Was jesus God

[boogie]

I'm a Muslim, I'm thinking about leaving Islam and become a Christian , I'm not preaching Muslim faith

But this keeps on troubling me, Please someone answers this for me , I asked on a different Christian forums and they replies were " Jesus is God and I don't give a crap if you become a Christian or not" they never answered my question and very rude

please don't reply just saying "Jesus is god" and than not answer my question

I did not type any of the 1 to 5 points below , one of my Muslim friends wrote it for me because I wanted to leave Islam and his been trying to convince not to.

so if you can answer the 1 to 5 points that would be wonderful


Thank you very much

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. God is All Knowing.....but Jesus was not
When speaking of the day of judgement, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." Mark 13:32,
and Matt 24:36. But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the day of judgement would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.

2. God is All Powerful.....but Jesus was not
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." St. John 5:19. Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." St. John 5:30. But God is not only all-powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

3. God does not have a God.....but Jesus did have a God.
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "l ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." St. John 20:17. He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27:46. If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless not as I will but as thou wilt." Matt 26:36-39. Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

4. God is an invisible spirit.....but Jesus was flesh and blood
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said. "No man hath seen God at any time." St. John 1:18. '"Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." St. John 5:37. He also said in St. John 4:24. "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own.
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in St. John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as good master in Matt 19:17, Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." St. John 8:42. Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God,when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine be done" and in St. John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which hath sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.

 

[Imagican]

Exellent points.

Here's MY answer:

Jesus IS The Son of God.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[kingdavid]

I'm a Muslim, I'm thinking about leaving Islam and become a Christian , I'm not preaching Muslim faith

But this keeps on troubling me, Please someone answers this for me , I asked on a different Christian forums and they replies were " Jesus is God and I don't give a crap if you become a Christian or not" they never answered my question and very rude

please don't reply just saying "Jesus is god" and than not answer my question

I did not type any of the 1 to 5 points below , one of my Muslim friends wrote it for me because I wanted to leave Islam and his been trying to convince not to.

so if you can answer the 1 to 5 points that would be wonderful


Thank you very much

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. God is All Knowing.....but Jesus was not
When speaking of the day of judgement, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." Mark 13:32,
and Matt 24:36. But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the day of judgement would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.

2. God is All Powerful.....but Jesus was not
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." St. John 5:19. Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." St. John 5:30. But God is not only all-powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

3. God does not have a God.....but Jesus did have a God.
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "l ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." St. John 20:17. He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27:46. If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless not as I will but as thou wilt." Matt 26:36-39. Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

4. God is an invisible spirit.....but Jesus was flesh and blood
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said. "No man hath seen God at any time." St. John 1:18. '"Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." St. John 5:37. He also said in St. John 4:24. "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own.
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in St. John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as good master in Matt 19:17, Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." St. John 8:42. Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God,when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine be done" and in St. John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which hath sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.

most christians cannot answer your question correctly because of false teaching and doctrine and misunderstandings of scripture. That has been a topic of debate for 2000 years, how to accurately explain this subject. or they cannot rightly divide the Word of Truth.


the best way to explain to you the relationship between Christ and God is best shown in John 14:11 and 20. Jesus said, believe me that I am in my Father and the Father in me.

and in that day(this day)you shall know that I am in my Father...so even he expresses that this point would not be understood by christians until this day which is the reason for all the error and confusion. it wasn't previously revealed to man or made known.


God dwelled in Christ in the Flesh. it was both of them yoked together in the self-same person but you didn't see 2, you only see ONE. That relationship was the same in the Spirit but just the vice vercy. Christ dwelled in his Father, that heavenly body-the Word. Christ was previously hidden in God and not made known until he stepped out or was hewn out from God. ALL sons are in their father but Christ was unique, because he was actually manifest and dwelled in his father b4 he bacame a man in a body of flesh. no other man had that experience b4 they came in the flesh. So, Jesus was God by the fact that God dwelled in him and in the Spirit, christ dwelled in the Spirit-the Word. God and Christ were not seperate from each other. they were One but not One like your finger One. they were a dual person. Christ is the Son of God, not God the Son nor the Son-God.


THE best man of God that I have heard explaing or revealing this truth in our day was bro. William Branham. you can find a few videos on youtube about him

 

[Paidion]

The first thing to understand is how are people using the word "God" when they say that "Jesus is God".

