Was Mosaic Law Abrogated at the Cross?

[TanNinety]

Matthew 5:17 "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them. 18 I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved. 19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Romans 7 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Paul just slam debunked what Jesus had to say. Good thing we have paul to tell us what to do. (I know I know ..Jesus had to change His mind once He went to heaven so He could reveal to us the “new†truth from someone who said “look here Jesus is in the desertâ€Â)

 

[xicali]

I ask the same question to the group that I asked Mr.X....

Was Revelation written before or after the Pauline letters?

Here is a little homework....

How many times is "Works" mentioned in Revelation...in a salvation mode?

How many times is "Faith" mentioned in Revelation?...in a salvation mode?

and....Drumroll please.........the biggie......pay attention kiddies....

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Can't spin it any other way folks....

and,

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

and behind door number 3...

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Someone forgot to tell Jesus that God's Law was Abrogated...... :

Hi Georges...

The book of revelation was given to John by an Angel c. 95.
Revelation 1:1

This book is for the circumcision and not for the followers of Christ in Paul.
because as gentile believers we are not of or from the tuelve trives of the remnant of Israel that is to be saved by Grace.

Observe: “...the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.â€Â
Galatians 1:11

“...If we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
Galatians 1:9

Galatians was written in c.49

 

[Lewis]

Bruchko

You got 3 mods in a row because they watch your posts so closely

And yes when I go on vaction I want George watched like a hawk.
Even J Edgar Hoover had George watched when he was alive.
Somebody get over there and stake out Georges house.

 

[Georges]

I ask the same question to the group that I asked Mr.X....

Was Revelation written before or after the Pauline letters?

Here is a little homework....

How many times is "Works" mentioned in Revelation...in a salvation mode?

How many times is "Faith" mentioned in Revelation?...in a salvation mode?

and....Drumroll please.........the biggie......pay attention kiddies....

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Can't spin it any other way folks....

and,

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

and behind door number 3...

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Someone forgot to tell Jesus that God's Law was Abrogated...... :

Hi Georges...

The book of revelation was given to John by an Angel c. 95.
Revelation 1:1

So the angel lied or was confused?...or were you answering the date question?

If you are suggesting that the "angel" lied or was confused....Consider this carefully, let me suggest to you that that angel was Jesus Christ in his role as the messenger of Jehovah...

Since you suggested the verse let me break it down for you....

Rev 1:1 ¶ The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Follow the colors closely.......

God
Jesus

The verse is repeating that God is sending Jesus to give the message to John...Revelation Chapter 1 clearly shows Jesus speaking to John giving him the message, therefore Jesus is the Angel (Messenger) of Jehovah.

This book is for the circumcision and not for the followers of Christ in Paul.

What you just said is the problem most Paulinists have..... Jesus' letters to the Churches are designed to correct what Paul had taught....Circumcision or not. Jesus knows their "works"....It is also a reason why M. Luther didn't think Revelation should be included in the canon.

because as gentile believers we are not of or from the tuelve trives of the remnant of Israel that is to be saved by Grace.

Hmmmmmm......with all due respect I think that is way out in left field....I will not be surprised if you are alone in this...I didn't even think that when I was a Paulinist Trinitarian...

Observe: “...the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.â€Â
Galatians 1:11

Gnosticism....and uncorroborated.....Paul's word only....Paul received the mystery knowledge.....So what you are saying (wrongly) is that Paul received his so called vision from Jesus, but John received his vision from an angel so therefore, Paul is legit and John's message is not? Hopefully, you will reconsider that...in light of the my explaining Rev 1:1 and the angel as being Jesus himself...

“...If we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
Galatians 1:9

Actually, you are misconstruing this passage, and wrong on 2 counts....First, this is Paul's defense because he has been found to be a false prophet by the Ephesians, who rightly measured Paul by the Torah, Jesus, and at that time James. Paul taught Torah abrogation, the others did not...Second, again you are claiming that Jesus (as the Angel delivering Jehovah's message to John) as being a liar purely on Paul's word in Gal 1:9.....

Wrong on both counts....and people think I'm a heretic?

