Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Was Judas saved and now sitting with the Lord in heaven?

A direct answer to my direct question would have been better response as to what you believe , but let’s go with “Jesus was speaking to His twelve disciples” even though the Text doesn’t say His twelve disciples (you insert the twelve into the Text).

That’s 13 people there and 12 thrones, right?

Twelve disciples and twelve thrones.

Jesus on His throne of glory.

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


JLB
 
Judas is described as the "son of perdition" at John 17:12.
The word translated "perdition" is: ἀπώλεια (apōleia)
Strong's defines the meaning as : "the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition"

So, no. Judas was not saved and is not currently in heaven with God.
 
Judas is described as the "son of perdition" at John 17:12.
The word translated "perdition" is: ἀπώλεια (apōleia)
Strong's defines the meaning as : "the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition"

So, no. Judas was not saved and is not currently in heaven with God.

He knows.

He is making a point that today’s gospel of easy believism would have Judas being saved, since he believed for a while and followed for a while.

Basically they claim Judas is saved because he believed and at that moment he had eternal life that is irrevocable.



JLB
 
I said this:
"Where did Jesus say this? This was written by Paul, to Roman believers."
I see, so now you are teaching us that Romans 2:7 was not inspired by Jesus.
How would any one come to such a conclusion? Of course the ENTIRE Bible is the written Word, just as Jesus is the Living Word. There is complete agreement between EVERY verse in the Bible and what Jesus believes taught.

I hope that's clear enough for everyone to understand.

Who was Romans 2:7 inspired by if not Jesus?
Not the question, as I've shown above.

The real question regarding Rom 2:6-8 is what Paul was communicating to all believers. And it sure WASN'T about how to receive eternal life.

His point was that one WOULD HAVE TO continue to do good in order to receive eternal life.

Know what that clearly IMPLIES? Any human being who did that didn't need the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. So, how many human beings have done that? Anyone you know?

NO!! And Paul made that very clear by Rom 3:9,10, 20, 23. NO ONE will receive eternal life by continuance in doing good. Its impossible.

The reason is that all human beings are SINNERS and UNABLE TO CONTINUALLY DO GOOD. Which Paul specifically taught.

When Rom 2:6-8 is quoted as if those verses teach how to receive eternal life, I'm reminded of what Peter said about Paul's writings in 2 Pet 3:
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Those who teach or just believe that eternal life is received by continuance in doing good teach or believe that to their own destruction.

Just as Peter said regarding how some distort his teaching.

There is only one way to receive the free gift of eternal life by Jesus; and that is by believing in Him for it.
Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 -They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These are 22 verses that specifically say we are saved/have eternal life through faith in Christ.

And NOTHING about continuance in doing good.

If continuance in doing good results in eternal life, then Jesus died for nothing.

Or, if ANY human being was capable of continuing to do good, then that person didn't need Jesus to die for him.

Is that what has been argued from your posts?
 
He is making a point that today’s gospel of easy believism would have Judas being saved, since he believed for a while and followed for a while.
Please follow the ToS and provide any Scripture that actually supports the claim here.

Which verse says he "believed for a while"?

Basically they claim Judas is saved because he believed and at that moment he had eternal life that is irrevocable.
JLB
Who are the "they" here that are making this claim? I don't recall anyone from this thread who have made this claim.
 
[
You know, not everyone that posts is trying to argue OSAS vs OSNAS. Sometimes we are just trying to understand the truth no matter which it ends up being.
Well said . Amen. The purpose of an impersonal debate filled with Biblical knowledge and rich in contextual verse quotes is a great method of understanding deep truths of the Bible . It's 2000 years since Bible was written , and even today deeper interpretations are coming forth.
Provetbs 27: 17 "As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another."
My greatest objection and fear of rampantly preached easy believism doctrine is that it's producing millions of unproductive Christians who are not interested in obedience as much as knowing they are "saved " through their belief and their pastor's assurance of guaranteed salvation. Thus in my opinion it's very important to dig deep deep into Bible to learn and understand the heart of Christ. Would he have liked the thousands of fruitless Christians who are product ( victims?)of easy believism doctrine
 
28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

  • you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones

Judas was destined to sit on a throne with the other 11, but chose of his own freewill to become a traitor.

Judas is the biblical example of those who believe for a while, then fall way.


