Was Job sinless?

[biblecatholic]

I'm still unsure about some others and whether or not they lived sinless lives. Enoch and Elijah and even John the Baptist.... I'm still working on these... any thoughts?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I'm still unsure about some others and whether or not they lived sinless lives. Enoch and Elijah and even John the Baptist.... I'm still working on these... any thoughts?

I heard John Martignoni talk about that once. I love John to death, but I couldnt swallow that one.

Ever hear any of his 60 second lessons people put on Youtibe? Check this one out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGfx1Qqs8BI

 

[Rick W]

If you describe what it looked like I may be able to help you find it.
:smt102

I'm serious. I said that only four people were ever sinless: Adam and Eve were created that way, although they fell into sin, and the New Adam and the new Eve - Jesus & Mary - were sinless. I could have sworn I posted that here. Maybe I'm just getting senile.

Ah
No, not senile. I remember the post. It was here.
I don't believe in sympathetic senility. :-D

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Well? Where did it go?

 

[biblecatholic]

I'm still unsure about some others and whether or not they lived sinless lives. Enoch and Elijah and even John the Baptist.... I'm still working on these... any thoughts?

I heard John Martignoni talk about that once. I love John to death, but I couldnt swallow that one.

Ever hear any of his 60 second lessons people put on Youtibe? Check this one out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGfx1Qqs8BI

I love John Martignoni and his society......

I'm still working on what I believe about it.... it's not one of those big issues for me but I do lean towards the idea of them being born with original sin but not committing actual sin

 

[stranger]

I think Job had an honest relationship with God and knew he wasn't being punished for doing some particular sin. Job was struggling with why he was being dealt such suffering given his upright life. But, I don't think he was sinless in respect to the Lord.

After Job heard God's answer, he realized he needed forgiveness. Listen to Job's replies to God:

Then Job answered the LORD :
"I am unworthyâ€â€how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
I spoke once, but I have no answerâ€â€
twice, but I will say no more." Job 40:3-5


"You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'
My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes." Job 42:4-6

Veritas,

Thanks for your reply - indeed if Job 'repented in dust and ashes' why would he repent if he did not sin? I am actually not saying that Job never sinned. Even if Job 42:4-6 is used to prove he did then it is fair to say God accepted his repentance and forgave and cleansed him from all sin and unreighteousness. So the later 'restoration' of Job leaves him even more blessed than when we first encounter him in the beginning of the book.

My argument is clearer if we go back to Job before Satan moved against him.

Does the description that God gives us of Job leave you with the impression that Job was sinner? God described him as blameless and upright, what sinner is ever given that sort of commendation from God?

 

[stranger]

I think God Himself answered Job who pretty much asked the same question throughout the book. God answered him alright but it wasn't what Job was expecting.
Job accepted the answer. What if God answered this topic in the same manner He answered Job? Would that be enough?

In all good conscience I raise this topic. I would be content to 'see' God and 'live' - that would be enough. What if our voice, as Christians, cannot be distinguished from the voice of the Accuser of the Brethren with respect to Job? That would not be enough for me.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Wasn't Job the first book of the Bible ever written?
Wait, that can't be right, I thought Moses penned the first five books first.
Which is it?

 

[stranger]

Wasn't Job the first book of the Bible ever written?
Wait, that can't be right, I thought Moses penned the first five books first.
Which is it?

At a guess the first 5 books. Job and Abraham are consider to be patriarchs.

 

[stranger]

The possibilty of two states in man. . .

Adam as created was without sin so he was sinless. This was the norm for humanity,To borrow John Owen's expression of 'state' Adam existed in the state of 'sinlessness'. After Adam sinned he existed in a 'sinful' state. So Adam illustrates the existence of both sinlessness and sinfulness in the physical body. I use the word physical deliberately because many today believe that to be without sin (wholly sanctified) we have to be in our glorified bodies. If you think about it the resurrection body can also exist in two states 'corrupted and pure' corresponding to the eternal destinies of man.

It can therefore be surmised that anthropologically speaking it is possible for a human being to exist in two distinct states - and since the theology that best describes a complete freedom from sin uses the word 'wholly' or 'completely' sanctified - I shall follow suit. This is less provocative then the term 'perfect' sanctification that John Wesley used. The question is - how is it possible?