1. If they mean "Jesus is the 'only true God', the Creator of all things", then the arguments you posted can effectively counteract that view for the reasons given. I have the idea that that is what Muslims think Christians are saying. Some Christians do believe that. They are known as "Oneness" or "modalists". Jesus Himself indicated in His prayer to His Heavenly Father that the Father alone was "the only true God", and that He, Jesus, was something other.

And this is lasting life, that they might know you the only true God, AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent. John 17:3

2. Trinitarians believe that the one God is "the Trinity", whom they conceive to be a compound, tri-partite Being composed of three divine Individual Persons. Each of these Individuals is believed to be God in the sense that each Individual is part of the Trinity.

3. The early Christians believed that the one true God, begat a Son before all ages, the first thing He ever did. He begat only one Son, and so this Son was another, just like His Father, and was therefore divine. So He was and is God or Deity in that sense. Perhaps this could be more clearly expressed by saying that He was divine in the same sense as His Father was divine. But He and His Father were two distinct divine Individuals and yet had precisely the same divine attributes, and were also one in purpose.

The writer to the Hebrews in chapter 1, verse 3, states that Jesus bears the very stamp of His Father's essence. So identical was that essence, that Jesus was able to say, "He who has seen me, has seen the Father."

 

[Imagican]

Paidon,

While I won't argue the point, what I would like so say is this:

Oftentimes we can see the prophets offering PROOF of their prophecy by stating that the words they offered WERE from God. And often they would state that the GROUNDS by which they offered proof were IN THE WORDS THEMSLEVES; The Word of God.

I propose that when Christ made the statement that "He who hath seen me hath seen the Father" are more in line with a statement like this: "You Have SEEN the Spirit of GOD through MY words and works".

We have far too many statements offered that NO ONE has EVER SEEN THE FATHER for them NOT to have relevance. For we have been TOLD that our fragile bodies could NOT withstand the GLORY of God's presence physically. What this means exactly is speculation. But what it could well mean is that God is more comprised of ENERGY so powerful that our bodies could NOT withstand exposure to Him.

But there IS The Spirit of God that IS able to commune with man. This has happened continually since creation.

Christ may well have simply been offering those that asked that IF they KNEW the One True God, then they should KNOW that Christ DID His Work here on Earth. In this respect, those that witnessed Christ's actions and listened to His words, since they WERE the Work of God and the Words of God, they had, in essence SEEN the representative of The Father HIMSELF.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Free]

boogie,

Historical, orthodox Christianity holds to the view that Jesus is God Incarnate, the only True God in human flesh. That is the Christian position.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

All of your points become clear when properly understood from what the Bible further reveals about Jesus:

Phi 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phi 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Phi 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Jesus, although he was God, willingly submitted himself to the Father and died so that we can have forgiveness for our sins and be reconciled to God. In submitting and becoming human, Jesus emptied himself of his use of his divine nature.

 

[epistemaniac]

the friend who was trying to prevent you from leaving Islam probably got this list of objections from http://www.islamic.org.uk/jesusgod.html
or
http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/prophets/08.htm

In any case, Jesus willingly limited His deity when he came to earth as a servant:

Philippians 2:5-8 (ESV) 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

Since Jesus willingly limited Himself to become "incarnate", as a weak human, it stands to reason that certain aspects of His deity were necessarily as limited as the human form that He took on. Jesus left behind the glory that he had with the Father before the world began, this fact alone answers most of your objections, or the objections of the friend you have that provided you with this list of typical objections.

John 17:5 (ESV) And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."

Jesus was the perfect God-Man, fully God and fully man.... so as far as 3) goes, yes, Jesus the man lived out a perfectly sinless life on this earth, and as such, He worshiped God. But the fact that He did so does not change the fact that Jesus also has a type of essential union with God that bespeaks of His deity.... His preexistence, His forgiving of sins committed against God, something only God could do without committing blasphemy, His raising Himself from the dead, His claim of equality with the Father, that one day every knee will bow before Him, that He is the Alpha and Omega, that glory that rightly only belongs to God is also rightly given to Him as worship, etc.... all tell me, anyway, that Jesus is one in essence with the Father, that He must be God in the same way that the Father is God. Yet since there is only one true God, the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit) must all coexist in such a way as that there is only one being. This is what the doctrine of the Trinity teaches, one being possessing the attributes we associate with God, yet this one being has 3 persons who, while being one, still reveal differences among them, significant differences such that we can speak of their being 3 persons.... .

John 1:1-3 (ESV) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God."

