Was Judas Iscariot ever 'saved'?

[handy]

You are correct. The people who died before Christ and are going to heaven are those already chosen before the creation of the world to go to heaven. All "holy" people in the OT had received God's Spirit. In the OT, the Holy Spirit wasn't permanently indwelling. God dispensed it at whim. Only after Christ's death did God send the Holy Spirit to all who want it (his elect who are only known by God) to permanently dwell inside them.

And in John 17:2. Jesus talks specifically about Judas: "None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture will be fulfilled." So there is no reason to argue this point unless one wants to argue with Jesus.

I don't think anyone is argueing the point that Judas is lost now. The point of discussion isn't whether or not Judas is now lost, but rather was his name ever in the Book of Life in the first place.

 

[jgredline]

Handy
When read through the scriptures we read that Judas stole money, rebuked mary for worshiping Jesus with her ''expensive'' perfume...In the little we do know about Judas, he was a bad man.....Jesus chose him same as he did all the others....Jesus knew who he chose....Jesus also tells us that many will say....''Lord did we not cast out devils in your name?'' And what is Jesus answer to them...''I never knew you''..

There is no indication that Judas was ever saved, but quite the contrary..There is evidence that he was not.....

So really this is a none issue...Judas never lost his salvation, because he was never saved...How can you loose something you never had?

 

[Heidi]

I don't think anyone is argueing the point that Judas is lost now. The point of discussion isn't whether or not Judas is now lost, but rather was his name ever in the Book of Life in the first place.

As I already mentioned, since Jesus said; "No one can snatch them out of my hands" then, no Jesus's name couldn't have been written in the Book of Life. As Jesus said, he was already doomed.

 

[Guest]

As I already mentioned, since Jesus said; "No one can snatch them out of my hands" then, no Jesus's name couldn't have been written in the Book of Life. As Jesus said, he was already doomed.

You might want to proofread and then edit :-D

 

[Heidi]

You might want to proofread and then edit :-D

Thanks. I very much want to edit. :

 

[thessalonian]

Heidi is correct here...From a theological point of view, none of the 12 were saved while traveling with Jesus...Peter even denied Jesus three times remember? Salvation was not available until after the Cross......In fact no one was saved until they received the Holy Spirit...I believe John 20 speaks of this...Now had Judas repented and I believe he could have (remember he felt remorse) then he would have been saved.....He would have been saved the same way OT saints are saved....Since we know that Judas was not saved, then we also know that he was never saved....

Ah, so your misuse all those passages about having eternal life and John 3:16 and John 10:28? Either that or Jesus was lying to them. They could not have eternal life if they believed in him. Or are you saying that the many places where the Gospels speak of the disciples believing in him were wrong and they didn't really believe in him and didn't have the eternal life that he had preached to them in several places? I have been waiting a long time for a OSAS type to go down this road. It is one filled with glaring contradictions to their theology. Here I have two saying that Jesus said "if you believe in me you have eternal life", the Gospels speaking of many who believed in him, and you saying, well they really didn't have eternal life then even though they believed in him and that is what Jesus words mean for us today. :o .

 

[jgredline]

Ah, so your misuse all those passages about having eternal life and John 3:16 and John 10:28? Either that or Jesus was lying to them. They could not have eternal life if they believed in him. Or are you saying that the many places where the Gospels speak of the disciples believing in him were wrong and they didn't really believe in him and didn't have the eternal life that he had preached to them in several places? I have been waiting a long time for a OSAS type to go down this road. It is one filled with glaring contradictions to their theology. Here I have two saying that Jesus said "if you believe in me you have eternal life", the Gospels speaking of many who believed in him, and you saying, well they really didn't have eternal life then even though they believed in him and that is what Jesus words mean for us today. :o .

Thess
The bible says that even the Demons believe....So are you saying that they are also saved :o

It is easy to take single verses and take them out out of context....Something you are good at doing...

