think zotah meant, was Jesus known as the son of God before he was in a flesh body.

He was a spirit before he came into the flesh body of Jesus. Was that spirit known as the "Son of God" prior to coming into that body? I believe that was his question.

If I'm reading correctly. lol1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time:
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us;

1st Century AD
researcher
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Yes Researcher,

That is exactly what I'm asking.

Was Jesus known as the Son of God before he came as a baby in the flesh. I know he was know as "the WORD" in John 1:1. but is there any evidence that he was called "Son" in presant tence from the Old testament scrolls. I also know that He was fortold as the Son back in Isaiah 9:6 but that still doesn't show me that he was called the son before he came as a human being. AKA God in the Flesh or God with us in Matt.1:23
 
zotah said:
I think zotah meant, was Jesus known as the son of God before he was in a flesh body.

He was a spirit before he came into the flesh body of Jesus. Was that spirit known as the "Son of God" prior to coming into that body? I believe that was his question.

If I'm reading correctly. lol1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time:
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us;

1st Century AD
researcher
.
.
.
.
.
.
.


Yes Researcher,

That is exactly what I'm asking.

Was Jesus known as the Son of God before he came as a baby in the flesh. I know he was know as "the WORD" in John 1:1. but is there any evidence that he was called "Son" in presant tence from the Old testament scrolls. I also know that He was fortold as the Son back in Isaiah 9:6 but that still doesn't show me that he was called the son before he came as a human being. AKA God in the Flesh or God with us in Matt.1:23

I haven't seen it anywhere. Might take some searching.

Here's the verse about the beginning and sons.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

There were other sons, but I don't see Jesus being listed there.
 
Zotah - it's not there. Jesus was with the Father before he was 'born' of God's Spirit and found in the likeness of man, but as I said, a son is not a son until he has been born.
 
ChevyRodeo said:
The Old Testament says very plain how it was going to go down



where - Bethlehem
by who - a virgin
gender - a boy
From - the house of judah / David
His birth would trigger a massacre of infant boys
ministry would include healing and miracles.
Despised by men, hated without cause.

in 500BC... 500 years before the messiah was born, the book of Zechariah is SO SPECIFIC it says he would be betrayed over thirty pieces of silver.


Jesus did all the things the old testament said he would do, He was how it said he would be. For Jesus to truly be the Messiah described in the Old Testament, He would have to fulfill every Messianic prophecy.

He did, eye witness accounts. proof. evidence.

:amen

Yes but there are still His return to speak of. Joshua crossing the Jordan like Moises crossing the red sea.
 
Proverbs 30:4 says: "Who has ascended to heaven that he may descend? Who has gathered the wind in the hollow of both hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in a mantle? Who has made all the ends of the earth to rise? What is his name and what the name of his son, in case you know?"
 
nadab said:
Proverbs 30:4 says: "Who has ascended to heaven that he may descend? Who has gathered the wind in the hollow of both hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in a mantle? Who has made all the ends of the earth to rise? What is his name and what the name of his son, in case you know?"

That is a great scripture nadab - I'm surely having to think about that!
 
mutzrein said:
Zotah - it's not there. Jesus was with the Father before he was 'born' of God's Spirit and found in the likeness of man, but as I said, a son is not a son until he has been born.
what the book of daniel when the men shadrach,meshach, and abadnego were thrown in the fiery furnace. The wicked king nebuchanadazar proclamied that he saw a fourth man like unto the son of the holy gods.
 
Considering that the OT nowhere refers to Jesus, lack of any reference to him as 'son of God' is not the least bit surprising.


Finis,
Eric
 
Only in Eternity as seen in Rom. 4:17's last part of the Inspiration!
 
mutzrein said:
Zotah - it's not there. Jesus was with the Father before he was 'born' of God's Spirit and found in the likeness of man, but as I said, a son is not a son until he has been born.

True. He is always the visible form of God.
The express image.

The great I Am who appeared to Abraham, Moses, and others.
Jude 1:4-5 said:
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Exodus 33:11 said:
And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Job 42:1-5 said:
Then Job answered the LORD, and said, I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
 
mutzrein said:
nadab said:
Proverbs 30:4 says: "Who has ascended to heaven that he may descend? Who has gathered the wind in the hollow of both hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in a mantle? Who has made all the ends of the earth to rise? What is his name and what the name of his son, in case you know?"

That is a great scripture nadab - I'm surely having to think about that!

That is a good one...prophecy of His coming.
Proverbs 30:1-4 said:
The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, even the prophecy: the man spake unto Ithiel, even unto Ithiel and Ucal, Surely I am more brutish than any man, and have not the understanding of a man. I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy. Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
 
wavy said:
Considering that the OT nowhere refers to Jesus, lack of any reference to him as 'son of God' is not the least bit surprising.


Finis,
Eric
Names were given and changed to describe attributes. Emmanuel meaning God with us.
An angel came and told Mary and Joseph to name the child Jesus..meaning Jehovah is salvation.
So Jesus was both.
Isaiah 7:14 said:
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Matthew 1:23 said:
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
 
I think the Original Post posses an interesting question and just wanted to add a couple of considerations. I think Glorydaz presents a principle that one can consider in a greater depth (or not...)

