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Was Mosaic Law Abrogated at the Cross?

Did Jesus nullify the Law?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Maybe so

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Don't know

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    5
G

Georges

Guest
Was Mosaic Law nailed to the cross to be made no longer any effect?

In other words....should modern Christians be obeying the Law of God, that is Torah?
 
I like this question.

I think that the Torah is something we all should obey in loving obedience as it pertains to us individually. I am not an expert on Torah, but I have read the laws before, and many of them we already obey without even knowing that they are the written Torah. I think this is because it is written on our hearts, and even one who does not have the Torah, or is uneducated, can obey. The spirit of the law is more important than the letter in this sense...meaning that things can be, and should be, obeyed in principal. These principle applications will numerically amount to more than just over 600 by far, and keep us from not doing right based on a technicality...which is an act of self-righteousness. We should be going beyond the Torah, as Christ did. This is why we walk in the Spirit. I think the questions start to arise when we are trying to understand which laws apply to us, and what the principle behind certain laws happens to be concerning the written Torah. The Holy Spirit will teach us. The Holy Spirit was sent to believers to help them obey the law, by convicting them of the law that has now been written on their hearts, but the law was not done away with at all...it has been fulfilled in Christ (which consists of more than a written Torah), and we are to obey Him out of love, and walk as He walked in obedience to the Father. We must go beyond the Torah, imo, by obeying in the heart out of love willingly. The Lord bless you.
 
Christ replaced the sacrificial laws with his sacrifice on the cross. The moral law is still in effect. However it requires his grace from the cross to have freedom from the moral law. That is not license to sin for where there is sin grace abounds. Thus we are to overcome our sins by grace. God is patient with us. I didn't vote because this view isn't in the options.
 
I always say that the moral laws out of the 613 still stand. Like don't sleep with your sister, don't cheat people out of money that work for you.
 
lovely said:
I like this question.

I think that the Torah is something we all should obey in loving obedience as it pertains to us individually. I am not an expert on Torah, but I have read the laws before, and many of them we already obey without even knowing that they are the written Torah. I think this is because it is written on our hearts, and even one who does not have the Torah, or is uneducated, can obey. The spirit of the law is more important than the letter in this sense...meaning that things can be, and should be, obeyed in principal. These principle applications will numerically amount to more than just over 600 by far, and keep us from not doing right based on a technicality...which is an act of self-righteousness. We should be going beyond the Torah, as Christ did. This is why we walk in the Spirit. I think the questions start to arise when we are trying to understand which laws apply to us, and what the principle behind certain laws happens to be concerning the written Torah. The Holy Spirit will teach us. The Holy Spirit was sent to believers to help them obey the law, by convicting them of the law that has now been written on their hearts, but the law was not done away with at all...it has been fulfilled in Christ (which consists of more than a written Torah), and we are to obey Him out of love, and walk as He walked in obedience to the Father. We must go beyond the Torah, imo, by obeying in the heart out of love willingly. The Lord bless you.

I can dig it......
 
thessalonian said:
Christ replaced the sacrificial laws with his sacrifice on the cross. The moral law is still in effect. However it requires his grace from the cross to have freedom from the moral law. That is not license to sin for where there is sin grace abounds. Thus we are to overcome our sins by grace.

Christ did not replace the sacrificial Laws...proof being Paul even sacrificed as required by James (Acts 21 Nazarite Vow). Also the fact that Messiah (the prince in Ezekiel 40-44) will be performing sacrifices during the Messianic Millennium.
Thess, by your comment's above, you vote abrogated.....whtther you click the yes button or not...

Thess...some could take that as a liscence to sin....the more you sin, the more grace abounds?

God is patient with us. I didn't vote because this view isn't in the options.

No..I didn't put a "God is patient" option...the question was, in effect, "Did Jesus abrogate the Law on the cross"?

Here's your chance to vote again...."click, NO"...... :)
 
I voted NO.

Matthew 5:17 "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them. 18 I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved. 19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

I haven't seen heaven and earth disappear yet, so the law still stands as given by God and as written in our hearts.
 
