Was Judas saved and now sitting with the Lord in heaven?

[FreeGrace]

Believing the Gospel is how Jesus said we are saved.

OK. What is the "Gospel" that is to be believed?

 

[FreeGrace]

I gave you the verse of scripture from John 6:67-69 that teaches the twelve believed Jesus was the Christ, the son of the living God

This is totally untrue.
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

As I pointed out previously, it is an assumption that Peter knew what was in Judas' heart. Peter certainly wasn't omniscient, so what he said here cannot be taken as true. It was only true in his own mind, which was full of pebbles (petra) as he demonstrated on numerous occasions.

Wasn't he the one Jesus addressed as "Satan"? So why would anyone use Peter's "perspective" as truth?

Let's look at more of John 6. Just for context.

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

See what John did? He combined the unbelieving with the one who would betray Jesus.

Then he finished chapter 6 with these words:
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

It is quite obvious that John was including the one who would betray Jesus with other disciples who didn't believe in Jesus as Messiah.

which taught s also about the twelve proving they all believed Jesus was the Christ by their action of continuing to follow Him as the Christ, while the other disciples turned away from following Him.

We know that Judas was a criminal opportunist. Which is why he continued to follow Him.

That’s the context.

Here it is again.

67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
John 6:67-69

I just gave the real context; v.64 with v.70-71.

This is the second time I have given you this scripture in this thread, yet you say I have not provided any verse to validate date what I claim.

I said that because v.67-69 DOESN'T validate your claim. As I have shown the SECOND TIME.



JLB[/QUOTE]

 

[chessman]

it is an assumption that Peter knew what was in Judas' heart.

It’s worse than an assumption. It’s in disregard to the very answer given to His question by the One and only God that does in fact know men’s hearts in the next verses:

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is the devil [slanderous, an adjective not a noun here]?” Now He was speaking- of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot. For this one, one of the twelve, was going to hand Him over.​

John 6:70-71 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:70-71&version=DLNT

And He said to them, “ You are the ones declaring yourselves righteous in the sight of people, but God knows your hearts— because the highly- valued thing among people is an abomination in the sight of God.​

Luke 16:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 16:15&version=DLNT

 

[FreeGrace]

It’s worse than an assumption. It’s in disregard to the very answer given to His question by the One and only God that does in fact know men’s hearts in the next verses:

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is the devil [slanderous, an adjective not a noun here]?” Now He was speaking- of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot. For this one, one of the twelve, was going to hand Him over.​

John 6:70-71 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:70-71&version=DLNT

And He said to them, “ You are the ones declaring yourselves righteous in the sight of people, but God knows your hearts— because the highly- valued thing among people is an abomination in the sight of God.​

Luke 16:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 16:15&version=DLNT

Absolutely! It is clear that v.70-71 are directly related to v.64, where unbelief and betrayal are combined.

 

[chessman]

It is clear that v.70-71 are directly related to v.64, where unbelief and betrayal are combined.

The real issue is some people just don’t believe verse 65! Judas or no one else.

And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you that no one is able to come to Me unless it has been granted to him from the Father”.​

John 6:65 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:65&version=DLNT

 

[JLB]

OK. What is the "Gospel" that is to be believed?

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is totally untrue.
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

As I pointed out previously, it is an assumption that Peter knew what was in Judas' heart. Peter certainly wasn't omniscient, so what he said here cannot be taken as true. It was only true in his own mind, which was full of pebbles (petra) as he demonstrated on numerous occasions.

Wasn't he the one Jesus addressed as "Satan"? So why would anyone use Peter's "perspective" as truth?

Let's look at more of John 6. Just for context.

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

See what John did? He combined the unbelieving with the one who would betray Jesus.

Then he finished chapter 6 with these words:
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

It is quite obvious that John was including the one who would betray Jesus with other disciples who didn't believe in Jesus as Messiah.


We know that Judas was a criminal opportunist. Which is why he continued to follow Him.


I just gave the real context; v.64 with v.70-71.


I said that because v.67-69 DOESN'T validate your claim. As I have shown the SECOND TIME.



JLB

Your assumption is thinking that Judas followed Jesus for 31/2 years as a disciple, then was made an Apostle and sent out to preach the Gospel to the lost, heal the sick, raise the dead and cast out devils, as an unbeliever.