ONE MIGHT CONSIDER EUPHEMISMS FOR JESUS IN THE QUEST FOR REFERENCES :

The earliest Christian Apologist Justin Martyr, in his “dialog with Trypho the Jew†accuses the Jews of removing from the early texts, references to the Messiah that would have made it clear that it was Jesus who was the messiah, (and Justin then gives examples of changes made). It is difficult to tell to what degree Justin is correct in his claim and what impact this might have on your question, if any at all. However, if I could, might I simply observe that you might want to consider the various euphemisms by which the Messiah was known rather than simply looking for the word “son†(which is dependent upon the translator, to some extent). If someone refers to “the father of our nationâ€, an american will know who this means though George Washington’s name is not mentioned (The same is true of “The King†as a reference to “Elvis†or “The father of the telephoneâ€, etc).



ONE MIGHT CONSIDER WHICH OLD TESTAMENT IN WHICH ONE WILL LOOK FOR SUCH REFERENCES? THE EASTERN OT HAS A DIFFERENT CANON
Another point is that "the son" IS mentioned in wonderful detail in the Enoch literature which remains firmly in the eastern othodox Christian Canon. Thus, in the Eastern Christian Orthodox Church for example(45 million) - (e.g. Ethiopia) where Enoch remains firmly in the Canon), their Christians WILL read specific references to the “Son of Man†before Birth and the records of the pre-mortal Jesus being Chosen as the future Messiah of men.

For example, when Enoch see’s God the Father among other spirits in prison he says “
“I saw the one whom belongs the “chief of daysâ€, he who is of primordial days. And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual....His countenance was full of grace...†Enoch asks an angel, “Who is this...â€. The angel answers Enoch “This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs the righteousness and with whom righteousness dwells...for the Lord of the Spirits has chosen him, and he is destines to be victorious before the Lord of the Spirits in eternal uprightousness. This Son of Man whom you have seen is the one who would remove the kings and the mighty ones from their comfortable seats....†(1 Enoch 46:1-6)

There are references to God the Father giving his son tasks to do : “And God said to his only begotten son,...†(The Apocalypse of Sedrach 9:1-2 &5) (Though Jesus is NOT yet born in this verse, he is still references as the Only Begotten, in reference to what he WILL do after his birth.)

Such sacred literature is replete with References to the pre-mortal “Son of Man†(a euphemism for the Messiah), for example :
“(Then) their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones. At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits, the Before-Time (Lit “before the beginning [or “headâ€] of days,â€), even before the creation of the sun and the moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. (1 Enoch 481-7)â€

In the early ascension literature, there are many euphemistic references to the pre-mortal messiah. The Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah text records Isaiah saying of his vision of heaven :
“And I heard the angel who led me, and he said to me, “this is the Most High of the high ones, who dwells in the holy world, who rests among the holy ones, who will be called by the Holy Spirit in the mouth of the righteous the Father of the Lord.â€.... 10:6


The Jewish Dead Sea Scrolls (4q) also include texts such as “THE INHERITANCE OF THE FIRSTBORN, THE MESSIAH OF DAVID 4q369 which speak of the pre-mortal messiah as a son (the “firstbornâ€) ( remember that there are lacunae in these records representing gaps that are present) :
“And all…and You tested Your good judgments for him to…in everlasting light, and You appointed him as Your firstborn son. There is none like him, as a prince and ruler in all Your inhabited world…the crown of the heavens and glory of the clouds You have placed on him…and the angel of Your peace in his congregation. And he…You gave him righteous statutes, as a father gives a son….his love. (THE INHERITANCE OF THE FIRSTBORN, THE MESSIAH OF DAVID 4q369)


Again, in another pre-mortal description regarding the messiah will be
“…For the heavens and the earth shall listen to His Messiah and all which is in them shall not turn away from the commandments of the holy ones….Will you not find the Lord in this, all those who hope in their heart? For the Lord seeks the pious and calls the righteous by name. Over the humble His spirit hovers, and He renews the faithful in His strength. For He will honor the pious upon the throne of His eternal kingdom, setting prisoners free, opening the eyes of the blind, raising up those who are bowed down….and the Lord shall do glorious things which have not been done, just as He said.†(REDEMPTION AND RESURRECTION 4Q521)

There are a vast number of sideways references that speak of the Messiah and then divert to historical references that do not refer to his name, yet still refer to him. For example :
“…in his youth, his words will be those of a man who does not know anything until he knows the three books…Then he will be wise and will know many things…vision to come to him on his knees…old age shall be his…his purposes, because he is the chosen one of God. His birth and the spirit of his breath…his purposes will last forever…THE BIRTH OF THE CHOSEN ONE 4Q534-536)



I do believe that the Early Christian claim that the Jews edited their scriptures were probably correct but it is debatable as to what was edited and how much affect it would have had on the Jews and their recognition of Jesus as the Messiah. It is an interesting subject but very removed from the Original Posts question.

Clearly
 
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