You got 3 mods in a row because they watch your posts so closely :lol: I also can dig lovely's answer. I always really enjoy your post lovely. You have wisdom of the word and you express it well.
 
Bruchko said:
You got 3 mods in a row because they watch your posts so closely :lol: I also can dig lovely's answer. I always really enjoy your post lovely. You have wisdom of the word and you express it well.
Like hawk watches a chicken, like a cat watches a bird, like a lion watches it's prey, and on, and on, and on :D :-D
 
Georges said:
Was Mosaic Law nailed to the cross to be made no longer any effect?

In other words....should modern Christians be obeying the Law of God, that is Torah?

As a "Modern Christian" with a "Modern Bible" I'm with the "Modern Apostle" on this one:

"... written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts."
2 Corinthians 3:3

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenantâ€â€not of the letter [on stone] but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Corinthians 3:6

"Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?"
2 Corinthians 3:7-8

"If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
2 Corinthians 3:9-11

"We [The Modern Christians]are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away"
2 Corinthians 3:13

Read the whole chapter here 2 Corinthians 3:1-17

Please find out why it was abolished!
 
The true answer that is not leading is:

No, Jesus did not nullify the Law, he fulfilled the Law. In the past one believed that one should not commit adultery, but with Jesus fulfilling the Law, now if one looks at another with lust in their eye they have comitted adultery in their heart. In the past one believed that one should not murder another, but with Jesus fulfilling the Law, if one is angry with one's brother, that one is guilty of murder. In the past, one believed that they were to keep one day out of the week holy and separated unto the LORD, but with Jesus fulfilling the Law, now one is to keep every day separated unto the LORD; resting from ones own work, and being about the work of God the Father.

We are not sold to Keep the Law, but are bought by Jesus Christ to walk in the Spirit whereby we do not need to keep the Law in the flesh; for the Law is not required by the Spirit.

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Galatians 5:13-18
 
xicali said:
Georges said:
Was Mosaic Law nailed to the cross to be made no longer any effect?

In other words....should modern Christians be obeying the Law of God, that is Torah?

As a "Modern Christian" with a "Modern Bible" I'm with the "Modern Apostle" on this one:

"... written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts."
2 Corinthians 3:3

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenantâ€â€not of the letter [on stone] but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Corinthians 3:6

"Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?"
2 Corinthians 3:7-8

"If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
2 Corinthians 3:9-11

"We [The Modern Christians]are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away"
2 Corinthians 3:13

Read the whole chapter here 2 Corinthians 3:1-17

Please find out why it was abolished!

Mr. X.....which was written first, The Letters of Paul, or the Gospels? and I also ask, which was written first, The Letters attributed to Paul, or the Revelation of Jesus Christ?

I believe the correct answer for both is The Letters of Paul....

With that in mind, why would not the Gospels mention the abrogation if they were written after Paul? Why does Jesus say heaven and earth will pass before the Torah passes if these are written after the Pauline letters?

And, did you know that "Works" is mentioned no less than 14 times in the Book of Revelation where Grace is only mentioned 3 times...?

So, is the Law really abrogated?
 
Romans 7

Do you not know, brothersâ€â€for I am speaking to men who know the lawâ€â€that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

And there you go Georges. I know you don't accept Paul but that's your problem I guess.
 
I believe the third chapter of Romans.

Rom 3:19-31 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all* who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
 
I put this together a while ago, I don't know if I still agree with it, or would word it the same, take it for what it's worth.
_______________________________________________________

It's important to keep in mind, the Law didn't make anything wrong (except the Sabbath) that wasn't already wrong. Following is a mixed post of quotes, mostly mine but some are taken from unsited sources.

From the time of Adam, it was wrong to kill, steal, or lie. Law merely added penalties (and they are strictly limited to Israel) for breaking the Law.

It was to be carried out by the Jewish leaders (quote: 'notice that God protected the murderer Cain, because there was no law yet, and, therefore, no penalty.')

No one today who believes we are under the Law would advocate putting church members to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. That's why Paul says in Galatians, "you who desire to be under the Law, do you not hear the Law? (4:21).

