For God So Loved The World

[Enlightenedtruth]

Actually, I think, at bottom, both passages speak to the same thing: Disobedience to God's First and Great Commandment.

Thank you....your response does shed a bit of a different light on my thoughts

If you are a parent.....are you able to make your children love you....and can you give us some tips on how that is done?

 

[donadams]

Who said there is no Holy Spirit?
Who said one God means three Gods.

If the father is God
And the spirit is God then there must be two gods?

 

[donadams]

Who said there is no Holy Spirit?
Who said one God means three Gods.

Christ and His apostolic church the only authority say one God in three different persons!

 

[Enlightenedtruth]

Though the Pharisees were hyper-careful to obey God's laws, they were actually in constant disobedience to His will, never obeying His First and Great Commandment. And so, they are cast out at the Final Judgment as strangers to the Lord.

Sorry, but I had an additional thought and question.....

The Pharisees never saw Jesus as the Lord or God Himself.....so how could Jesus have been speaking of the Pharisees in that passage?

 

[donadams]

Fuzzy logic?
First of all, the word “person” is NOT a biblical term.
It is a term brought into Scripture by the idiotic philosophers who knew nothing of truth.
Anyone with a face is a person.

Non-sense the word person appears many times in scripture

Time to disavow your microscopic later day fundamentalist sect that is teaching errors!

 

[Tenchi]

If you are a parent.....are you able to make your children love you....and can you give us some tips on how that is done?

I'll do better than this, I'll point you to the basis upon which God says to us He initially motivates our love of Him.

1 John 4:16-19
16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
19 We love because he first loved us.

Initially, God incites our natural but contingent (you love me and I'll love you) human love, by showing incredible, undeserved love toward us, offering His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sin, rescuing us from the justice and wrath of a holy God and bringing us into reconciliation and fellowship with Him.

But God doesn't leave us on this level, relying on our fickle, sin-fouled human love as the basis for our relationship with Him. Instead, He imparts to us His own divine love in the Person of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Romans 5:5
5 ...God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. (See also: Galatians 5:22)

Neat, eh? I think so, anyway.

 

[Tenchi]

Sorry, but I had an additional thought and question.....

The Pharisees never saw Jesus as the Lord or God Himself.....so how could Jesus have been speaking of the Pharisees in that passage?

In which passage?

 

[Enlightenedtruth]

In which passage?

Matthew 7:21-23

I don't really see what part the Pharisees would have played in what Jesus spoke of.....those men rejected him from the start.....

As for the Pharisees obeying any part of God's Law....that's a different question altogether. After Moses....men who claimed to be "prophets" changed God's Law to suit themselves, and then the Pharisees being "Holier than thou" made there own changes to God Law

 

[Tenchi]

Matthew 7:21-23

I don't really see what part the Pharisees would have played in what Jesus spoke of.....those men rejected him from the start.....

I'm not sure what you mean, here. Are you saying you don't see how the Pharisees are in view in what Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23?

Part of why it is reasonable to think they were in Christ's mind when he told his story in Matthew 7:21-23 is that he said essentially the same thing in the five verses immediately preceding Matthew 7:21-23 that he said very clearly about the Pharisees in Matthew 12:22-37.

Matthew 12:30-37
30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit.
34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.
36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,
37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Matthew 7:15-23
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

In any case, the Pharisees are a perfect, concrete example of people thinking they are doing the will of the Father but who are, in fact, not doing His will. Like the people in Christ's story in Matthew 7:21-23, the Pharisees were keeping lesser, external commands of God, but in their hearts were far from God. And so, the Pharisees were actually not doing the will of the Father. It's not possible, you see, to be truly, properly obeying any of God's laws while disobeying the First and Great Commandment. Paul the apostle explained this to the believers at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Paul says here plainly what Christ implied in his story in Matthew 7: Anything we do for God that doesn't arise from a love for Him (and others) is spiritually useless. Everything between us and God starts with the First and Great Commandment. And so, the Pharisees were exactly the kind of people in Jesus's story in Matthew 7:21-23, doing all sorts of good things, moral things, in God's name but who were strangers to Him nonetheless.