Galatians was written in c.49

That's right, therefore as Revelation, the Gospels, James, Peter, John and Jude were written well after Paul to correct what Paul taught.

You really need to step back and look at what you had written.....

Paul received his mystery "uncorroborated" revelation in a vision from Jesus.....

yet,

The Book of Revelation is bogus because an "angel" gave the message to John?

 

[Georges]

Bruchko

You got 3 mods in a row because they watch your posts so closely

And yes when I go on vaction I want George watched like a hawk.
Even J Edgar Hoover had George watched when he was alive.

I'm not quite dead yet.......oh...you mean JEH.. :D

Somebody get over there and stake out Georges house.

If you stake out my house....make sure you bring the steaks..... :-D

 

[AVBunyan]

"Gnosticism....and uncorroborated.....Paul's word only

So, anybody can say, "Moses' word only", "David" word only", "Daniel's word only", and on and on and on.

You see how it is done folks - You don't like or agree with something in the scriptrues you just toss it out. :o

The old nature just hates final authority....doesn't it Georges?

Georges - you'd make a good seminary professor or you might consider getting into the modern version business. :-D

 

[Georges]

"Gnosticism....and uncorroborated.....Paul's word only

So, anybody can say, "Moses' word only", "David" word only", "Daniel's word only", and on and on and on.

You see how it is done folks - You don't like or agree with something in the scriptrues you just toss it out. :o

The old nature just hates final authority....doesn't it Georges?

Georges - you'd make a good seminary professor or you might consider getting into the modern version business. :-D

OK Genius....dispute the entire thread...or, are you like Mr X and think an angel gave John the Revelation, thereby negating it's authority...I know you as a Paulinist believe Paul when he says an angel gave Moses the 10 commandments....making both the Torah and Revelation, inferior to Paul's word.....

BTW....the men you mentioned are true prophets....all stating prophecy and all Torah observent....Paul isn't....Paul appears to be Torah observant, but teaches Torah negation...Torah observence is something Jesus Christ endorses in Revelation as I so easily pointed out (and you can't spin) in the Revelaton Scriptures in the previous posts...

Go away AV.....you have nothing of importance here....just a lot of hot air spin....

 

[AVBunyan]

OK Genius....dispute the entire thread...or,

I just mess with you Georges - you have no final authority so I quit trying to convince folks like you of anything scriptural or spiritiual - can't be done by me.

 

[Georges]

OK Genius....dispute the entire thread...or,

I just mess with you Georges - you have no final authority so I quit trying to convince folks like you of anything scriptural or spiritiual - can't be done by me.

If you are messing with me put a smiley face on it....I have no idea if you are kidding or not....My answer was like it was because of that...What I posted (the Rev verses) can't be disputed by you or anyone...Christ's words trump Paul's....

 

[xicali]

OK Genius....dispute the entire thread...or,

I just mess with you Georges - you have no final authority so I quit trying to convince folks like you of anything scriptural or spiritiual - can't be done by me.

I'm with AV on this one...

 

[Georges]

OK Genius....dispute the entire thread...or,

I just mess with you Georges - you have no final authority so I quit trying to convince folks like you of anything scriptural or spiritual - can't be done by me.

I'm with AV on this one...

Does that mean that you two are in agreement that Paul's words supersede Jesus' words in Revelation? Anyone else think Paul's words supersede Jesus' in progressive revelation? Cause if that's the case Revelation was written well after Paul's epistles...

Let me get this straight....Paul's words supersede Jesus' because Paul came after Jesus, yet Jesus (in Revelation) comes after Paul, yet his word's in Revelation don't supersede Paul's? Yeh....that makes sense....

X and AV, is that what both of you are saying? Since both of you posted, and alluded to it, I think you should make that clear...yes or no....

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Was Mosaic Law nailed to the cross to be made no longer any effect?

In other words....should modern Christians be obeying the Law of God, that is Torah?

I do not have a clear opinion on this issue, nor an "axe to grind", and unlike the majority of folks here, I am not convinced the scripture does not contradict itself in the first place. Having said that, though, it seems that there may be a distinction made between Jews and Gentiles, concerning the ceremonial aspects of Torah, even among those who both believe the gospel?

