Sinless To Be Saved

[GodsGrace]

" Apart from Him we can do nothing."

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

"for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

How does one become saved?

Step 1.
God chooses you
Step 2
God prepares your heart to receive the Gospel
Step 3
God sends someone to preach the Gospel
Step 4 God softens your heart so that you can repent and believe.

It's 100% God's work. Not one bit of effort for human pride. Nothing to hang your hat on.

After that, comes growing obedience to God's law. The process called sanctification. Again, God's work not ours.

Why then are we subject to God's judgment? Because He is the sovereign God and we have no standing before Him to complain about anything.

He hardens your heart so as not to believe? That's His prerogative to do so, you're an object lesson for those to whom He gives mercy.

If nothing else makes you tremble before God, that should.
God's ways are not our ways and He is under no obligation to explain Himself or work in a way that makes sense to us.

God is sovereign over salvation, He saves who He wants to save and that's the end of it. Those He wants to save are saved and they can make their lives harder by being less obedient but they cannot escape His mercy.

Stop trembling before God and start loving Him.

How sovereign is YOUR God onlysaved?

He's AFRAID to give mankind free will.

Doesn't sound very sovereign to me.

 

[GodsGrace]

You don't even read the verses that teach you are "saved by Grace through faith". YES----There are a lot of things Jesus said to DO. But NONE OF THOSE THINGS SAVE YOU. You are saved TO DO THOSE THINGS!! That's what I have (and many others) been trying to explain to you through Scripture.

I'll give you another set of scriptures:

"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
NOT by works of righteousness WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." (Titus 3: 4-8)

NOTE VERSE 8: "THEY WHICH HAVE BELIEVED IN GOD MIGHT BE CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS". It DOES NOT say anything about being saved by good works----it says that those WHO ARE SAVED should be careful to MAINTAIN good works.

You refuse to see this. You can put (50) more verses up about what we are supposed to DO as Christians and I will totally agree with you----but we don't DO these things TO BE SAVED!! We do them BECAUSE we are ALREADY SAVED!!

So?
See what it says in the very verses YOU posted.....:

This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." (Titus 3: 4-8)


It's GOD telling you to do good works.
Why are you fighting against God?

You won't find any verse in the NT that states anything different.
What you'd have to find is a couple of verses that state that we are to do NOTHING in order to be saved.

Jesus said the opposite of this, leaving us with many commandments.

I NEVER said we are not saved by grace.

I SAID:

God demands out obedience.

If you don't agree....take it up with Jesus.
(find some verses that support disobedience to Jesus).

 

[GodsGrace]

At least to an extent yes and it is perfectly with in His power, right and justice to do so. Remember He is not obligated to save any of us. The Bible however is clear, there is an elect.

How is God JUST IF He's the one choosing who will be saved and does not give everyone the same chance?

What does JUSTICE mean onlysaved?

And, yes, there is an elect.
Most times it means the Jews (Hebrews, Israelites).
Sometimes it means US....
Anyone can be saved that wants to be saved...
but there's a condition:

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Acts 16:31
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,

Because Jesus said he was...

"Today you'll be with me is paradise "

Yes Paul was saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. His suffering had absolutely nothing to do with his salvation and none of the verses you posted indicate otherwise.

I'm sorry you think so highly of yourself that you think you can do enough good or suffer enough sacrifice to earn your way to heaven.

donadams doesn't think so highly of himself.
He believes we were taught by Jesus to obey His commands.

Perhaps it's YOU that thinks so poorly of Jesus that He does not even require obedience.

"Blessed is the man who's transgressions are forgiven, the one who's sin the Lord doesn't count against him"

Adam and Eve in the garden their redemption was entirely God's work.

Really?
God accepted one gift but not the other.
Why do you think that is?

Genesis 4:3-8
3So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground.
4Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering;
5but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell. 6Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
7“If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”
8Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

IF redemption is all God's work....why was one gift rejected?
Does God reject His own work??
If you say because God predestined Cain to fail...
think again.