As for the Pharisees obeying any part of God's Law....that's a different question altogether. After Moses....men who claimed to be "prophets" changed God's Law to suit themselves, and then the Pharisees being "Holier than thou" made there own changes to God Law

Right. But this doesn't alter the things I've pointed out. Instead, the legalism of the Pharisees only makes their rejection by God at the Final Judgment all the more appropriate.

 

[Enlightenedtruth]

Right. But this doesn't alter the things I've pointed out. Instead, the legalism of the Pharisees only makes their rejection by God at the Final Judgment all the more appropriate.

So I read all the Scripture who referenced.....not once did I see the word Pharisees......whereas the word does appear in

Matthew 3:7
Matthew 12:14
Matthew 23:1-12
Matthew 27:62
Acts 23:8

Why would Jesus specifically use the word Pharisees in those various chapters....but not say that clearly in Matthew 7:21-23 when speaking of those who will claim to have known him, done works in his name, and even cast out "demons" in his name.....

My understanding of Matthew 7:21-23 actually applies to this modern day......when a preacher says," in Jesus name, I forgive all your Sins"......the preacher is not Jesus......and I don't recall any passage in the Bible where Jesus told his Disciples to speak with his Authority.

 

[Tenchi]

Why would Jesus specifically use the word Pharisees in those various chapters....but not say that clearly in Matthew 7:21-23 when speaking of those who will claim to have known him, done works in his name, and even cast out "demons" in his name.....

It seems to me because it was plainly evident that the Pharisees well-qualified as those about whom he was speaking n his story. Remember, Jesus already taken serious jabs at them several times earlier in his sermon that began in chapter 5 and concluded in chapter 7:

Matthew 5:20
20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus went on to speak directly to things for which the Pharisees were well-known, plainly poking at their hypocritical "righteousness":

Matthew 6:1-2
1 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
2 “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

Matthew 6:5
5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

Matthew 6:16
16 “And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

Just to be confident that Jesus had at least the Pharisees in mind in these verse consider what he said of them in Matthew 23:

Matthew 23:1-7
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,
2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat,
3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.
4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.
5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,
6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues
7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.

In any case, your concern over the absence of an explicit reference to the Pharisees in Matthew 7:21-23 is a bit of "straining at a gnat." The important thing, I think, is that the people in Matthew 7:21-23 were cast out from God for not obeying the First and Great Commandment, which they clearly would have done since they made their case for entrance into God's heavenly kingdom on the basis of their good deeds done in His name. What better case could they have made than to have said to God, "We loved you with all of our being and so, kept your First and Greatest Commandment!"? To the Jewish audience still under the Old Covenant to whom Jesus was speaking, this would have been the ultimate in obedience to God and the first thing that they would have thought of in "doing the will of the Father in heaven," the command issued repeatedly to the Israelites in the OT (Deuteronomy 6:5; 10:12; 11:1, 13, 22; 13:3; 19:9; 30:6; Joshua 22:5; 23:11, etc.)

 

[Enlightenedtruth]

"straining at a gnat."

I wear bifocals, without them I doubt I'd see the gnat at all.....

Thank you for your replies; its always interesting to understand the perspective of others......I do not claim any of these "doctrines" that men have created....and it is helpful to understand what other men (women) believe.....I tend to say the word men in most post, but I do not mean to exclude women who might read my nonsense

 

[donadams]

This is not a thread on the Trinity. Back to the topic, please.

Sorry

 

[donadams]

Fuzzy logic?
First of all, the word “person” is NOT a biblical term.
It is a term brought into Scripture by the idiotic philosophers who knew nothing of truth.
Anyone with a face is a person.

If you would like to continue please go to the apologetics forum and trinity sub-forum I created a thread there on the Christian doctrine! Or Private message me if you like, we were a bit off topic here. Thanks

 

[donadams]

Who said there is no Holy Spirit?
Who said one God means three Gods.

You have my permission to post in the Catholic forum, there is thread christian doctrine about the trinity, we can discuss there if you like.
Thks

 

[Tenchi]

I do not claim any of these "doctrines" that men have created....

Which "doctrines" do you mean? You appear to have your own doctrines. I suppose you believe they alone are exempt from being "created by men," somehow?

 

[Enlightenedtruth]

Which "doctrines" do you mean? You appear to have your own doctrines. I suppose you believe they alone are exempt from being "created by men," somehow?