First, does the Torah pertain to the Gentiles at all? I believe that mainstream Judaism teaches it was and is specifically for the Jews as a people and that Gentiles who believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (we're not talking about Christians here, in their eyes) can have a realtionship with God apart from a strict observing of Torah. I believe these type Gentiles are referred to as "Noahides"?

But even in the NT this question is clearly addressed, although it concerns "Hebrew Christians" as opposed to Gentile believers in Christ...

"But some of the sect of the Pharisee's who had believed stood up, saying, It is necessary to circumsize them and to direct them to obey the law of Moses..(Acts.15:5)

And the response by James, although he is characterized as a "hard liner" compared to Paul...

"Therefore it is my judgement that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood" (Acts.15:19,20)

 

[Georges]

DP sorry.

 

[Georges]

Was Mosaic Law nailed to the cross to be made no longer any effect?

In other words....should modern Christians be obeying the Law of God, that is Torah?

I do not have a clear opinion on this issue, nor an "axe to grind", and unlike the majority of folks here, I am not convinced the scripture does not contradict itself in the first place. Having said that, though, it seems that there may be a distinction made between Jews and Gentiles, concerning the ceremonial aspects of Torah, even among those who both believe the gospel?


That is true...and I should have qualified the OP, There are differences in Torah law for Jew's, Proselytes, and God Fearer's. There are Torah laws that don't apply due to geographic location (ie out of Israel) and temple/mishkan absence. There are Laws that can't be kept due to circumstance. There are the Noahide Law that are applicable to all men. There are the Jamesian Laws (Acts 15, 21) that are similar to the Noahide law...both ideally lead to full Torah observance...milk to meat...

First, does the Torah pertain to the Gentiles at all?

Traditionally, it was offered to the 70 nations at Sinai during the first Pentecost (Shavout). Israel is the only nation to have accepted. Plus, Noahide law is Torah Lite....the Torah Law is Noahide Law fine tuned. And, in Acts 15 James gives his ruling on the 4 Noahide laws with the understanding that new believers will progress to full Torah observance...People don't like to hear that one, but the Ideal is to live righteously, and Torah provides the example (guide) how to accomplish that.

I believe that mainstream Judaism teaches it was and is specifically for the Jews as a people and that Gentiles who believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (we're not talking about Christians here, in their eyes) can have a relationship with God apart from a strict observing of Torah. I believe these type Gentiles are referred to as "Noahides"?

They may be, but those who believe in Jehovah, who don't want to identify with Israel and the promise to them by circumcision, but choose to follow the rules set forth by James...will have a part in the future Messianic Kingdom, although their role will be less...those who do more get more...

But even in the NT this question is clearly addressed, although it concerns "Hebrew Christians" as opposed to Gentile believers in Christ...

"But some of the sect of the Pharisee's who had believed stood up, saying, It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to obey the law of Moses..(Acts.15:5)

It's both Senor Brad....The Jewish Christians are expected to continue in Torah, the Gentile Christian are expected to follow Jamesian law with the understanding that Torah observance will be worked in to...milk to meat so to speak....Gentile converts who wish to fully proselytize (circumcise) to Nazarene Judaism, will observe Torah law and become full members of the Jewish community...in the future Messianic Kingdom, the Jew's believe the Gentiles who are God fearers will not have as high as place as full proselytes...

And the response by James, although he is characterized as a "hard liner" compared to Paul...

"Therefore it is my judgement that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood" (Acts.15:19,20)

Torah lite....

James continues....

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Contrary to popular belief, at the time of Christ, the Jews had a very aggressive Proselyte mission (program). The Synagogues of Asia Minor had many God Fears in attendance...men who were drawn to Judaism. James is addressing the God Fearers baiting them with the milk...luring them to the meat....First the easy commandments and then the more arduous ones...as they grew into full Torah observance. James, not requiring circumcision for Gentile God Fearer's recommends Torah Lite...with the understanding that the offer to Proselyte is always there...Very clever by James....hooking them, and reeling them in. Notice he doesn't forbid circumcision.....

Good observations...Brad..

 

[Georges]

And...Brad....