See what Genesis states:

Verse 7
7“If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

Please note:

God told Cain IF YOU DO WELL....
IF YOU
DO WELL
See...it was up to CAIN to do well...NOT God.

and

God told Cain he must master sin crouching at the door.
Cain MUST MASTER SIN....

It is Cain that must master sin...
NOT God.

It's always God's work.. why?
Because we "all have Gone astray" we all " are altogether worthless "

Again,,,maybe YOU are worthless...
I'm a child of God.

1 John 3:1
1See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God;

"There is no one who seeks God"

No one seeks God?

God does not agree with you.
He exhorts all to seek Him...

Matthew 6:33​

33But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.​

Hebrews 11:6​

6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

1 Chronicles 16:11​

11Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!

Jeremiah 29:13​

13You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Proverbs 8:17​

17I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.


There are plenty more...
maybe you could post 3 or 4 verses that state that God does NOT want us to seek Him?

Do you understand how bad we are?
There is a reason we need a savior. It's not to make us better.. it's because we cannot save ourselves.

This is what you posted above:

"There is a reason we need a savior. It's not to make us better.. "

You believe Jesus died so we could NOT be better?

I don't believe I need to post any verses....
You've said enough to bury your belief system.

 

[GodsGrace]

At least to an extent yes

To WHAT EXTENT does God choose who will be saved???

He either chooses or He does not.

and it is perfectly with in His power, right and justice to do so. Remember He is not obligated to save any of us. The Bible however is clear, there is an elect.

Because Jesus said he was...

"Today you'll be with me is paradise "

Yes Paul was saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. His suffering had absolutely nothing to do with his salvation and none of the verses you posted indicate otherwise.

I'm sorry you think so highly of yourself that you think you can do enough good or suffer enough sacrifice to earn your way to heaven.

"Blessed is the man who's transgressions are forgiven, the one who's sin the Lord doesn't count against him"

Adam and Eve in the garden their redemption was entirely God's work.

It's always God's work.. why?
Because we "all have Gone astray" we all " are altogether worthless "
"There is no one who seeks God"

Do you understand how bad we are?
There is a reason we need a savior. It's not to make us better.. it's because we cannot save ourselves.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Faith alone is not taught in the bible.
What IS taught is that we must obey God.
Jesus left us with many things to do,,,
with many teachings.

He spent over 3 years teaching the §Apostles...
if faith were all that is needed, it would have taken only a week or two.

What keeps us saved is obeying God to the best of our ability.
Some will come on these Forums and proclaim that our works are a result of our faith.
Well, OF COURSE!
Unbelievers are not REQUIRED to obey God...
Believers are REQUIRED to obey God.

I've heard many say that we can sin and stray away from God and still be saved.
This is not what Jesus taught and not what Paul taught.

Jesus said this:
Matthew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Paul said this:
Romans 2:5-8
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

I believe that if one is saved they naturally want to obey God and the works will naturally come forth otherwise one is not even changed and that change comes with salvation the new man the born again so if one says they casn sin and still be saved they are not changed.

That change is vital otherwise your a Christian by title only

 

[Blain DeCastro]

At least to an extent yes and it is perfectly with in His power, right and justice to do so. Remember He is not obligated to save any of us. The Bible however is clear, there is an elect.

Because Jesus said he was...

"Today you'll be with me is paradise "

Yes Paul was saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. His suffering had absolutely nothing to do with his salvation and none of the verses you posted indicate otherwise.

I'm sorry you think so highly of yourself that you think you can do enough good or suffer enough sacrifice to earn your way to heaven.

"Blessed is the man who's transgressions are forgiven, the one who's sin the Lord doesn't count against him"

Adam and Eve in the garden their redemption was entirely God's work.

It's always God's work.. why?
Because we "all have Gone astray" we all " are altogether worthless "
"There is no one who seeks God"

Do you understand how bad we are?
There is a reason we need a savior. It's not to make us better.. it's because we cannot save ourselves.

I don't understand I never posted any verses and I certainly do not think highly of myself in any way it is quite the opposite in fact and as for the elect the scriptures say he desires that all come to Christ

The Bible indicates that God desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4 says, "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.", signifying God's universal will for salvation. While God desires all to be saved, the Bible also acknowledges that not all will choose salvation, highlighting the concept of free will

But notice how it says all that word alone says it all

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe that if one is saved they naturally want to obey God and the works will naturally come forth otherwise one is not even changed and that change comes with salvation the new man the born again so if one says they casn sin and still be saved they are not changed.