The scripture teaches us that Peter answering for the twelve stated that -

“we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”


You have no scripture, and are making your claim with only an opinion.


JLB

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

So, "just by" huh? So that's easy believism, huh? Well, then that's EXACTLY what the Bible teaches about how to be saved.

So, what is your alternative view of how to be saved?

It takes faith , baptism and OBEDIENCE.
Mathew 28: 18-20

According to my understanding of the Bible faith alone will not save anyone , unless it's backed by willful obedience and earning to do the will of God vs our will. Something Christ constantly did throughout his earthly life . I believe those brothers who are living in the hope of getting visa into heaven by mere faith ( no obedience) may face bitter disappointment
Consider this parable of the Lord. Faith without obedience is extremely dangerous. It's like a doctor with a title. No knowledge of medicine.
Matthew 25 : 31- 46
The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdomprepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

It takes faith , baptism and OBEDIENCE.
Mathew 28: 18-20

According to my understanding of the Bible faith alone will not save anyone , unless it's backed by willful obedience and earning to do the will of God vs our will. Something Christ constantly did throughout his earthly life . I believe those brothers who are living in the hope of getting visa into heaven by mere faith ( no obedience) may face bitter disappointment
Consider this parable of the Lord. Faith without obedience is extremely dangerous. It's like a doctor with a title. No knowledge of medicine.
Matthew 25 : 31- 46
The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdomprepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

My question to chessman who likes to indulge in attacking for a typo and to FG here is WHY DIDN'T CHRIST MENTION FAITH ANYWHERE HERE ? He only mentioned righteous acts of an OBEDIENT believer

 

[chessman]

My question to chessman who likes to indulge in attacking for a typo

For the second time, I’m not attacking you. Personally or for a typo. It’s not about your typos (I make them all the time especially with this new software update with only nine lines of text editor to use).

And disagreeing is NOT an attack. [For example, I disagree with you that I like to indulge in attacking people for typos. And frankly, I’m in a much better position to state what I like than you are. You don’t know what I like unless I tell you. Don’t you think it’s a bit personal to post what another member likes to ‘indulge in’ or not without anyway to know that information?]

It’s your unsupported post(s) I disagreed with in this debate section and do so strongly with the Biblical evidence. In no way shape or form can you exegete that the repentance demonstrated by the one thief required a Herculean effort (and Judas was specifically choosen as the slanderer among the 12. Jesus says so. If anything, the repent thief was brought to faith in Christ through a situation orchestrated entirely by God where he was literally unable to do anything Herculean like. All he could do was speak his heart (not that Jesus doesn’t know hearts without words). And he could say anything he liked there, just like the other thief could. No social pressure to say anything other than what they truly believed. Or say nothing at all. Their choice! What were they gonna do to them, crucify them? As with the other thief or a last statement before execution, they chose to say whatever they felt or could have said nothing at all. No Herculean effort required.

WHY DIDN'T CHRIST MENTION FAITH ANYWHERE HERE ?

Because he wasn’t explaining how to become saved to 11 already Blood and Body saved people. He was commissioning the 11 for what to do WITH their salvation, not how to obtain it. As previously posted, they (these 11) received eternal life from the One with the authority to give them His body and His blood (eternal life).

BTW, what differentiated the so called Herculean effort of the two thief’s in your opinion? Was one being more Herculean than the other by speaking their minds?

He only mentioned righteous acts of an OBEDIENT believer

Actually (watch this it’s not a personal attack) that’s incorrect and here’s why:

And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the age.”​

Matthew 28:18-20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 28:18-20&version=LEB

Did He teach two additional things besides obedience here:

1. that “all authority in Heaven and Earth was given to Him” (not to Peter or to any of the other 11).
2. Their eternal security, under His authority.

Two things reformers, reformed back into Jesus’s original teaching here for very good reasons after being ignored for a while.

The great commission is often misquoted. It begins with His authority and ends with His authority. Therefore (see previous statement as to what this statement is there for)... be obedient... and behold all the days!

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked:
"OK. What is the "Gospel" that is to be believed?"

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15
JLB

OK, now please define "repent" so my question can be answered.