Consider the Churches in Asia Minor consist of Jew's, Proselytes, and God Fearer's. When Jesus says "I know your works", he means Torah, Noahide, and Jamesian works...Not to mention, that Revelation was written after Paul was kicked out of Asia Minor.....Even though Paul was kicked out, some of his teachings (Torah Negation) was gaining momentum among the Gentile converts...Jesus had John write to the 7 churches to counter that...

Most folks aren't aware that Paul appears to have been put on trial in Ephesus and his teachings were rejected in Asia Minor. This would also support Torah practice...

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

... keep the commandments of God...
...keep the commandments of God[/color]
...do his commandments

Obedience is a wonderful thing Georges. But it must be done through a willing heart. It is in seeking God, understanding His character, and knowing that He is righteous, that we come to the place where we want to obey. Knowing the reasons why goes a long way to reaching that understanding. That knowledge only comes through a relationship with the Lord. Reading the law without that relationship makes the law a list of dos and dont's. When we push the law, without establishing the relationship, we begin to appear as a Pharisee.
It is through a desire for righteousness that the Lord begins to do a molding and shaping in our heart that begins to conform us to His image.

Pro 9:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.

This is the first key:
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Here is another thing to consider:
Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

They must hunger and thirst. We can not spoon feed righteousness to anyone.

 

[Georges]

... keep the commandments of God...
...keep the commandments of God[/color]
...do his commandments

Obedience is a wonderful thing Georges. But it must be done through a willing heart. It is in seeking God, understanding His character, and knowing that He is righteous, that we come to the place where we want to obey.

Couldn't agree with you more....and I think you in essence state what Jesus was getting at when asked about the greatest commandment...

Knowing the reasons why goes a long way to reaching that understanding.

Couldn't agree with you more...

That knowledge only comes through a relationship with the Lord. Reading the law without that relationship makes the law a list of dos and dont's. When we push the law, without establishing the relationship, we begin to appear as a Pharisee.

Yes and no....The Pharisee's loved the Torah, the took thier own rules which surrounded the Torah a bit too far...that was the legalistic part...Most of the Jews who followed Jesus were Pharsee's.

It is through a desire for righteousness that the Lord begins to do a molding and shaping in our heart that begins to conform us to His image.

Agreed...

Pro 9:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.

This is the first key:
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Here is another thing to consider:
Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

They must hunger and thirst. We can not spoon feed righteousness to anyone.

Agree completely....and I think well said. OH oh....I think I just gave you the kiss of death... :D

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Agree completely....and I think well said. OH oh....I think I just gave you the kiss of death... :D

:smt058
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

 

[xicali]

OK Genius....dispute the entire thread...or,

I just mess with you Georges - you have no final authority so I quit trying to convince folks like you of anything scriptural or spiritual - can't be done by me.

I'm with AV on this one...

Does that mean that you two are in agreement that Paul's words supersede Jesus' words in Revelation? Anyone else think Paul's words supersede Jesus' in progressive revelation? Cause if that's the case Revelation was written well after Paul's epistles...

Let me get this straight....Paul's words supersede Jesus' because Paul came after Jesus, yet Jesus (in Revelation) comes after Paul, yet his word's in Revelation don't supersede Paul's? Yeh....that makes sense....

X and AV, is that what both of you are saying? Since both of you posted, and alluded to it, I think you should make that clear...yes or no....

Georges, Mr. "X" here...and I speak for my self.

The words of Paul are the words of the resurected Christ.

The words of Christ on the Historical book of Mathew:
"Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust." [This profile fits only to Paul or rather Christ in Paul]. Matthew 12:17-21

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20

"And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus." Galatians 4:14

Besides the Mosaic Law was never intended for the Gentile believer:
The statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. Deuteronomy 5:1-3 The Fathers were Jews?

We don't despise the Law it just that it has become enriched in our Spirit and no need to execute it for pointers.