Titus 2:13 (ESV) waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

etc

as far as 4) goes... have you ever seen Jesus' spirit? ;) That aspect of God that is in union with God the Father that Jesus possess, is not material. God is spirit, but God also took physical forms throughout biblical history. This took place at an ultimate and final way in Jesus Christ.

As far as 5) goes, see above response to points 1 and 2..... another analogy is this: in a husband and wife relationship the husband is said to be the "head" of the woman, he is in this sense, greater than the woman. The husband is responsible to God in ways that a woman is not. BUT this does not mean that a man is at some intrinsic level "greater" than woman. Man and woman just have different roles to play in the administration of the family. Well, so is it the case for the Trinity. Jesus willingly placed Himself in subjection to the Father and His will, and in this sense, the Father is great than the Son. But the Son is intrinsically (ontologically) of the same worth
as the Father and the Holy Spirit. One being, three persons.

hope this helps....

blessings,
ken

 

[Captain Sarcastic]

Jesus is the Son of God and God the Son.

 

[Paidion]

Trinitarians believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

In the scriptures, we find the phrase "God the Father". But NOWHERE do we find either "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit".

 

[francisdesales]

I'm a Muslim, I'm thinking about leaving Islam and become a Christian , I'm not preaching Muslim faith

But this keeps on troubling me, Please someone answers this for me , I asked on a different Christian forums and they replies were " Jesus is God and I don't give a crap if you become a Christian or not" they never answered my question and very rude

please don't reply just saying "Jesus is god" and than not answer my question

I did not type any of the 1 to 5 points below , one of my Muslim friends wrote it for me because I wanted to leave Islam and his been trying to convince not to.

so if you can answer the 1 to 5 points that would be wonderful


Thank you very much

Boogie,

What may be of use to you in meditating on this "doctrine" of Christianity, ask yourself WHY is this Trinity concept so important to Christians. The Church teaches it is THE most important of truths that God has given to mankind. To understand this, we must ask "Why is this so important? What do we learn about God or ourselves and our relationship to God by this revelation of God being a Trinity?"

This is something that has not been addressed on these discussions about whether God is a Trinity or not. It is a rationalist approach that attempts to use "bible alone" in most cases without consideration of WHY did the men of 100-300 AD argue and discuss this very issue - concluding that there was a special relationship between Jesus and God...

If I may, from my reading and meditation on the subject, I have found that "Trinity" best explains several very key concepts of who God is and His relationship with man...

1. God loves us. So much so that He became one of us. To suffer and die to save us. That should move men to some serious thought about who God is. He is not some strict Father waiting for us to mess up so He can cast lightning bolts at us. He is not some Being who uses us for His own purposes. HE IS WILLING TO SUFFER FOR US OUT OF LOVE!

God didn't send a representative down here, a "mere" prophet. He came Himself, subjecting Himself to ALL the problems that we face as humans. As such, He is a most wonderful mediator, this Jesus Christ, God AND man.

2. God and His actions. God's Love is so overflowing, so ready to reach beyond Itself, that it goes beyond itself to Create Life and desires to share that life with us, drawing us INTO the Eternity that He exists within. Creation and Redemption and Sanctification have a muted meaning without this concept of God guiding and leading and prompting mankind. He desires that we are ALL saved.

3. Finally, Love itself. Does love exist within a Monad? Love, by our experience, exists when One loves a Beloved. Being a perfect reflection of Self, the Son is eternally begotten outside of time, the Object of Love of the Father within the Godhead Itself. This Love is so efficacious, so wonderful, that the Love of the Beloved and the Lover brings forth Another. God's Love didn't need to "wait" for time before it bore fruit! The Love of God provides fruit in of itself - the Holy Spirit, who brings Love to each and every one of us, calling us to our true human selves, a life of love and recognition that we were made for God and are only happy, truly, when we abide in God Himself.

Trinity is not just merely an esoteric doctrine. It is at the heart of what we believe - who God is and is the basis for our relationship between mankind and the God who loves.

Regards

 

[MarkT]

The simple acquire folly. Truly, if a man would be faithful to the knowledge of who Jesus was, then he would build on what was revealed to Peter. He would make it his rock. It would be the foundation of the church. But it isn't. Instead the faithless build on their own inventions. Why? Because they are faithless. Because they can't even be faithful in the smallest detail. Because the fear of God isn't in them. Because they love their own inventions more than they love God.

Knowing the fear of God, no man would try to build on the 'Trinity', no matter what any so called church said. No rational man would. But the faithless aren't rational. And so they build their house on sand.

