Was Mary the MOST blesseded of all except Christ?

[BradtheImpaler]

(Somehow, I am sure the point of this joke will be lost on Catholics/Orthodox?)

Not at all.

Ever watch Mad TV? They had the Terinator go back in time to kill Judas. Jesus raised Judas back to life after the Terminator had wasted him twice with a shotgun, and Jesus said something to the effect of "you are really getting on my nerves."

Hmmm...you may have missed the point after all? Not that it may be funny to depict Jesus as "irked" like in these similar punchlines, but that if Mary was truly without sin, she could have (had she been there) chucked the rock. That is, if there was someone (besides Jesus) who was without sin, it would pretty much make his challenge null and void. Like saying -

"If there is any among you (except for my mother) who is without sin..."

Get it? :wink:

 

[Orthodoxy]

(Somehow, I am sure the point of this joke will be lost on Catholics/Orthodox?)

[quote:bfa94]Not at all.

Ever watch Mad TV? They had the Terinator go back in time to kill Judas. Jesus raised Judas back to life after the Terminator had wasted him twice with a shotgun, and Jesus said something to the effect of "you are really getting on my nerves."

Hmmm...you may have missed the point after all? Not that it may be funny to depict Jesus as "irked" like in these similar punchlines, but that if Mary was truly without sin, she could have (had she been there) chucked the rock. That is, if there was someone (besides Jesus) who was without sin, it would pretty much make his challenge null and void. Like saying -

"If there is any among you (except for my mother) who is without sin..."

Get it? :wink:[/quote:bfa94]

At the wedding of Cana wasnt Jesus "irked" with this "woman"?

The fact of the matter is Mary died thus paid the wages of sin as required by the "law". Thus mary was a sinner in need of a savior like she stated.

Now can you please give me a scripture in which Mary is seen commiting an act of sin please.

Also, do you think it is possible for a person not to commit a sin after their conversion?

Also, do you think Mary accepted Jesus Christ as her personal savior thus her sins were forgiven and if so why do you condemn her for forgiven sins?

Do you think Mary was a Roman Catholic?

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodox Christian]

(Somehow, I am sure the point of this joke will be lost on Catholics/Orthodox?)

Not at all.

Ever watch Mad TV? They had the Terinator go back in time to kill Judas. Jesus raised Judas back to life after the Terminator had wasted him twice with a shotgun, and Jesus said something to the effect of "you are really getting on my nerves."

Hmmm...you may have missed the point after all? Not that it may be funny to depict Jesus as "irked" like in these similar punchlines, but that if Mary was truly without sin, she could have (had she been there) chucked the rock. That is, if there was someone (besides Jesus) who was without sin, it would pretty much make his challenge null and void. Like saying -

"If there is any among you (except for my mother) who is without sin..."

Get it? :wink:

Of course I got that. That's why I said "not at all, then finished with a period and began a new thought in a new paragraph.

Jesus had a Jewish mother, and any schtik involving Jesus holding His head and rolling His eyes in His dealings with her are funny at that level.

The doctrinal reference was a snooze....I've heard it before. The Richard Lewis as Jesus visual made me chuckle. Which then led to another topic, free-association/like.

 

[thessalonian]

Simply because she wasn't sinless. Only Christ was! No other human on earth was sinless but Christ!

All sin and fall short of the glory of God.

Including babies?

Are babies immortal or have they been born into the fallen nature given mankind from Adam?

If babies were not born into sin, they would be immortal. If not why would do they die as infants? God said that the wages of sin is death, therefore, a baby must be born into the sin of Adam. Why else would they have the propensity to sin as they grow older?

The verse says "all HAVE SINNED" (rsv, KJV, Web, NAB, DR) if you read it carefully. Not all will sin. So I ask again are babies sinless from a Protestant perspective? Are you ascribing to original sin? Christ died so did he sin too?

 

[cj]

The verse says "all HAVE SINNED" (rsv, KJV, Web, NAB, DR) if you read it carefully.

No it does not, try taking your own advice...... reading carefully means not excluding parts of the verse and not considering the entire thought of God as given by the Holy Spirit.

Lets read it carefully together....

"For all have sinned..... and fall short....... of the glory of God,.... being justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Pretty much, the "and fall short" gives us a slightly different view than what you presented of what is being said.

First off, to understand the truth being spoken in this thought of God one needs to cross-reference it with the following OT verse....

1 Kings  8 : 46, "If they have sinned against You (for there is no man who does not sin) and You are angry with them and deliver them up to the enemy, so that they are carried away captive unto the land of the enemy, far away or nearby;"

Then we need to understand what "and fall short of the glory of God" means....

God's glory is God expressed. Whenever God is expressed, His glory is seen. Man was made by God in His image that man might express Him for His glory. But man has sinned and has contradicted the holiness and righteousness of God. Instead of expressing God, man expresses sin and his sinful self. Hence, man falls short of God's glory. This falling short of God's glory and expression is sin. Sinners are not only under the requirements of God's holiness and righteousness but also under the demand of God's glory. All have offended God's holy being and have broken God's righteous law, and all are short of God's glory. Therefore, all are under God's condemnation.

We need to understand that "sin" is not simply the commiting of something wrong but is actually just having a being that is fallen, something that all men have. And this includes Mary, for Mary was of the first Adam and therefore was fallen in her being.