The "answer" given just required more questions.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your assumption is thinking that Judas followed Jesus for 31/2 years as a disciple, then was made an Apostle and sent out to preach the Gospel to the lost, heal the sick, raise the dead and cast out devils, as an unbeliever.

There is no assumption. In fact, just the opposite. It's an assumption that Judas ever believed in Jesus as Messiah.

The scripture teaches us that Peter answering for the twelve stated that -

Scripture NEVER taught any such thing.

Scripture does report what Peter said. Scripture NEVER said or even indicated that Peter knew how Judas believed.

“we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

You have no scripture, and are making your claim with only an opinion.JLB

The assumption is that Peter knew Judas' heart, which he didn't.

And Peter was called "Satan" by Jesus. So much for your "expert witness" testimony.

And Paul had to brace Peter to his face for his hypocrisy.

So let's not make so many unfounded assumptions.

 

[FreeGrace]

It takes faith , baptism and OBEDIENCE.
Mathew 28: 18-20

Isn't it obvious that obedience is just another word for "works" or "deeds"? It's about lifestyle behavior.

Yet, Paul was as clear as possible in Eph 2;8-9.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

These 2 verses refute the view that it takes faith, baptism and obedience.

According to my understanding of the Bible faith alone will not save anyone , unless it's backed by willful obedience and earning to do the will of God vs our will.

The word "earning" in this sentence condemns your claim. Salvation cannot be earned. That's WHY we are saved by grace through faith.

Something Christ constantly did throughout his earthly life .

Was He trying to earn salvation? Sure seems that is your point. Which would be ridiculous.

I believe those brothers who are living in the hope of getting visa into heaven by mere faith ( no obedience) may face bitter disappointment

On the contrary, any view that negates grace and replaces it with works will be horribly disappointed. Just read Matt 7:21-23. All those people yelling "Lord, Lord" were basing their entrance into the kingdom on WHAT THEY DID (works, obedience). And Jesus never knew them.

Consider this parable of the Lord. Faith without obedience is extremely dangerous. It's like a doctor with a title. No knowledge of medicine.

All doctors have that title. And they all have been trained and therefore, HAVE knowledge. So your little example fails.

Matthew 25 : 31- 46
The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdomprepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

It would be ridiculous to assume that the goats had faith but no works. This parable isn't even about that. It's about believers (sheep) vs goats (unbelievers).

Consider this. If salvation is earned by behavior (obedience), then what was the point of Jesus Christ dying on the cross for the sins of mankind? Your view doesn't take His sacrifice into account at all.

Read Hebrews 7-10 and count the number of times the words "once for all" was used and regarding WHAT it referred to.

If that doesn't change one's mind (repent), then nothing will.

But what has been presented in your post isn't orthodox Christianity at all.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

I see

For the second time, I’m not attacking you. Personally or for a typo. It’s not about your typos (I make them all the time especially with this new software update with only nine lines of text editor to use).

And disagreeing is NOT an attack. [For example, I disagree with you that I like to indulge in attacking people for typos. And frankly, I’m in a much better position to state what I like than you are. You don’t know what I like unless I tell you. Don’t you think it’s a bit personal to post what another member likes to ‘indulge in’ or not without anyway to know that information?]

It’s your unsupported post(s) I disagreed with in this debate section and do so strongly with the Biblical evidence. In no way shape or form can you exegete that the repentance demonstrated by the one thief required a Herculean effort (and Judas was specifically choosen as the slanderer among the 12. Jesus says so. If anything, the repent thief was brought to faith in Christ through a situation orchestrated entirely by God where he was literally unable to do anything Herculean like. All he could do was speak his heart (not that Jesus doesn’t know hearts without words). And he could say anything he liked there, just like the other thief could. No social pressure to say anything other than what they truly believed. Or say nothing at all. Their choice! What were they gonna do to them, crucify them? As with the other thief or a last statement before execution, they chose to say whatever they felt or could have said nothing at all. No Herculean effort required.


Because he wasn’t explaining how to become saved to 11 already Blood and Body saved people. He was commissioning the 11 for what to do WITH their salvation, not how to obtain it. As previously posted, they (these 11) received eternal life from the One with the authority to give them His body and His blood (eternal life).