 

[Solo]

I'm a Muslim, I'm thinking about leaving Islam and become a Christian , I'm not preaching Muslim faith

But this keeps on troubling me, Please someone answers this for me , I asked on a different Christian forums and they replies were " Jesus is God and I don't give a crap if you become a Christian or not" they never answered my question and very rude

please don't reply just saying "Jesus is god" and than not answer my question

I did not type any of the 1 to 5 points below , one of my Muslim friends wrote it for me because I wanted to leave Islam and his been trying to convince not to.

so if you can answer the 1 to 5 points that would be wonderful


Thank you very much

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. God is All Knowing.....but Jesus was not
When speaking of the day of judgement, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." Mark 13:32,
and Matt 24:36. But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the day of judgement would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.

2. God is All Powerful.....but Jesus was not
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." St. John 5:19. Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." St. John 5:30. But God is not only all-powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

3. God does not have a God.....but Jesus did have a God.
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "l ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." St. John 20:17. He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27:46. If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless not as I will but as thou wilt." Matt 26:36-39. Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

4. God is an invisible spirit.....but Jesus was flesh and blood
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said. "No man hath seen God at any time." St. John 1:18. '"Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." St. John 5:37. He also said in St. John 4:24. "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own.
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in St. John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as good master in Matt 19:17, Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." St. John 8:42. Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God,when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine be done" and in St. John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which hath sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.

Boogie,

Jesus said that in order for one to see and enter the kingdom of God, one must be born again; born of the flesh in the physical birth, and born of the Spirit in the spiritual birth. The only way to be born again is by the Holy Spirit birthing you into His kingdom. Those who come to the light, which is Jesus Christ, are given the revelation of truth by the Holy Spirit. We are condemned by sin, and by faith in Jesus Christ, are made alive by being born of the Holy Spirit. This occurs when we believe the Holy Spirit as He reveals to us that we are condemned in our sin, and we need a Savior. Jesus died on the cross to die in our place, and he raised himself from the dead, and ascended to heaven. Believe that Jesus paid your sin debt so that you may have everlasting life, and you will be changed into a new creature, born again, born of God.

May God Almighty give you His wisdom and understanding and faith so that you may gain the gift of everlasting life.

God bless you,
Michael

 

[Paidion]

God loves us. So much so that He became one of us. To suffer and die to save us. That should move men to some serious thought about who God is. He is not some strict Father waiting for us to mess up so He can cast lightning bolts at us. He is not some Being who uses us for His own purposes. HE IS WILLING TO SUFFER FOR US OUT OF LOVE!

God didn't send a representative down here, a "mere" prophet. He came Himself, subjecting Himself to ALL the problems that we face as humans. As such, He is a most wonderful mediator, this Jesus Christ, God AND man.

I could never understand how Trinitarians can make statements such as some from the quote above. I've heard not only Catholic, but non-Catholic Trinitarians make them.

Here is the logical problem. Trinitarians say that there's one God and that He is a Trinity. This Trinitarian God, the only God, consists of three Divine Persons. So why do Trinitarians say that HE is a Trinity. Why do Trinitarians not say "THEY are a Trinity"? But worse! In the quote above, Francis asserts that God "became one of us." What? The Trinity became one of us? I thought it was only the Son who became one of us? Francis also states that God didn't send a representative down here, but He [God] came Himself. What??? The Trinity came down and was born as a human being? Was it not the Son of God who became a human being?

Oh, but you say, The Son of God Is God, and so God became a human being. WHAT???? The Son of God is the Trinity? If you don't mean that the Son of God is the Trinity, then what DO you mean?
If you are using "God" in a different sense than Trinity, when you say "The Father is God; The Son is God; The Holy Spirit is God," then you must believe in three Gods.

 

[Solo]

God loves us. So much so that He became one of us. To suffer and die to save us. That should move men to some serious thought about who God is. He is not some strict Father waiting for us to mess up so He can cast lightning bolts at us. He is not some Being who uses us for His own purposes. HE IS WILLING TO SUFFER FOR US OUT OF LOVE!

God didn't send a representative down here, a "mere" prophet. He came Himself, subjecting Himself to ALL the problems that we face as humans. As such, He is a most wonderful mediator, this Jesus Christ, God AND man.

I could never understand how Trinitarians can make statements such as some from the quote above. I've heard not only Catholic, but non-Catholic Trinitarians make them.