 

[John the Baptist]

Two Laws/Moses Law & The Godheads Universal Etrnal/Coven

John here:

First comes, that we are [required to be Born Again]. John 3:3 Now, we are all Under Grace, Saving Grace! [They are New Creatures..Reborn], but can we still sin?? Under Grace?? If we are under Grace from here on, why do we now still need our Hebrews 9:11-14's High Priest? And of course we do! But wHY??? Because there is the ETERNAL COVENANT LAW! Angels sinned in heaven! Hebrews 13:20 And the Godhead call's this law the 'Epistle' of Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:3 That means His documented moral 'testimony'. Isaiah 8:20 and Revelation 12:17. Again, Covenant of God & 'testimony of Jesus Christ'./u]

".. Christ being come an High Priest of good things [to come], by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building, Neither by the blood of goats and caves, but by His own blood he entered in once into the [Holy Place], having obtained eternal redemption for us. ... (on the other side of the rent veil--notice!) purge your conscience from dead works to serve a living God?"

The Most Holy place is on the other side of the Veil that rent twain at Christ's death, and is where the Ark of God is still at. The Ark containing the Eternal Covenant, (Revelation 11:19) with the Eternal Mercy Seat & with the Eternal Covenant [INSIDE!] Hebrews 13:20.

So now when one is then Born Again, they are under Grace! Romans 8:1 That makes the 'conscience' at peace with the mind. What is Christ now doing in verse 7? "But into the [second went the High Priest (earthly) alone once every year] ... The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the Holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing. Which was a [figure of the true] ... [Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.]"

These laws were all added because of sin, UNTIL CHRIST came and DIED, and put them to and end! In other words they were no longer needed now, were they? These were FINISHED! OK?? Galatians 3:19
Did you get all of this? These laws [all prefigured Christ's 'Confirmation'], His death on the cross and our ever living High Priest. Still Grace! These all died in the faith! Hebrews 11:13 No more Law?? And does it say that the law of God was voided out here? Or the above law that Moses wrote that prefigured the true?

The Laws that Moses penned which stood in 'washings', 'carnal ordinances' until the Galatians 3:19 'Promise' was confirmed! "Wherefore then serveth this law? It was added because of transgressions, [till the seed should come to whom the promise was made]..." Remember that this law was added, and the angels that fell in heaven were found LAW BREAKERS! (see 1 John 3:4)
And some are saying that this is the Eternal Covenant & Eternal Gospel of Hebrews 13:20 and that it is no longer the Royal law (see James 2:8-12 & 1 John 2:4 & Revelation 12:17) of the Universe!? These ones had best read the last few verses of the Book, Revelation 22:18-19 along with Ecclesiastes 3:14, for they have just broken the law of God!

Well now, Christ came, and we are under conditional (Covenanted) Grace. This other law was added because of sin. Yet, there would be no sin in heaven, (satan) or Adam on earth without the [Eternal Covenant] still being binding & in force! (again Hebrews 13:20) "Whosoever committeth sin trangresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4

So, it is not hard for any [Born Again Christian] to see that this ten Commandment Eternal Covenant is not these laws to the left of the cross of Christ, ['carnal ordinances,] imposed upon them [until the reformation'], or the time that Christ became our High Priest.
These laws were all the Laws of Moses that he penned. Deuteronomy 31:9, Deuteronomy 31:24-25. that were placed in [the side] of the Ark of God, and not inside of the Ark where the Ten Commandments that He wrote, were (and are!) kept.
And, do you realize that this is the only portion given to us by God that [He personally wrote?] See what He Tel's us about this in Isaiah 8:20?! This is the Godhead's documented way for us to test any professed Truth by, to see if it needs dumped, or kept!

The Ark of God:
Christ's death sent Him where, as our High Priest! The Vail of the earthly Temple was rent from top to bottom by an unseen hand, making the way into the [Most Holy Place] where the Ark of the Eternal Covenant of God is at, at the Present time! Notice Hebrews 9:3 "And after the second Vail, which is called the [Holiest of all], which had ... the Ark of the Covenant ... and the tables of the Covenant" (REMEMBER! Moses laws were in the [side] of the Ark, not inside.

Yet, take note of this verse in Revelation 11:18-19)
".. and the time of the dead, that should be judged, and should have reward, ... ***And the Temple of God was *IN HEAVEN and there was SEEN THE ARK OF HIS TESTAMENT." Compare this with Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 for the [ONLY] question asked in this Judgement for these ['Born Again ones']!!! FOR THESE SAVED PREJUDGED ONES!! 1 Peter 4:17.