BTW, what differentiated the so called Herculean effort of the two thief’s in your opinion? Was one being more Herculean than the other by speaking their minds?


Actually (watch this it’s not a personal attack) that’s incorrect and here’s why:

And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the age.”​

Matthew 28:18-20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 28:18-20&version=LEB

Did He teach two additional things besides obedience here:

1. that “all authority in Heaven and Earth was given to Him” (not to Peter or to any of the other 11).
2. Their eternal security, under His authority.

Two things reformers, reformed back into Jesus’s original teaching here for very good reasons after being ignored for a while.

The great commission is often misquoted. It begins with His authority and ends with His authority. Therefore (see previous statement as to what this statement is there for)... be obedient... and behold all the days!

I see many believers have a very strong desire to use verses to somehow/ anyhow Dodge the vital importance of obedience in salvation . Based on what JESUS

For the second time, I’m not attacking you. Personally or for a typo. It’s not about your typos (I make them all the time especially with this new software update with only nine lines of text editor to use).

And disagreeing is NOT an attack. [For example, I disagree with you that I like to indulge in attacking people for typos. And frankly, I’m in a much better position to state what I like than you are. You don’t know what I like unless I tell you. Don’t you think it’s a bit personal to post what another member likes to ‘indulge in’ or not without anyway to know that information?]

It’s your unsupported post(s) I disagreed with in this debate section and do so strongly with the Biblical evidence. In no way shape or form can you exegete that the repentance demonstrated by the one thief required a Herculean effort (and Judas was specifically choosen as the slanderer among the 12. Jesus says so. If anything, the repent thief was brought to faith in Christ through a situation orchestrated entirely by God where he was literally unable to do anything Herculean like. All he could do was speak his heart (not that Jesus doesn’t know hearts without words). And he could say anything he liked there, just like the other thief could. No social pressure to say anything other than what they truly believed. Or say nothing at all. Their choice! What were they gonna do to them, crucify them? As with the other thief or a last statement before execution, they chose to say whatever they felt or could have said nothing at all. No Herculean effort required.


Because he wasn’t explaining how to become saved to 11 already Blood and Body saved people. He was commissioning the 11 for what to do WITH their salvation, not how to obtain it. As previously posted, they (these 11) received eternal life from the One with the authority to give them His body and His blood (eternal life).

BTW, what differentiated the so called Herculean effort of the two thief’s in your opinion? Was one being more Herculean than the other by speaking their minds?


Actually (watch this it’s not a personal attack) that’s incorrect and here’s why:

And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the age.”​

Matthew 28:18-20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 28:18-20&version=LEB

Did He teach two additional things besides obedience here:

1. that “all authority in Heaven and Earth was given to Him” (not to Peter or to any of the other 11).
2. Their eternal security, under His authority.

Two things reformers, reformed back into Jesus’s original teaching here for very good reasons after being ignored for a while.

The great commission is often misquoted. It begins with His authority and ends with His authority. Therefore (see previous statement as to what this statement is there for)... be obedient... and behold all the days!

Dear chessman if according to you obedience plays no part in chrsitian salvation can you please explain WHY Christ didn't ask the rich man to just BELIEVE in Him as Messiah and he would be "instantly saved" as many churches teach nowadays. Why?

 

[FreeGrace]

My question to chessman who likes to indulge in attacking for a typo and to FG here is WHY DIDN'T CHRIST MENTION FAITH ANYWHERE HERE ? He only mentioned righteous acts of an OBEDIENT believer

Here's the verses from Matt 28 -
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

To make a disciple isn't about changing one's behavior. Such an assumption is a grave error. It's about leading one to the Lord in faith. Then, and only then, they are to be taught to obey everything Jesus commanded.

Where in these verses does Jesus say that one is saved by obeying? He didn't

This is what the Bible says about how to be saved and have eternal life:
Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, please review each of these 22 verses and count the times obeidence is mentioned.

I rest my case.

 

[JLB]

There is no assumption. In fact, just the opposite. It's an assumption that Judas ever believed in Jesus as Messiah.

The assumption is to believe that Judas heard the call of Jesus, followed Him as a disciple and continued to follow Him when other discles turned away.

The scriptures also teach us this is the way we determine who believes or not by following Him.