The believer is not under the Law in any sense as we read in Rom. 6:14, because Jesus our Lord has already paid the death penalty demanded of those who break it (Rom. 6:6; 7:4) Remember what James wrote, you're dead after breaking the Law once (James 2:10). From that point on (a death sentence) being under a law is meaningless, because you can only die once, so the second murder, etc., are freebies. What happens to a condemned murderer on death row who kills a guard?

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:2- 3).

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another [there could not be another gospel]; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:6-8 ).

The doctrine many folks keep bringing up without realizing it is called "active righteousness" and ends up in the believer being under the law because Christ kept the Law. Reformed writer Dr. R. C. Sproul sums it like this: The cross alone, however, does not justify us . . . We are justified not only by the death of Christ, but also by the life of Christ. Christ's mission of redemption was not limited to the cross. To save us He had to live a life of perfect righteousness. His perfect, active obedience was necessary for His and our salvation . . . We are constituted as righteous by the obedience of Christ which is imputed to us by faith [R. C. Sproul, Faith Alone, (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1997), p. 103].

The question then is, does following the Law make one righteous? Was Abram declared rigtheous because of his works or his faith? Jesus is perfect, He is God and did the will of the Father perfectly “For Christ once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh . . .†1 Peter 3:18 “. . . being justified by His blood we shall be saved from wrath through Him†Rom.5:9. We are justified and seen as righteous because of Christ's death and not His perfect Law keeping. Our justication is in the risen Christ, He is our righteousness, not Christ Law keeping in our place, "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Gal. 3

So what is the purpose of the Law if it doesn't make one righteous? The Law was a school master ("Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.") and as the school master of the Mosaic covenant, it showed the Jewish nation their sins and condemned those under the Law.

William Kelly wrote: Had Christ only kept the law, neither your soul nor mine could have been saved much less be blessed as we are. Whoever kept the law, it would have been a righteousness of the law, and not God's righteousness, which has not the smallest connection with obeying the law. Because Christ obeyed unto death, God brought in a new kind of righteousness â€â€not ours, but His own favor. Christ has been made a curse upon the tree; God has made Him sin for us that we might be the righteousness of God in Him.

Note: This is the Biblical view, it's not antinomianism (The word comes from the Greek anti, against, and nomos, law. It is the unbiblical practice of living without regard to the righteousness of God, using God's grace as a license to sin, and trusting grace to cleanse of sin.) http://www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_a-b.htm#_1_7 In no way am I suggesting that we live sinful lives, that's a red herring.

Here's a wonderful story to explain the relationship a believer has with the carnal nature and the Law.

Romans 7:

Notice first that in the picture by which, in Romans 7:1-4, Paul illustrates our deliverance from the Law, there is only one woman, while there are two husbands. The woman is in a very difficult position, for she can only be wife of one of the two, and unfortunately she is married to the less desirable one. Let us make no mistake, the man to whom she is married is a good man; but the trouble lies here, that the husband and wife are totally unsuited to one another. He is a most particular man, accurate to a degree; she on the other hand is decidedly easy-going. With him all is definite and precise; with her all is casual and haphazard. He wants everything just so, while she takes things as they come. How could there be happiness in such a home?

And then that husband is so exacting! He is always making demands upon her. And yet one cannot find fault with him, for as a husband he has a right to expect something of his wife; and besides, all his demands are perfectly legitimate. There is nothing wrong with the man and nothing wrong with his demands; the trouble is that he has the wrong kind of wife to carry them out. The two cannot get on at all; theirs are utterly incompatible natures. Thus the poor woman is in great distress. She is fully aware that she often makes mistakes, but living with such a husband it seems as though EVERYTHING she says and does is wrong! What hope is there for her? If only she were married to that other Man all would be well. He is no less exacting than her husband, but He also helps much. She would fain marry Him, but her husband is still alive. What can she do? She is "bound by law to the husband" and unless he dies she cannot legitimately marry that other Man.

The first husband is the Law; the second husband is Christ; and you are the woman. The law requires much, but offers no help in the carrying out of its requirements. The Lord Jesus requires just as much, yea more, but what He requires from us He Himself carries out in us. The law makes demands and leaves us helpless to fulfill them; Christ makes demands, but He Himself fulfills in us the very demands He makes. Little wonder that the woman desires to be freed from the first husband that she may marry that other Man! But her only hope of release is through the death of her first husband, and he holds on to life most tenaciously. Indeed there is not the least prospect of his passing away (see Matthew 5:18).

The law is going to continue for all eternity. If the Law will never pass away, then how can I ever be united to Christ? How can I marry a second husband if my first husband resolutely refuses to die? There is only one way out. If HE will not die, I can die, and if I die the marriage relationship is dissolved. And that is exactly God’s way of deliverance from the Law. The most important point to note in this section of Romans 7 is the transition from verse 3 to verse 4. Verses 1 to 3 show that the husband should die, but in verse 4 we see that in fact it is the woman who dies. The Law does not pass away, but I pass away, and by death I am freed from the Law. [Footnote #15--Watchman Nee, THE NORMAL CHRISTIAN LIFE, pages 107-109 (Chapter 9).]

So what is the basis as a rule of life for the believer?

Quote: We are fully convinced that a superstructure of true, practical holiness can never be erected on a legal basis; and hence it is that we press 1 Cor 1:30, upon the attention of our readers. It is to be feared that many who have, in some measure, abandoned the legal ground, in the matter of "righteousness," are yet lingering thereon for "sanctification." We believe this to be the mistake of thousands, and we are most anxious to see it corrected. It is evident that a sinner cannot be justified by the works of the law; and it is equally evident that the law is not the rule of the believer’s life. As to the believer’s rule of life, the apostle does not say, "To me to live is the law;" but, "To me to live is Christ" (Phil. 1:21). Christ is our rule, our model, our touchstone, our all. We receive the Ten Commandments as part of the canon of inspiration; and moreover, we believe that the law remains in full force to rule and curse a man as long as he liveth. Let a sinner only try to get life by it, and see where it will put him; and let a believer only shape his way according to it, and see what it will make of him. We are fully convinced that if a man is walking according to the spirit of the gospel, he will not commit murder nor steal; but we are also convinced that a man, confining himself to the standard of the law of Moses would fall very short of the spirit of the gospel. – C.H. MACKINTOSH [Footnote #9--THE MACKINTOSH TREASURY– MISCELLANEOUS WRITINGS BY C.H.Mackintosh, p. 628, 653-654].

I stand with Paul when he wrote, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I LIVE BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Gal. 2:20 Because of Christ, I am a new creature (Gal. 6:15-16) set apart from the Law (2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:8-10; 4:24; Col. 3:10)

Peace and God bless.

Jason
 
mutzrein said:
Romans 7

Do you not know, brothersâ€â€for I am speaking to men who know the lawâ€â€that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

And there you go Georges. I know you don't accept Paul but that's your problem I guess.

Not my problem...my friend....

BTW, it's funny (strange) that you should post these verses...in the pdf that we keep missing each other on...is a chapter dedicated to this set of verses. The premise is that in Revelation, Jesus commends those of Pergamos....

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

In the pdf, it contends that Paul teaches that all things are OK to eat, and in Rev, it says that there are those who "hold the doctrine of Balaam", that is they eat meat Sacrifice to Idols....What does Paul say? In essence "It's ok to eat meat sacrificed to idols because Idol;s are just stone images...", so there is no harm in it...Paul says its ok, Jesus in Revelation says not...

Now, to your verses...notice in the Rev verses I posted....in association with meat/idols, is the second barb "commiting fornication". The pdf proves that Paul gives the OK to commit that sin by the very verses you just posted..
 
I ask the same question to the group that I asked Mr.X....

Was Revelation written before or after the Pauline letters?

Here is a little homework....

How many times is "Works" mentioned in Revelation...in a salvation mode?

How many times is "Faith" mentioned in Revelation?...in a salvation mode?

and....Drumroll please.........the biggie......pay attention kiddies....

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Can't spin it any other way folks....

and,

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

and behind door number 3...

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Someone forgot to tell Jesus that God's Law was Abrogated...... :oops:
 
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