Under Grace? Are you still in need of Christ our High Priest? Why? Do you sin?? We see that it is not possible to sin without a law! 1 John 3:4
So, if one sins & is under Grace, then there is still an Eternal Covenant Law (ten Commandments) and there is still Grace if one asks for forgiveness of your sin, right??

Now, when I sin, am I still under Grace without asking for forgiveness?
If I say yes, am I telling the Truth that I am under Grace while not asking for forgiveness, or have I just knowingly broken the Commandment of lying? Still under Grace you say?? If so, why have a High Priest Savior in the first place to ask forgiveness of 'our sins'? (again, no law, no sin)

One best read and study David's understanding in Psalms 19:7-14, but ZERO in on verse 19 from the K.J.! David knew just how close that he might have came to making shipwreck of eternal life by 'PRESUMPTUOUSLY Sinning! (The Great Transgression of Sinning against the Holy Ghost.

OK: Sin of ignorance & sin of open knowledge. All transgression of the Eternal Covenant law is still sin! The Covenant in heaven is what Christ's work is pertaining to, for us. When we sin, we are right back condemned under the Eternal Covenant of God. We then ask for forgiveness of our sins. And then we are again forgiven. But notice that we Born Again ones, are now said to be 'Led' by the Holy Ghost in Romans 8:14. Now, what are we being led to do?

The Royal Eternal Covenant of the Godhead is perfect, converting the soul! It has no sin, it is the very 'Epistle' or Christ! 2 Corinthians 3:3 (perfect-flawless) The Holy Spirit leads us into all Truth, that is the Covenant of God. See Christ's work of Isaiah 42:21.

For any to be [led otherwise]?? [/b][Is to KNOWINGLY revolt!] It Grieves & it Quenches the One leading us! In time He will quite His 'Striving' with us! See Acts 9:5, with Saul being told by Christ.. 'it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks' [and Genesis 6:3]. There can come a time that we just will not be led, and God quits striving with us. See Revelation 3:16-17.

Now, back in the Holy place of Grace, while we are in obedience, we see in Hebrews 10:23 that it is not yet a done deal of once under Grace always under Grace. "Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering.." And Hebrews 10:26-29 "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the Truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin, But a certain fearful looking for of the judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." So, the Eternal Covenant can find us again, in 'willful' dangerous 'presumptuous' sin!

Under Grace you still say? When one knows that they are 'openly sinning "Willfully" (SUCH AS KNOWN FALSE DOCTRINES!!) the verse says? To say that I am under Grace while "willfully" sinning is bringing me right back into Bondage of the breaking of the Eternal Covenant Law of God! Willfully and openly! We ARE THEN IN TIME the ones of Hebrews 6:6. Yet, take notice that these ones '[had been made partakers of the Holy Ghost]' Hebrews 6:1-5

Not only doing the lawbreaking, but with even being an PARTAKER of any sin. Revelation 18:4. Any known breaking of the Covenant of God, such as God's 7th day Sabbath, is included! James 2:8-12. And it states that this Royal Law will be [our standard in Judgement] to see if our profession matches our character. The last verses of Ecclesiastes 12:13-14.

In closing:
Born Again? Under Grace. Perfect at this point! Romans 8:1. The Positives of Hebrews 6:1-5! Then can come 'willful' dis/obedience, openly. What are we then [knowingly] doing?? All of us that are Born Again know for sure what we are doing when the Holy Spirit leads us, [and we go against His Leading!] Remember forum, that these ones have the Covenant written in their 'heart & minds'! See Hebrews 10:16.

Well then, under Grace can change to being under Bondage when 'willfully done'. Notice what these ex/under Grace ones have now knowingly done? Hebrews 6:6 says: "... [seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh], and put Him to an [open] shame."

Lord, I love you, but I do not love your Eternal Covenant Epistle? I love you, but not these folks that you have created?? Under Grace still? Hardly for long! (seven times) See Abadiah 1:16 for [all of these lost ones seen above]. And James 1:15