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? 23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

Because so many people teach the wrong way, there is a tendency to ask how so many people could be wrong. Such doubts are especially strong when false teachers prophesy, cast out demons, and perform wonders in Jesus' name. However, it is important to remember that the Word of God is superior to any miracle....

11 Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them. 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, "We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches." 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?"

16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. 18 And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds. 19 Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted up the value of them, and it totaled fifty thousand pieces of silver. 20 So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed.

So here we have a group of people who believed, yet were afraid? Why...Because while they believed they knew they were not saved as is evidence by the books they had that were filled with formulas, spells, and astrological forecasts...

9 But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great, 10 to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the great power of God." 11 And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time. 12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.


14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."

24 Then Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me."

25 So when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.


So again here we have a fellow who not only believed, but was also baptized and not only that, he thought he could Purchase eternal Life (Holy Spirit) Hmmm, perhaps Pope leo took this out of context and this is where he got the idea of selling indulgences...I don't know but the bible says it is wrong....

No wonder that by your theology, you ''need to believe'' in purgatory.....
Again, it take more than believing....

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble!

 

[golfjack]

reply

Jesus did not shed His Blood yet for the remission of sins. There is no salvation without the shedding of blood. The Apostles were Jews, and they believed that Jesus was their Messiah who would rule here on earth. And set them free from Roman Rule.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[jgredline]

Folks
The biggest misconception of those who criticize OSAS is exactly what Thess alluded too...I call it ''cheap grace'' Folks Grace was not cheap and those who do believe in cheap Grace like Hyper Calvinist, who believe That God predestined some to eternal torment while others to eternal life should check in the mirror...Because that is not a God of Love...If one Looks at Michaels post here http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=28941 one will see through the scriptures and a proper understanding that once you belong to God, there is none that can pluck you from the saviors hand....

Folks...A person who is Saved will strive to live a Holy Life....not a life of sin...
Those who are in the OSAS camp who are born again take the whole counsel of God seriously...
Scriptures like 1 john 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him...

That is a tough set of scriptures to live by and who here can say they live a life with out sin? It is the misunderstandings of scripture that leads to religions of ''WORKS''...A person who is born again will understand this scripture to mean habitual sin, living in sin and will understand that only the flesh sins, and not the spirit / soul...If one is living in sin or habitually sinning and his person believes in OSAS but there is no repentance and no fruit, then this person better check himself, ''lest he end up like Judas...A man who believed, but was not born again....''

 

[thessalonian]

Thess

The bible says that even the Demons believe....So are you saying that they are also saved

It is easy to take single verses and take them out out of context....Something you are good at doing...

THis is hillarious. I don't beleive in OSAS. Your misunderstand my point and then use an arguement that I would use agains OSAS to counter it. I illuded to many verses if you actually read my post and tried to grasp what I was saying.

In your next post you accuse me of trying to misrepresent OSAS types as believing that they can sin at will.

The biggest misconception of those who criticize OSAS is exactly what Thess alluded too...I call it ''cheap grace''

I did not in fact illude to it at all. Maybe you need to reread my post and engage your mind. :-D

 

[thessalonian]

My point is a simple one. I think Jgred can even understand it though he has shown no evidence that he will engage his mind in the discussion as of yet.

1) Those who believe in OSAS say passages that speak about eternal life are speaking about OSAS. i.e. john 6, John 3:16, John 10:28 I believe it is.

2) Yet above both jgred and heidi agree that OSAS was not available for the people Jesus was preaching to.

3) Therefore Jesus could not have been preaching OSAS in the above and other passages in the Gospels that OSAS types use or he would be lying to them.

 

[jgredline]

Ah, so your misuse all those passages about having eternal life and John 3:16 and John 10:28? Either that or Jesus was lying to them. They could not have eternal life if they believed in him. Or are you saying that the many places where the Gospels speak of the disciples believing in him were wrong and they didn't really believe in him and didn't have the eternal life that he had preached to them in several places? I have been waiting a long time for a OSAS type to go down this road. It is one filled with glaring contradictions to their theology. Here I have two saying that Jesus said "if you believe in me you have eternal life", the Gospels speaking of many who believed in him, and you saying, well they really didn't have eternal life then even though they believed in him and that is what Jesus words mean for us today. :o .