Contrary to what was said in a post above, Jesus was not of Adam in His being He was of God and (physical) flesh/humanity. The fact is, Jesus could have lived forever as He was sinless, death had nothing in Him. And this He declared Himself when He told folks that He Himself was life.

How could Jesus be life if He was under the curse of death?

The truth is, being born of the Spirit, and having never sinned in His felsh/humanity, the curse of death had nothing in Him.

Yet He died right,.... so what gives?

What gives is that this God-man who could not die,.... gave Himself to death so that those who believe in Him might live.

Jesus..... GAVE...... Himself as a...... LIVING (and not dying) sacrifice.

Jesus would had never died had He not by choice gone to the cross.

Mary on the other hand, like all men, was dying from the day she was born.

And this brings us to the second part of the thought of God that we find in the two above verses, this second part being the matter of justification.

Justification is God's action whereby He approves people according to His standard of righteousness. God can do this on the basis of the redemption of Christ.

Since Christ has paid the price for our sins... and.... in His redemption has fulfilled all God's requirements on us,.... God, because He is just, must justify us freely. Such justification is by the grace of God, not by our works.

But the verse does not end at "justified freely", but goes on to declare how this free justifcation is worked out,

"through the redemption.... which is in Christ Jesus."

To redeem is to purchase back at a cost. We originally belonged to God but became lost through sin. The requirements of God's holiness, righteousness, and glory were so great upon us that it was impossible for us to fulfill them. However, God paid the price for us through Christ, repossessing us at a tremendous cost. Christ died on the cross to redeem us (Gal. 3:13; Titus 2:14; 1 Pet. 2:24; 3:18); His blood obtained eternal redemption for us (1 Pet. 1:18-19).

But the key is found in the phrase "... which is in Christ Jesus."

What is meant here is that man's redemption is found only in Christ Jesus", the meaning of which is given to us in verse 25 and 26, which say,.... "Whom God set forth as a propitiation place through faith in His blood, for the demonstrating of His righteousness, in that in His forbearance God passed over the sins that had previously occurred, with a view to the demonstrating of His righteousness in the present time, so that He might be righteous and the One... who justifies him who is of the faith of Jesus."

Basically, what we can understand from this is that our redemption is in Christ Jesus, and we are brought into this Christ Jesus as we believe in what the shedding of His blood accomplished.

The truth is,..... a man is saved by believing in what the blood of our Lord that was shed on the cross accomplished.

But what is as important, and really, even more important having received forgiveness, is what is declare in the rest of the verse,.... "with a view to the demonstrating of His righteousness in the present time,.

God has redemmed us with the blood of His Son,....... with a view to the demonstrating of His righteousness in the present time,..."


And what is this "view" that God has?

What does this "demonstrating of His righteousness in the present time" look like?

Paul gave us the answer in the beginning of this epistle,

Romans  1 : 17, "For the righteousness of God is revealed in it out of faith to faith, as it is written, "But the righteous shall have life and live by faith.''

God redeemed us so that He might gain a people who have a present living out of faith, so that His righteousness might be demonstrated in this present time.


And this is where the matter of "purgatory" comes in.

Believers should not for a moment disregard this matter of purgatory, for being a part of the counterfeit of God's adversary, it must counterfeit something of the truth of God's economy.

The question is, what of God's economy does the Romanist false doctrine of purgatory counterfeit.

The answer is directly connected to the end part of the above verses, "...with a view to the demonstrating of His righteousness in the present time..."

Our redemption is for something in this present time, and if this "something" is not carried out by us in the present time, then what?

Scripture tells us there is a consequence.

And no, it is not according to the false doctrine of the Romanists, as this false doctrine was developed according to the way of the Nicolaitian system, that of seperating the clergy from the laity and thus giving headship to some over others according to human reasoning and effort.

Keep in mind that the wickedness of the Romanist institution is found in its twisting of the truth of God to accomplish human ambition.

Not all will sin.

No, the fact is, all are sinners in their being and thus sin by simply being.

So I ask again are babies sinless from a Protestant perspective?

No. All men, no matter what age, are sinners and are need of salvation.

The scriptures tell us though, that God's judgement of a man is according to that which he has been given.

It is though, a lie that the Romanist teach; this being that a child can be covered by its parents giving this child to the apostate institution in baptism.

Are you ascribing to original sin?

Sin is the manifestation of Satan's mind. It is not a doctrine.

Christ died so did he sin too?

Christ died from His choice to become a substitue sacrifice, according to the requirements of the law God gave to the Jews, and not as a result of Him being a sinner.


In love,
cj

 

[thessalonian]

Someone who hasn't sinned has sinned? :smt017 No, I don't think it changes anything. I have my answers to these questions. I know why Christ died. I was trying to get Solo's persepctive on them but thanks for taking a stab at them.

Blessings

 

[cj]

Someone who hasn't sinned has sinned?

Ahhhh, that's not what I said.

Again, follow your own advice and read more carefully.

I know why Christ died.

Are you sure about that?

In love,
cj

 

[thessalonian]

Ahhhh, that's not what I said.

I know. You basically said that it was a sin to be born a man. Very sad.

Are you sure about that?

Quite.