Here is the logical problem. Trinitarians say that there's one God and that He is a Trinity. This Trinitarian God, the only God, consists of three Divine Persons. So why do Trinitarians say that HE is a Trinity. Why do Trinitarians not say "THEY are a Trinity"? But worse! In the quote above, Francis asserts that God "became one of us." What? The Trinity became one of us? I thought it was only the Son who became one of us? Francis also states that God didn't send a representative down here, but He [God] came Himself. What??? The Trinity came down and was born as a human being? Was it not the Son of God who became a human being?

Oh, but you say, The Son of God Is God, and so God became a human being. WHAT???? The Son of God is the Trinity? If you don't mean that the Son of God is the Trinity, then what DO you mean?
If you are using "God" in a different sense than Trinity, when you say "The Father is God; The Son is God; The Holy Spirit is God," then you must believe in three Gods.

Paidion,

Have you been born again? If so, when were you born again, and what is your testimony?

Thanks,

Solo

 

[Paidion]

Way to go, Solo! If you have no explanation for a person, avoid the issue by questioning his relationship with Christ.

 

[Solo]

Way to go, Solo! If you have no explanation for a person, avoid the issue by questioning his relationship with Christ.

Paidon,

Plenty of Scripture has been posted which has shown the truth of the triune Godhead. The only people that I have run into that do not know Jesus Christ as God are those who have not been born again, including myself before I was born again. Those who have not been born again and do not believe that Jesus is God only view God from a "natural" man perspective of God in the administive functional perspective of God being two persons and an impersonal spirit of God, as opposed to a combination of God's administrative functional and ontological perspective of the three person Godhead.

If you have not been born again, you will never understand the spiritual things of God Almighty. You will only perceive things from a physical, fleshly perspective thinking spiritual things as being foolishness.

Jesus spoke explained this in the following verses:

• 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Matthew 13:13-15

 

[mutzrein]

Way to go, Solo! If you have no explanation for a person, avoid the issue by questioning his relationship with Christ.

Paidon,

Plenty of Scripture has been posted which has shown the truth of the triune Godhead. The only people that I have run into that do not know Jesus Christ as God are those who have not been born again, including myself before I was born again. Those who have not been born again and do not believe that Jesus is God only view God from a "natural" man perspective of God in the administive functional perspective of God being two persons and an impersonal spirit of God, as opposed to a combination of God's administrative functional and ontological perspective of the three person Godhead.

If you have not been born again, you will never understand the spiritual things of God Almighty. You will only perceive things from a physical, fleshly perspective thinking spiritual things as being foolishness.

Jesus spoke explained this in the following verses:

• 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Matthew 13:13-15

Well here Solo I have run into at least 3 people that spring to mind immediately that I know belong to Christ, who are born again. Strange I would say that none condemns, as you do, those who do not agree. If indeed the issue that we contend here can only be revealed by God as you intimate - oh never mind . . .

 

[Rick W]

I'm seeing a lot of mud-slinging from both camps in threads regarding the Trinity.
If this trend doesn't stop soon topics about the Trinity will be disallowed for 30 days and all current threads on the topic will be locked.

 

[Solo]

Only those who are not born again are condemned, and they are condemned because they have not come to the light and believed (John 3:18). I condemn no one, but proclaim the Word of God, for it is the Word of God that judges all things. To say that I condemn others is a false witness, and is typical of the accuser of the brethren.

Those who have believed the spirit of error cannot confess that God is come in the flesh and are not of God. I will not sling mud, but I will proclaim the Word of God.

• 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 1 John 4:1-5

God's Word cannot be any more simple than the following verse that declares that Jesus Christ is God with us in the flesh. And the enemy continually lies and deceives who he can.

• Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matthew 1:23

For those who continually attack the doctrine of the trinity, know that the doctrinal statement of this forum declares:

• There is one true God, eternally existing in three persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

AND

• We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

And any stand against this basic tenet of our Faith is considered a hostile act.

• 1 - This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Statement of Faith

 

[Rick W]

To all:
There are many that do not hold to every tenet contained in our SoF. There is no problem discussing other viewpoints as evidenced by our allowing those discussions in the first place.
What I'm becoming concerned about is the bickering from conclusions drawn from both camps. I'm not opposed to discussion but when things begin to get out of hand then I become concerned.
Judgment calls from both sides don't help in our endeavor to provide a non-confrontational atmosphere on the forums. Sure, there will be disagreement but when that disagreement becomes more than simply opposition or a differing viewpoint posted then I believe the staff must intervene.