Here is the scripture -



64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:

Here's the verses from Matt 28 -
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

To make a disciple isn't about changing one's behavior. Such an assumption is a grave error. It's about leading one to the Lord in faith. Then, and only then, they are to be taught to obey everything Jesus commanded.

Where in these verses does Jesus say that one is saved by obeying? He didn't

This is what the Bible says about how to be saved and have eternal life:
Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, please review each of these 22 verses and count the times obeidence is mentioned.

I rest my case.

Every time believe is mentioned

 

[JLB]

There is no assumption. In fact, just the opposite. It's an assumption that Judas ever believed in Jesus as Messiah.

Again, you are using your opinion when the scripture teaches us the truth.


The assumption is to believe that Judas heard the call of Jesus, followed Him as a disciple and continued to follow Him when other discles turned away.


This scripture shows us about what believing means. There some disciples who believed in Him and followed Him for a while, but then no longer followed Him, when they did not agree with what He said.

• For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, (the other disciples)and who would betray Him. (Judas)

Again, Judas continued to believe and follow Jesus, when the other disciples turned away from Him.


But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:64-69



JLB

 

[chessman]

if according to you obedience plays no part in chrsitian salvation

First, Where did I (or anyone else for that matter) say “obedience plays no part in Christian salvation”? I haven’t, nor do I believe such nonsense. If you want to know what I believe about obedience, ask. Here’s a quick discussion however (just because I love you):

“Obedience” is so closely related to “believing” that it’s almost a synonym (Biblically speaking) quite literally for the word “belief”. Literally the same word in Greek (look it up, JLB taught me that once years ago and he’s right about that). Works or deeds or “effort” (Herculean or childlike) are different words, for a reason. But you better be sure it’s the true faith you’re believing in (being obedient to) and not some false Gospel our you’re mistaken in thinking brief/obedience carry the same meaning.

Actually, I need to correct myself;

First, how about answering my direct and relevant question from the very post you just quoted yet failed to answer my question so as to defend your weak case about Herculean effort being demonstrated by the one thief’s entrance into paradise that eve:

what differentiated the so called Herculean effort of the two thief’s in your opinion? Was one being more Herculean than the other by speaking their minds?

Or if you want to support your OP weak case, based on speculating that Judas’s “regret” (which BTW is a much different word than repentance or belief for good reasons) indicates ‘belief in Christ’, then explain how returning money just prior to hanging oneself is being “obedient” to the Gospel. Wouldn’t hanging oneself indicate disobedience to God’s word to not murder?

But even if you choose to avoid answering either of these two simple questions, how about not posting statements about what I like or believe in the future.

 

[chessman]

Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.

Then Judas did NOT believe this good-news.
His direct testimony was that Jesus was innocent of being the King of the Jews, the Christ, the Holy One (the Kingdom of God at hand, the God-man on Earth) for which He was crucified as detailed and Biblically supported in post #13:

What charges was Jesus crucified for??? Claiming to be Christ, the King of the Jews! That’s why the Romans placed this charge on the cross for all to see.

and saying “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself ”. And there was also an inscription over Him— “This is the King of the Jews”. And one of the criminals having been hung was blaspheming Him, saying “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us”.

To which no one who is assuming Judas was ever saved has any rebuttal. It’s there Biblically stated plain and simple. From the beginning of Jesus’s choosing the 12 to the very end of Judas’s life, Judas was the devil (the one of the 12 slandering and betraying the very charge that Jesus is the Christ).

Jesus replied to them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is the devil?” (Now he was speaking about Judas son of Simon Iscariot, because this one—one of the twelve—was going to betray him.)​

John 6:70-71 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:70-71&version=LEB

Simple, but paridham shifting for sure.

 

[JLB]

Then Judas did NOT believe this good-news.
His direct testimony was that Jesus was innocent of being the King of the Jews, the Christ, the Holy One (the Kingdom of God at hand, the God-man on Earth) for which He was crucified as detailed and Biblically supported in post #13:

Judas believe, and demostrated he believed by following Jesus for 31/2 years as a disciple, then was promoted to an Apostle and sent out to preach the Gospel with the signs of a believer following.


And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was[a] Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
Matthew 10:1-4



JLB