JLB
Yes, you describe that so we'll. Many who believed but yet chose to betray Christ by choosing to live in sin rather than obedience do risk losing their salvation, in my humble opinion, after. I repeatedly read a multitude of verses , often Christ's own words .
Also the thief on the cross salvation has been twisted out of context . There were many things that happened for that thief to have got saved. The thief like Christ was in excruciating pain and yet he elected to believe that Christ was innnocentd of the charges levelled against Him . I believe it took a hercuken effort on the part of the thief to come out strongly in favor if Christ when none was on his side on that eventful day . Jesus as a human must have been pleasantly surprised of this unexpected support coming from the thief crucified on the cross. Jesus definitely found this man believed in the Lord . Jesus also saw the thief coming out strongly in Christ's favor when all chips were done . Thus the thief not only believed the Christ but in excruciating pain he chose to make known to the Jews and Roman rulers that Christ was innocent and was being wrongly persecuted....murdered . Thief thus not only changed his heart but was willing to accept Christ as LORD. And Jesus Romans 9:15 obliged ------I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." . Teachers of the word must understand under what SITUATION the thief believed and enacted the belief . Again Christ had the authority to forgive all sins. Not only that the scripture is clear that God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and compassion on whom he will . Romans 9: 15 "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I shall have compassion"
 
He knows.

He is making a point that today’s gospel of easy believism would have Judas being saved, since he believed for a while and followed for a while.

Basically they claim Judas is saved because he believed and at that moment he had eternal life that is irrevocable.



JLB
Exactly. That was my point . I know Judas couldn't have been saved , no matter what. Yet through the unfortunate doctrine of easy believism he could be saved. Just by believing in Christ as Savior. The point I'm trying to make is how dangerous and un Christ like is this doctrine ....that's all
 
Please follow the ToS and provide any Scripture that actually supports the claim here.

Which verse says he "believed for a while"?


68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68-69


If you believe Judas continued to believe Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, through to the end of his life, then please post the scripture for your belief.



JLB
 
The thief like Christ was in excruciating pain and yet he elected to believe that Christ was innnocentd of the charges levelled against Him . I believe it took a hercuken effort on the part of the thief to come out strongly in favor if Christ when none was on his side on that eventful day .
Yet, do you have any Biblical evidence to support your belief that “it took a hercuken [sic, Herculean] effort on the part of the thief”?

Maybe he was simply blessed by God for being a merciful one?
Blessed are the merciful ones, because they will be shown-mercy.
Matthew 5:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 5:7&version=DLNT

Maybe he was one of His lost sheep and was found and rode His shoulders right to Paridise that eve.

But blessed are your eyes because they are seeing, and your ears, because they are hearing. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous ones desired to experience the things which you are seeing, and they did not experience them, and to hear the things which you are hearing, and they did not hear them.
Matthew 13:16-17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 13:16-17&version=DLNT

Unlike the powerful Greek god Hercules (or the Devil possessed Judas whom Jesus sent away to do quickly what he was doing) maybe he had no Herculean ability to come to Jesus unless the all powerful God of the Bible drew Him???


No one is able to come to Me unless the Father having sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It has been written in the prophets [in Isa 54:13]: ‘and they shall all be taught ones of God’. Everyone having heard from the Father and having learned, comes to Me—
John 6:44-45 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:44-45&version=DLNT
 
Exactly. That was my point . I know Judas couldn't have been saved , no matter what. Yet through the unfortunate doctrine of easy believism he could be saved. Just by believing in Christ as Savior.
So, "just by" huh? So that's easy believism, huh? Well, then that's EXACTLY what the Bible teaches about how to be saved.

So, what is your alternative view of how to be saved?
 
I asked this:
"Please follow the ToS and provide any Scripture that actually supports the claim here.

Which verse says he "believed for a while"?"
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:68-69
If Peter had answered "we all" or "all of us" then you'd have a point. As it is, it requires quite a bit of speculation and assumption to come to the conclusion presented.

One more thing. If Peter was accurately speaking for ALL 12 of the disciples, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 could NOT be true. Is that your position?

For there is NO WAY to understand that verse other than once given eternal life, which is by faith, the recipient shall never perish.

It's clear that Judas perished in the eternal sense. He didn't go to heaven, for sure.

So, if your claim is correct, then Jesus wasn't. It's that simple.

If you believe Judas continued to believe Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, through to the end of his life, then please post the scripture for your belief.
JLB
As of yet, the claim that he ever did believe hasn't been proven. The verse presented REQUIRES supposition, assumption, and speculation to reach the conclusion presented.

I'll have none of it.

Jesus SAID that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. No if's, and's or but's. No conditions for recipients of eternal life as to how to keep the free gift. None whatsoever.
 
If Peter had answered "we all" or "all of us" then you'd have a point. As it is, it requires quite a bit of speculation and assumption to come to the conclusion presented.

The assumption is to think that “we” didn’t include those who continued to follow Him, even though all the other disciples had turned away from following Him, which is what the context and the scriptures so plainly shows.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:60-68


  • Then Jesus said to the twelve,


Once again we see that scripture and it’s context, teach us the truth.




JLB
 
So, "just by" huh? So that's easy believism, huh? Well, then that's EXACTLY what the Bible teaches about how to be saved.

So, what is your alternative view of how to be saved?

What does the Bible teach us about how to be saved?
 
Back
Top