It is presupposed that the work of Christ is both necessary and able to deal with the sinful nature, the core of which is original sin, while we are still in the physical body. You don't have to wait for the glorified body to be free from all sin. I appreciate that this is not common but it is not impossible and it is real. But this is possible only through the Gospel - faith. . . baptism and new birth - many push these benefits of the Gospel into the age to come. More about that later.

It is also presupposed that the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit is both necessary and able to affect a new nature . After all - this is exactly what Paul meant when he said: it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. That 'complete' sanctification can occur in a short time interval as opposed to the popoluar doctrine of progressive sanctication needs to be addressed more fully. More on that later also. While the experience of complete sanctification is not commonplace I believe that the scriptures attest to it. Corresponding with rarity of it is the rare personal testimony - which is all the more precious because it is seldom found today.

To return to Job - you will be hard pressed to find fault with a man like Job who I can say was 'completely' sanctified before he was glorified.

In the next post I hope to comment on the problem of perfection.

 

[Saint Leslie]

Wasn't Job the first book of the Bible ever written?
Wait, that can't be right, I thought Moses penned the first five books first.
Which is it?

It is commonly believed that the Book of Job was written as early as or even before Moses penned the Torah. Job probably would have lived prior to the events of the Exodus because he himself appears to be the priest of his own house.

The book of Job to me is one of the best gems of Scripture that we have for the following reasons.

1. Job is called blameless and perfect by God. God actually is bragging to Satan about how a man like Job can be righteous. Thus it shows us that a person doesn't have to sin all the time but can indeed a holy and righteous life in God.

2. It gives us alot of insight into the character of Satan and how he interacts with the Lord. What we can gather here is that he apparantly CAN come into the presence of the Lord and speak with him on things. It also shows us that there appears to be some meeting time and place where all the "sons of God" aka the Angels come to meet with God for whatever purpose. Apparantly Satan can come to these meetings as well.

3. God and Satan basically make a BET on Job wither or not he will sin and curse God. The Lord gives Satan free reign to do all sorts of terrible things to Job, seemingly for no purpose at all. I frequently use Job as an example against the "Health and Wealth" Gospel that some of my Protestant brothers preach. They say "Well if you're serving God and staying true to him you're going to just be blessed". Job will be relieved to hear that :P

4. Finally, and this is the main part why I like it. If a man who lived before the Old Testament was written, before the New Testament was written, could according to God live a blameless life before Him. Then how much more can I, a modern day Christian who has access to both the Old and New Testaments and is filled with the Holy Ghost live a pure and righteous life by the Grace of God? Notice Paul says that "For all have sinned" Not for all DO sin. You don't have to sin, sanctification helps us in this after we are Justified by the Lord Jesus Christ.

The main aspect to the whole "Well Job repented" arguement is this. The word repent doesn't always have to mean a person sinned. In Exodus after the Israelites have sinned against God, God wants to wipe them all out and start all over again with Moses lol. Moses begs God not to do this and tells him if he's going to kill them all he better just kill him too! God then "repents" or changes his mind about what he was going to do to the Israelites. The same is as in Job I feel. Job questioned (naturally) why God was allowing him to suffer. He has not done anything to offend God! God then interceeds and gives him a gentle rebuke and basically tells him that a person doesn't have the right to question what he does. God then explains and reveals more of himself and his majesty to Job than he ever knew! Job then "repents" or takes back his questioning of why God allows this to happen.

The whole central theme of Job is thus. Why do good people suffer? I always get tickeled with my Protestant contempories when one of them preaches on Job and always the end point is the same. "Yeah and Job got TWICE what he had!" I would argue that what Job really gained at the end of the ordeal was an increased understanding of God and that he grew spiritually. Think of it, he actually spoke directly with Jehovah God. So Job is a role model for me, after of course my Lord Jesus Christ.

Peace be to you all from a new poster.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

.....Stated positively, my understanding of 'sinless' is:

1. Being a new creation.
2 .Abiding 'in Christ'.
3. Walking in the Spirit (even if for a season).
4. Appropriating the benefits of the Gospel.

Holy Cow!! And you guys blast us for saying Mary is sinless? By that definition, a whole BUNCH of people are sinless. Heck, with that list, we could make Mother Theresa a goddess.