Sorry thess and I did read your post carefully in fact...The problem is that you accuse people of not reading your post when they don't agree with you....You were emphatic in pointing your post to ''believe''...I showed you through scripture that it takes more than belief...But since you do what comes natural to you and take verses out of context, then I am not suprised you don't see the error of your ways...Like Paul says, the NATURAL MAN does not understand the things of God....

Listen, I am not a 5 point Calvinist....So don't lump me into that Group...I call myself a Calminianist and part of the reformed view that I whole heartily agree with is eternal security...You and I could not be further apart in what we believe....The Catholic Church in order to try and justify the hundreds of years of false teaching has to resort to the plucking and twisting of scripture, Like what you are doing in the debate with Jack..Give me a break, you even introduced the Aramaic Language...to try and prove that Peter is the Church...
I was laughing my head off when I read that.... :

So no, I did not misread your post....

 

[Heidi]

So Jesus preached salvation in John 3:16 but it wasn't available to them. They were out of luck. Nobody could have eternal life and so you have Jesus as a liar.

Jesus preached that salvation was open to anyone who wanted it. And since Judas walked with Christ but didn't know whether or not he was called, salvation as open to him as well.

I just preach what the bible says. And Jesus said that Judas wwas lost because he was doomed. So I trust that you believe Jesus. Or is it you who thinks that Jesus is a liar? Are you going to disagree with Jesus and judge Jesus because he said that Judas was doomed? :o

 

[thessalonian]

Jesus preached that salvation was open to anyone who wanted it. And since Judas walked with Christ but didn't know whether or not he was called, salvation as open to him as well.

I just preach what the bible says. And Jesus said that Judas wwas lost because he was doomed. So I trust that you believe Jesus. Or is it you who thinks that Jesus is a liar? Are you going to disagree with Jesus and judge Jesus because he said that Judas was doomed? :o

Was that a 747 flying over or did Heidi miss the point as well. I didn't say Judas didn't go to hell. Do try and engage your mind just once on this forum and attempt to understand the point I am making, which is not about Judas but about OSAS. go reread my posts.

 

[thessalonian]

Sorry thess and I did read your post carefully in fact...The problem is that you accuse people of not reading your post when they don't agree with you....

Nope, not the problem at all. The problem is that your picking at peripherals and not dealing with the core issue of my question. I know what my question is, or at least I would think that I would. It's not the question you want to answer apparently so you avoid the issue by going after another one.

[quote:31ce5]You were emphatic in pointing your post to ''believe''...I showed you through scripture that it takes more than belief...

Up above you said I didn't agree with you and that was the problem. I agree that it takes more than belief so it seems your very confused about my post.. You seem to just be making assumptions and looking for points to attack, rather than actually trying to understand the question.

[quote:31ce5]But since you do what comes natural to you and take verses out of context, then I am not suprised you don't see the error of your ways...Like Paul says, the NATURAL MAN does not understand the things of God....

I didn't take anything out of context. I am simply making a point about some passages that some use to proof text for OSAS. Yet Heidi, being one of those, says that OSAS was not available when the words were spoken. I.e. Jesus was preaching something to people that wasn't true for them.

The Catholic Church in order to try and justify the hundreds of years of false teaching has to resort to the plucking and twisting of scripture, Like what you are doing in the debate with Jack..Give me a break, you even introduced the Aramaic Language...to try and prove that Peter is the Church...

Where did I say Peter was the Church. Quote me please. Who is twisting?

So no, I did not misread your post....

[/quote:31ce5][/quote:31ce5]

You simply choose to ignore the core issue then. Sad.

 

[jgredline]

Jesus preached that salvation was open to anyone who wanted it.

Here you go again contradicting yourself ''again'' :o

First you say that man has no free will to choose,
then you say ''that salvation was open to anyone who wanted it''
So how could they want it if they don't have a choice....

 

[handy]

Just for the record, I don't believe that Judas was ever saved. I think I posted somewhere that I believe him to be the prime example of the tare among the wheat. I thought I had posted that in this thread, but perhaps it was another. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. My main point in starting this thread was not so much to seek an answer to a question that I was in doubt in, but rather starting a discussion on Judas, as his testimony provokes questions such as OSAS and predestination.

Judas was one of the 12, called an apostle by Christ. He cast out demons, he healed the sick, he walked with Christ. I even believe that he 'believed' in Christ, that Christ was the Son of God and the Messiah who would bring the Kingdom of God to the world. But, as jg points out, even the demons believe that. I do not see that Judas ever was regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Now, to me, whether any of the disciples were regenerated prior to John 20:22 is rather a moot point. Those with faith were every bit as 'saved' prior to Jesus' death on the cross as those with faith are 'saved' now.

We need to remember what 'saved' is. It's a verb, an action. Whose action? Not ours surely but God's. What action? To deliever one from the consequenses of one's sin. What consequense? The eternal death and separation from God, namely hell.

Those with faith in God prior to Christ's death on the cross did not suffer eternal damnation upon death. Therefore they were 'saved' to eternal life. Whether they spent time in what can be refered to as some sort of spiritual green room called 'Abraham's Bosom', or in Paradise itself, is also a moot point. They in no way suffered the consequense of sin that is eternal torment.

I really don't like the term Once Saved Always Saved, because I think it ignores some very real warnings from God about taking our salvation for granted.

But, if one wants to believe that Judas Iscariot truly was regenerated, then he is either forgiven and in Paradise, or we do lose our salvation.

If Judas was never saved, then we need to come to grips with the fact not all who follow God are truly His. Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will be saved.

To me, the lesson to be learned from Judas is not so much will the regenerated ever lose salvation, but a cautionary example of how we proceed upon our own walk. One can walk with the Lord, be given gifts and abilities by the Lord, exercise these gifts and abilities in His name, and yet still fail to achieve the prize.

Paul himself stated that he didn't regard himself as already holding this prize of being resurrected like our Lord into eternal life. But it was something that he pressed on towards. Judas didn't press on towards that goal, if he ever aspired to that goal in the first place. It's a good arguement that some make, that Judas was predestined to do exactly what he did, that he was a vessel of wrath, prepared for destruction. Romans 9:22

 

[thessalonian]

Mostly I agree with what you have said handy.

But, if one wants to believe that Judas Iscariot truly was regenerated, then he is either forgiven and in Paradise, or we do lose our salvation.

I prefer the statement "we can fall from grace" because God knows who will persevere and who won't and it is by his grace that we persevere. Those who are going to persevere cannot lose their salvation, but God knows who they are and we know we are one of them if we continue to persevere. The one who falls from grace was never predestined to persevere.

If Judas was never saved, then we need to come to grips with the fact not all who follow God are truly His. Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will be saved.

We know there are tares among the wheat. We are also given a statement by paul in Galations that says "you have FALLEN from grace, you have been SEVERED from Christ".

If one was not in a tree how can it be said that they fell from that tree? If a limb is severed, how can it have never been attached? We are also told that the Apostles fell away. Jesus prophesied that all of them would and we have the example of Peter falling away. He was restored as Jesus had prayed that he would be and then he restored the rest.

 

[sisterchristian]

Because in Matthew 27:3-5, when Judas hanged himself, Jesus had not yet died to pay for our sins. So again, no one could have been saved before Jesus died for our sins. Jesus also verifies Judas's fate in John 17:12, "None of them has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that scripture would be fulfilled." And Jesus knows who's lost and who isn't.

What about the OT saints, like Noah, Abraham, Isaac, etc. If they weren't saved than where did they go?

 

[Vic C.]

Sister, God's plan of salvation by Grace was in effect throughout the OT. Hebrews goes into this. Jesus' death and resurrection was sufficient for them too. They will come to know Him as Messiah. There are hints in the OT that they did come to know Him already, in a sense. But I think you knew that already. ;-)