To follow my Father, to follow God....is a bit different from what men have done. Men take bits and pieces of the Bible to create their own narrative...to find meaning in some things of the Scriptures that are not clear (confusing). I've had some people tell me the OT was the 'old covenant" between men and God; while the NT is the "new covenant".....but I believe God only made one covenant with men.

In John 10:35 Jesus said the scriptures cannot be broken....then in Matthew 12:31-32 Jesus supposedly said all sin is simply forgiven except for blasphemy of the holy spirt.....but wouldn't that break the 10 Commandments, and make them pointless......I asked a man about this in a different forum, and his response was that old covenant no longer applied.

But in my own memories, sin is and has always been punished. I would point you to the story of the cripple, a man who lost his ability to walk during his lifetime as a punishment for sin. The physical body belongs to my Father, and any ailment that is not caused by man (example car accident) is His Work. The fact that medical science has overcome some of the normal punishment for sin is a matter soon to be addressed.

 

[Tenchi]

To follow my Father, to follow God....is a bit different from what men have done. Men take bits and pieces of the Bible to create their own narrative...to find meaning in some things of the Scriptures that are not clear (confusing). I've had some people tell me the OT was the 'old covenant" between men and God; while the NT is the "new covenant".....but I believe God only made one covenant with men.

What does God's word actually say on the matter?

In John 10:35 Jesus said the scriptures cannot be broken....then in Matthew 12:31-32 Jesus supposedly said all sin is simply forgiven except for blasphemy of the holy spirt.....but wouldn't that break the 10 Commandments, and make them pointless......I asked a man about this in a different forum, and his response was that old covenant no longer applied.

Well, what does the context of these passages, both immediate and general, allow one to say about them? Usually, when this question is answered, apparent contradictions dissolve.

But in my own memories, sin is and has always been punished. I would point you to the story of the cripple, a man who lost his ability to walk during his lifetime as a punishment for sin. The physical body belongs to my Father, and any ailment that is not caused by man (example car accident) is His Work. The fact that medical science has overcome some of the normal punishment for sin is a matter soon to be addressed.

??? I don't think your view here is well-supported by Scripture. Here's just one example:

John 9:1-3
1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
2 And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

 

[Enlightenedtruth]

Well, what does the context of these passages, both immediate and general, allow one to say about them?

I'm sorry, but I don't believe you can have it both ways.....either sin is forgiven, which means God giving the 10 Commandments was a "mistake"....or the 10 Commandments are correct and some man added the other, so that no one could question him as he stated, "I'm guided by the Holy Spirit".

John 9:1-3 is correct, in a sense.....the man may not have sinned in that life, but that does not mean the soul did not carry sin.

Very few Churches, and a few Catholic's still believe in rebirth of the soul....even though God has tried to correct that a few times.

If a man commits suicide in this life; in the next he might be born as a child with cancer. While no one wants to see a child suffer.....the lesson to the soul is to appreciate the life that is given, or it can be very brief and painful.....and the works of God might be displayed in him.

For the specific quote in John 9.....perhaps the soul in the previous life had taken great pleasure in being a peeping tom, therefor loss of his sight......but it was the soul; and not the child or parents who committed the sin at the time the question was put to Jesus

 

[donadams]

I'm sorry, but I don't believe you can have it both ways.....either sin is forgiven, which means God giving the 10 Commandments was a "mistake"....or the 10 Commandments are correct and some man added the other, so that no one could question him as he stated, "I'm guided by the Holy Spirit".

John 9:1-3 is correct, in a sense.....the man may not have sinned in that life, but that does not mean the soul did not carry sin.

Very few Churches, and a few Catholic's still believe in rebirth of the soul....even though God has tried to correct that a few times.

If a man commits suicide in this life; in the next he might be born as a child with cancer. While no one wants to see a child suffer.....the lesson to the soul is to appreciate the life that is given, or it can be very brief and painful.....and the works of God might be displayed in him.

For the specific quote in John 9.....perhaps the soul in the previous life had taken great pleasure in being a peeping tom, therefor loss of his sight......but it was the soul; and not the child or parents who committed the sin at the time the question was put to Jesus

On what planet do they teach such things?

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: