Was Mosaic Law Abrogated at the Cross?

[Georges]

OK Genius....dispute the entire thread...or,

I just mess with you Georges - you have no final authority so I quit trying to convince folks like you of anything scriptural or spiritual - can't be done by me.

I'm with AV on this one...

Does that mean that you two are in agreement that Paul's words supersede Jesus' words in Revelation? Anyone else think Paul's words supersede Jesus' in progressive revelation? Cause if that's the case Revelation was written well after Paul's epistles...

Let me get this straight....Paul's words supersede Jesus' because Paul came after Jesus, yet Jesus (in Revelation) comes after Paul, yet his word's in Revelation don't supersede Paul's? Yeh....that makes sense....

X and AV, is that what both of you are saying? Since both of you posted, and alluded to it, I think you should make that clear...yes or no....

Georges, Mr. "X" here...and I speak for my self.

Mr. X is a term of affection...I hope you realize that...

The words of Paul are the words of the resurected Christ.

Yet Mr. X, I don't think that Paul ever quotes Christ directly...He never alludes to a "thus saith Christ" type of wording, nor does he refer to any miracles, or expound on any parables....nothing....

The words of Christ on the Historical book of Mathew:
"Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust." [This profile fits only to Paul or rather Christ in Paul]. Matthew 12:17-21


My goodness Mr. X....Matthew quotes Isaiah concerning the Messiah not Paul.....Isaiah is not prophesying Paul....Niether is Matthew...Matthew is showing that Jesus is the one to whom Isaiah is reffering to in his prophecy...

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20

Paul at his Gnostic best....and Paul's word...not taught anywhere else...

"And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus." Galatians 4:14

see quote above....So...Paul is saying he is an angel of God, and see's himself like Jesus Christ? Hmmm.....well you've made a case for yourself....hope you're right....I don't see any of the other Apostles equating themselves with Christ....

Besides the Mosaic Law was never intended for the Gentile believer:

Wrong there....Jewish traditon has it that the Torah was also offered to the 70 gentile nations at Sinai...only Israel accepted...

The statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. Deuteronomy 5:1-3 The Fathers were Jews?

We don't despise the Law it just that it has become enriched in our Spirit and no need to execute it for pointers.

The question I asked, to quote Michael Medved "Focus like a laser beam"...is Does Paul's word supersede Jesus'....? A simple yes or no.....

No more Paul is Jesus crap....please...a plain and simple yes or no...

 

[Georges]

Re: Two Laws/Moses Law & The Godheads Universal Etrnal/C

John here:

John.....focus like a laser beam....A simple yes, or no.

Does Paul's word supesede Jesus' word?

Yes or No....

No paragraphs of babbling allowed....Yes or No.

 

[xicali]

Re: Two Laws/Moses Law & The Godheads Universal Etrnal/C

John.....focus like a laser beam....A simple yes, or no.

Does Paul's word supesede Jesus' word?

Yes or No....

No paragraphs of babbling allowed....Yes or No.

Georges, Paul's words are Christ's words under a new dispensation [a new and better way]...no body in it's right mind is going to answer what you want to hear.

I'm saying this to you in a loving brotherly way. I know you are indeed saved, God is using you for the Gentile believer so they can wake up to Grace. :

 

[lovely]

I do not believe that Paul contradicts Christ in this matter at all. Paul does not teach that Jesus abolished the law. The Lord bless you.

 

[mutzrein]

I do not believe that Paul contradicts Christ in this matter at all. Paul does not teach that Jesus abolished the law. The Lord bless you.

I agree with your first statement Lovely, however in regard to your second, what do you think the following means?

Galatians 3:19-25

What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

 

[R7-12]

Galatians 3:19-25 is speaking about a specific aspect, or law, in the law of God.

Within the entire law of God are numerous individual laws i.e. tithing, clean and unclean, hygiene, marriage, inheritance, land Sabbaths, etc..

The specific law spoken of here is that of the sacrificial ordinances within the temple system given to the nation of Israel. It was added (as a means to deal with sin on a physical level) until "the seed" should come - who became our perfect, premament, unblemished sacrifice and thus replaced the law that was added temporarily - the sacrificial ordinances.

The law was given to Moses by the Angel of YHVH as the Scriptures say and this being later became the Christ. Accept it or reject it - that's each person's decision but that is what the bible teaches - which one will find if one diligently seeks the truth and accepts what is written.

The law of sacrifice was not given to impart life but to purify the flesh which becomes unclean with sin. It was never given as a means to earn life or be owed everlasting life through numerous and continual offerings, but that's what Israel and later the Jews tried to do.

They tried to pursue the law of righteousness through the works of the law (offering animal blood) instead of by faith in the blood of Christ. They trusted the first system because they knew it well and erroneously believed it was sufficient to attain righteousness. Thus they rejected the true sacrifice which, when they learned of him, rejected the notion that a man could die for their sins - hence Christ became their stumbling stone.

The Gentiles however, did attain to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith because they believed God and thus accepted His son as the perfect offering which pays for their transgressions by faith (cf. Romans 9:30-33).

None of this concerns obedience to the law because that was never in question - it was a "no-brainer."

If you love God you obey Him - period.

So when you read the expression, "the law could not impart life" remember it speaks of the law of animal sacrifice. This law could not atone for sin resulting in everlasting life becasue it was purely physical and not intended for that purpose. It was instead for teaching the offerers about concepts such as, the serious consequence of sin - requiring the life of the sinner, and repentance, sacrifice, forgiveness, faith, and that a better sacrifice is needed to pay for sin permamently which animals could not do. Thus it was a disciplinarian or school teacher, or tutor, that would lead the faithful, sincere servant of God to understand the deeper spiritual concepts found in the symbolism involved in every aspect of the temple ordinances and thus attain to righteousness by faith in God who would send Messiah, as told by the prophets of God. It was he whom all the symbols pictured and pointed to - which one would understand if he had faith and trusted and obeyed God.

Until then, the Israelites were in bondage to the law (of sacrifice) for two primary reasons. 1) Animal sacriifces were required for all significant breaches of the law thus resulting in the need to continually offer animals - without exception. This was a form of bondage, however, 2) The second reason reveals the greater form of bondage. Since the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin, all Isrealites retained the penalty for their sins (death) preventing them from attaining to everlsating life.

Life could only be granted by faith in the one true God who will save all who trust that He can and will raise them from the dead because the offering He will provide in the form of His son is sufficient. That's why king David was saved. He understood the function of sacrifice but even more importantly he understood that God desired faith and obedience. Consider reading Psalms 51.

Whenever someone realizes that Jesus Christ is the sacrifice that can cover our transgressions against the law, thus making it possible for us to be deemed or judged righteous by God the Father, then faith has come.

Therefore, upon repentance, baptism and the laying on of hands for the receipt of the Holy Spirit, the servant of God is no longer under the guardianship of the sacrificial ordinances (if he is under the first covenant), but rather, is now under the direction of the Spirit of God under the new covenant and therefore a son and no longer a slave.

Those who are not under the first covenant (learning faith through the physical activities involved in animal sacrifice), and do not accept that God requires obedience to His commandments, are in fact neither called nor chosen and without hope until the second resurrection. For the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and will thus bring us to Christ who is the end (goal or thing aimed at) of the law - the sacrificial law - not the Ten Commandments.

Because the law of God is enmity to the carnal mind, the sacrifices will be re-introduced during the millennium to bring those who survived the last days, to begin learning from scratch and thus lead them to Christ.

Having said that, the place one must begin is John 17:3. If we do not know the one true God, and Jesus Christ who was sent by the one true God, then the rest will never make perfect sense to our carnal disobedient minds.

Salaam,
R7-12

 

[lovely]

Hi mutzrein,

I don't know if you saw my first post, but I stand by it, and my second. Do you think that Paul is teaching the Galatians that they do not have to obey the law, or that they are not saved by following laws that do not pertain to them? Paul tells us in Romans, "What shall we say then, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!" "How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?" Romans 6:1-3 LOVE fulfills the law, and grace saves us because we can not keep the whole law, but the law that is written in our hearts surpasses (and includes that which pertains to us) the Torah, and Jesus will judge us by it because we are required to obey Him out of love, and the Spirit gives us the ability. In fact, the Spirit gives us freedom to obey more than the Torah because it is written on our hearts, and our conscience bears witness for us. Romans 3 and Romans 6:12-23 Paul is telling us to not attempt any longer to be justified by the law, but he is not saying that it no longer exists as it pertains to us. Just as James teaches us that our works are part of our justification...why? James 1:14-26 Because, now that we have the Spirit in us we are free to obey Christ, and walk after Him. Here's the thing, if we walk in the Spirit, we are led by the Spirit ,and not under the law, but does that mean that Paul is telling us that obedience isn't required? No, that means that we are no longer slaves to the flesh, and under the law to train us, but that we are slaves to the Spirit, and free to obey the law more... in the Spirit!

Paul....teaches that we are no longer saved by the law as the Jews once were (having Christ as our ultimate sacrifice) so to attempt to be saved by obeying the law only (which we can not even do) apart from the Spirit, is actually self-righteous sin, and making the cross void. But, he is not teaching us to no longer obey the law at all. In fact, he calls us to to a higher form of the law as we are enabled to obey it freely in the Spirit. Galatians 2:17 Galatians 5:16-24 Here, Paul is teaching us that walking in the Spirit will help us avoid fulfilling the flesh. He is encouraging us to obey in the Spirit! Galatians 3:2-4 Here, Paul is saying if we have the Spirit, know that this is our salvation, and continue in the Spirit...this is how we can obey fully in our hearts, not by the flesh has no righteousness to begin with. The Gentiles did not need to obey laws that did not pertain to them, and in doing so were trying to save themselves. This is makes us hypocrites. To obey for the sake of appearance, or for false security, is to deny Christ's work on the cross.

James 2:18-24 James teaches us that faith without works is dead, and that we are justified by works. Is that a contradiction to what Paul teaches? No, because James is emphasizing that claiming the Spirit, and not having any works, is a dead faith. Faith, and works, go hand in hand for a believer, and we are justified by both because they are inseparable. We know in Acts that James agrees with what Paul taught to the Galatians.

John, who clarifies it best for us, imo. He teaches that we must obey the law...specifically the two that the commandments hang on because all else aligns to them...or we are not saved at all. Is this faith by works alone? No, this is faith that is evident by our works, and this is how we are justified. 1 John 5:2-5 When we love God, we keep His commandments...this is a demonstration of our faith given by the Spirit.

Jesus tells us simply in John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Jesus holds us to a higher standard of the law. Matthew 5, Matthew 6, and Matthew 7 Jesus tells us that if we do not obey the law in our heart, and our thoughts, then we are breaking the law...this is far beyond Torah, but also including it as it pertains to us as individuals. Jesus shows us how we could never obey perfectly this high standard, and shows us how much we need grace, but in that grace we should love Him by loving His law.

So, I am not saying that we are saved by self-righteous works, but I can not say that grace exists apart from works either...the Spirit enables us to obey in the Spirit, and resist the flesh, and it is portioned correctly in each person's understanding, and ability, because it is in the heart. This is why we can not judge man on this for only God sees the heart. I thought that we were actually pretty close to agreement on this aspect of the Word, mutzrein.

I am in a hurry this morning. I do not have time to edit, so I apologize for any repetitive parts...this tends to be my weakness in writing. The Lord bless all of you today.

 

[JM]

John Gill wrote: The law is in the hands of Christ as a rule of walk and conversation, directing believers how to conduct and behave themselves under his influence. The whole scripture, given by inspiration of God, is the standard of faith and practice, and the rule of both; the gospel-part of it is profitable for doctrine, and is the test of that; and the law-part of it respects duty, and points to that; wherefore to the law and to the testimony; if men speak not, and act not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isai. 8:20) Christ is king and lawgiver in his house and kingdom, the church and besides some positive commands which he has delivered out, there is a repetition of the law in the New Testament; a new edition of it, published under the authority and sanction of Christ; so that we are now under the law to him, (1 Cor. 9:21) and under new obligations to obey it, as held forth by him. And it is to be obeyed from love, in faith, and to the glory of God, without any sinister, selfish, mercenary ends and views. It is to he obeyed from love to God and Christ; the end of the commandment is charity, or love; out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and faith unfeigned: (1 Tim. 1:5) not the terrors of the law, but the love of Christ constrains believers in him to yield a cheerful obedience to it: which they do through faith in him, depending on him for grace and strength to serve him in it. Of all men in the world none are under greater obligations to be careful to maintain good works than believers, and none so capable of performing them as they, and none so ready to do them; and in doing which they seek not themselves, but the glory of God; and which, as it should be, they make their chief end, as in civil things, so much more in religious duties; and when they have done all they can, and are assisted to do, they own they are but unprofitable servants; do not and cannot merit any thing at the hands of God, but expect eternal life and salvation as the free gift of God through Christ. And now, true believers, who behold the law in the hand of Christ, and as fulfilled by him, delight in it, after the inward man; and though with the flesh they serve the law of sin, to the grief and distress of their souls, yet with the mind the law of God. (Rom. 7:22, 25) http://www.pbministries.org/books/gill/ ... mon_32.htm

LBC 1689 19:5 The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
( Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12; James 2:10, 11; Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:31 )

Would you ever try to tell someone to "keep yourself looking tidding" without a mirror? The Law is a mirror

Gadsby's Catechism
Wherein does disobedience to God's law consist?
ANSWER. Disobedience to God's law consists in sinful thoughts, words and works.
Deut. 27.26; Prov. 24. 9; Jer. 17.9; Matt. 12.36 & 15.18-20; Rom. 6.23; Gal. 3.10; l Jn. 3.4.

Saved by Grace and not Law, Carter Lane Declaration 1757: 7. We believe, That the justification of God's Elect is only by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, without the consideration of any works of righteousness done by them; and that the full and free pardon of all their sins and transgressions, past, present and to come, is only through the blood of Christ according to the riches of his grace. http://www.the-faith.org.uk/carterlane.html

C. H. Spurgeon on Gal. 3:19 Most men when they discover themselves to be guilty, avow that they will reform. They say, "I have been guilty and have deserved God's wrath, but for the future I will seek to win a stock of merits which shall counterbalance all my old sins." In steps the law, puts its hand on the sinner's mouth, and says, "Stop, you cannot do that, it is impossible." I will show you how the law does this. It does it partly thus, by reminding the man that future obedience can be no atonement for past guilt. To use a common metaphor that the poor may thoroughly understand me, you have run up a score at your chop. Well, you cannot pay it. You go off to Mrs. Brown, your shopkeeper, and you say to her, "Well, I am sorry, ma'am, that through my husband being out of work," and all that, "I know I shall never be able to pay you. It is a very great debt I owe you, but, if you please ma'am, if you forgive me this debt I will never get into your debt any more; I will always pay for all I have." "Yes," she would say, "but that will not square our accounts. If you do pay for all you have, it would be no more than you ought to do. But what about the old bills? How are they to be receipted? They won't be receipted by all your fresh payments." That is just what men do towards God. "True," they say, "I have gone far astray I know; but then I won't do so any more." Ah, it was time you threw away such child's talk. You do but manifest your rampant folly by such a hope. Can you wipe away your trangression by future obedience? Ah, no. The old debt must be paid somehow. God's justice is inflexible, and the law tells you all your requirements can make no atonement for the past. You must have an atonement through Christ Jesus the Lord. "But," says the man, "I will try and be better, and then I think I shall have mercy given to me." Then the law steps in and says, "You are going to try and keep me, are you? Why, man, you cannot do it." http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0128.HTM

"The law is good if a man use it lawfully." 1 Tim. i. 8.

 

[Georges]

Re: Two Laws/Moses Law & The Godheads Universal Etrnal/C

John.....focus like a laser beam....A simple yes, or no.

Does Paul's word supesede Jesus' word?

Yes or No....

No paragraphs of babbling allowed....Yes or No.

Georges, Paul's words are Christ's words under a new dispensation [a new and better way]...no body in it's right mind is going to answer what you want to hear.


It's a simple yes or no question...Do Paul's words supersede Jesus'...? I want you to answer yes or no...not what you think I want to hear....

I'm saying this to you in a loving brotherly way. I know you are indeed saved, God is using you for the Gentile believer so they can wake up to Grace. :

Whether I'm saved or not is for God to decide...I don't know if God is using me for anything...what is so obvious to me isn't to the greater many...but, I do ask the fun questions...

 

[Georges]

I can't believe the folks in forumville.....

I presented an OP based on Jesus' words in Revelation...the last written book in the Bible.....I thought the premise infallible...

He says "I know thy works"....and "works" is used no less than 14 times in Revelation...works is at the most full Torah compliance, at the least the Jamesian commandments.....

Yet the forumites cling to the "works as bondage" mentality of Paul...


There are those who claim Jesus' words as moot in Revelation because they grasp Paul's words as Gospel instead of Jesus'.

Even more amazing, there are those who claim Paul does not contradict Jesus....they fail to recognize the letters to the Churches in Revelation as correcting Paul's teachings....

One more time....I'll present the Revelation verses....

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Rev 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last [to be] more than the first.

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

This really burns my butt..."their works aren't perfect".....shouldn't matter if they have faith....that should see them through....

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I'm befuddled..... :roll:

 

[John the Baptist]

I suggest the reason that your butt burnes is because you are a legalist. But you do not know what that means either.

And this Paul stuff? Well, let me say it straight out for all of the ones who censor here, too see, this [[[guy??]]] is going to get much more than [his butt BURNED!] See Obadiah 1:16

---John

PS: Why don't you go 'puff' your premature smoke somewhere else?
Quote:
"Even more amazing, there are those who claim Paul does not contradict Jesus....they fail to recognize the letters to the Churches in Revelation as correcting Paul's teachings.... " Revelation 22:18-19 & Ecclesiastes 3:14

 

[Georges]

I suggest the reason that your butt burnes is because you are a legalist. But you do not know what that means either.

I'm afraid I do...Brother John....and I'm not....still, it doesn't matter...Jesus said what he said in Revelation...so I guess you can call Jesus a legalist by your definition...

And this Paul stuff? Well, let me say it straight out for all of the ones who censor here, too see, this [[[guy??]]] is going to get much more than [his butt BURNED!] See Obadiah 1:16

Well John, at least I didn't say "A**".....oh! is that cussing? Anyway, I wasn't calling you one...so it didn't need to be censored. It was a comparison as to how I felt in reaction to a "salvation by faith only" as a one time deal...

---John

PS: Why don't you go 'puff' your premature smoke somewhere else?

Talk about smoking smoking something....I bet you'll say you didn't inhale...I think maybe you did..... :D

Quote:
"Even more amazing, there are those who claim Paul does not contradict Jesus....they fail to recognize the letters to the Churches in Revelation as correcting Paul's teachings.... " Revelation 22:18-19 & Ecclesiastes 3:14

John....are you Pentecostal? You, as usual, are typing in tongues.... :-D :-D