That change is vital otherwise your a Christian by title only

You're right.
The problem here is that some come onto these forums and state that one does not have to change....
another member just stated this right here.

IOW,,,we could be just like before,,,keep on sinning,,,and we will still be saved.

They all save we do good works BECAUSE we are saved...but then they go on to make very unbiblical statements.

Pay attention from now on....you'll see that I'm correct on this.

I like what you said:
CHANGE IS VITAL

Yes. But some don't think so but still define themselves as Christian.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

You're right.
The problem here is that some come onto these forums and state that one does not have to change....
another member just stated this right here.

IOW,,,we could be just like before,,,keep on sinning,,,and we will still be saved.

They all save we do good works BECAUSE we are saved...but then they go on to make very unbiblical statements.

Pay attention from now on....you'll see that I'm correct on this.

I like what you said:
CHANGE IS VITAL

Yes. But some don't think so but still define themselves as Christian.

Yes there is a difference between a Christian by heart and a Christian by title
it is shocking to me that anyone would say they can still be how they once were and be a Christian do they even know what being born again is I wonder?

 

[onlysaved]

To WHAT EXTENT does God choose who will be saved???

He either chooses or He does not.

It could be that there is an elect who are chosen and some who come to faith but are not called. I don't think that's the case but I haven't ruled it out.

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

So much for freewill.

Who ever God picks WILL come to Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

It could be that there is an elect who are chosen and some who come to faith but are not called. I don't think that's the case but I haven't ruled it out.

If you're going to be a Calvinist onlysaved...
then be one.

Here's what John Calvin taught:

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
The Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5


We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction.
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 7


And as to this "calling" to which you referred....
I'll post this -

There will be no ambiguity in it, if we attend to what our former remarks ought to have made clear--viz. that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation.

Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8


Some God enlightens only for a while and then He abandons them.
There goes OSAS or the Perseverance of the Saints....
HOW can one know he is saved for sure until his end comes??

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

So much for freewill.

The bible is chock full of free will.
The Father gives those who come to Him...
COME TO HIM....
COME....see, you have to GO TO GOD....
Go is an action word....
you must DO something...
YOU must do it.


Those who come to God HE gives to Jesus for salvation.
Jesus is the Savior.

Who ever God picks WILL come to Jesus.

God picks.
We become part of the elect.

But there's a HOW and it's not God picking and choosing....

BTW,,,you never explained what JUSTICE is.

This is the HOW:

John 3.16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


Acts 16:31
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,


We are told to believe,,,
and we will be saved.

Our choice.

 

[Fish153]

So?
See what it says in the very verses YOU posted.....:

This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men." (Titus 3: 4-8)


It's GOD telling you to do good works.
Why are you fighting against God?

You won't find any verse in the NT that states anything different.
What you'd have to find is a couple of verses that state that we are to do NOTHING in order to be saved.

Jesus said the opposite of this, leaving us with many commandments.

I NEVER said we are not saved by grace.

I SAID:

God demands out obedience.

If you don't agree....take it up with Jesus.
(find some verses that support disobedience to Jesus).

You are not listening GodsGrace. Yes--Yes--he says "they which have believed" should be careful to "maintain good works". But the verses preceding that tell you you are NOT SAVED BY GOOD WORKS. You are "saved by Grace through faith". The verses say we are saved "NOT by any righteous works we have done, but by God's mercy". You refuse to read that and accept it. SALVATION HAS A RESULT: Good works! That's what James means when he says "faith without works is dead". He is saying---you can "say" you are SAVED. But if you are truly SAVED your good works will show it!!! Once again---we are not saved BY Good works---we are saved UNTO good works. That is what Ephesians 2 and Titus 3 are teaching! Read them again.

 

[Fish153]

I believe that if one is saved they naturally want to obey God and the works will naturally come forth otherwise one is not even changed and that change comes with salvation the new man the born again so if one says they casn sin and still be saved they are not changed.

That change is vital otherwise your a Christian by title only

Blain---Yes---that is exactly what James is teaching. "Faith without works is dead". James is NOT teaching that one is saved by their works. He is teaching that the TRULY SAVED person will SHOW FORTH GOOD WORKS----if not, he is not really a Christian at all.

HOWEVER, What GodsGrace is teaching is that one is saved by doing good. No--the Bible does not teach that. Ephesians and Titus teach us that our works do not SAVE us---it is all of Grace and Mercy. To teach otherwise is to teach a false Gospel. We are SAVED UNTO GOOD WORKS----not BY OUR WORKS.

 

[Free]

Faith alone is not taught in the bible.

It is taught throughout the NT. It is the only true gospel.

What IS taught is that we must obey God.

Not for salvation--that would be the false gospel Paul warns about in Gal. 1.

Jesus left us with many things to do,,,
with many teachings.

Yes, but not for salvation. Jesus said many things, including:

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

Joh 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. (ESV)

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (ESV)

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (ESV)

That is, salvation is by faith alone.

 

[Free]

You're right.
The problem here is that some come onto these forums and state that one does not have to change....
another member just stated this right here.

IOW,,,we could be just like before,,,keep on sinning,,,and we will still be saved.

They all save we do good works BECAUSE we are saved...but then they go on to make very unbiblical statements.

Pay attention from now on....you'll see that I'm correct on this.

I like what you said:
CHANGE IS VITAL

Yes. But some don't think so but still define themselves as Christian.

Where in this thread was it stated that one does not have to change?

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Blain---Yes---that is exactly what James is teaching. "Faith without works is dead". James is NOT teaching that one is saved by their works. He is teaching that the TRULY SAVED person will SHOW FORTH GOOD WORKS----if not, he is not really a Christian at all.

HOWEVER, What GodsGrace is teaching is that one is saved by doing good. No--the Bible does not teach that. Ephesians and Titus teach us that our works do not SAVE us---it is all of Grace and Mercy. To teach otherwise is to teach a false Gospel. We are SAVED UNTO GOOD WORKS----not BY OUR WORKS.

It is not taught anywhere in scripture that our works save us or keep us saved that would mean one could boast of their salvation because of their deeds rather than the grace of God and the cross. So if that is what God's grace is teaching I would have to disagree

 

[Free]

It is not taught anywhere in scripture that our works save us or keep us saved that would mean one could boast of their salvation because of their deeds rather than the grace of God and the cross. So if that is what God's grace is teaching I would have to disagree

Agreed. There is no essential difference between saying good works save us and good works keep us saved. The end result is that our good works save us, which is explicitly denied.

Salvation by works is a false gospel. Salvation by faith in Christ and good works is just as false.

 

[Blain DeCastro]

Agreed. There is no essential difference between saying good works save us and good works keep us saved. The end result is that our good works save us, which is explicitly denied.

Salvation by works is a false gospel. Salvation by faith in Christ and good works is just as false.

I see it this way if the fruits of the spirit is the product of being saved so then is obedience and works they are the fruit of being born again not anything that can or does save us that is backwards and I know there are those who believe that works do this but I have not seen anywhere in scripture where it says this or implies it.

I would welcome scripture that does but unless one can show it in his word all it is is their own beliefs.

 

[onlysaved]

If I'm going to be a calvinist, I'll be in some great company.

 

[onlysaved]

* John 15:16: "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you."
* Ephesians 1:4-5: "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will."
* Romans 8:29-30: "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."
* Romans 9:11-13: (Referring to Jacob and Esau) "Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' Just as it is written: 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'"
* Acts 13:48: "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."
* 2 Timothy 1:9: "He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time."

 

[for_his_glory]

but not "faith alone"!
Abraham had to leave His land and sacrifice His son!

Moses had to build the ark!

David, Joshua etc all had to put their faith into action!

thks

What about death bed confessions of faith accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. For that matter, what about the thief on the cross in whom confessed Jesus as being Lord and Savior and Jesus told him he would be in paradise with Him that day.

Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.