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elijah23
Guest
I have trouble believing Paul was correct when he told women not to speak in church and that wives should submit to the wills of their husbands. What do you think?
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elijah23,elijah23 said:
The Spirit of our Lord Jesus testified through Paul thusly:
1 Cor 13:9-12
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. KJV
Joe
elijah23 said:
Was Paul always correct? No
Does that mean we can ignore scripture? No
The thing about that scripture is that you also have to look at the audience. If the Philippians was Paul's letter of joy, Corinthians was the exact opposite. They were in such disorder that Paul had to speak very sternly with them.
Just my $.02
handy
Member
I think Paul was very correct to exhort wives to submit to their husbands. When a godly woman submits to her husband, which isn't something Paul made up because he hated women, but is due to the order of creation, then both the husband and wife grow stronger in their marriage and in the Lord.
Think about this: God gave the commandment to Adam to not eat of the fruit. Adam told his wife. She didn't submit. Things have gone downhill since.
As for the women not to speak in church, I believe that there was a specific issue that Paul was dealing with. For, Paul also instructed women to cover their heads when praying or prophesying. Since prophesy is a gift given for the edification of the church (1 Cor 14:4) and since women were given the gift of prophesy, then it doesn't make sense that the woman so gifted cannot even speak in church. I believe that 1 Corinthians 14:35 holds the answer to why Paul told the Corinthians to let the women "keep silent". He says in vs35, "if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home." The whole section of Corinthians is dealing with the fact that the Corinthian church was disorderly, chaotic and communion was being shared in an unworthy manner. Because of this, the church was getting weak, some were sick and some even died. (1 Cor 11:30)
The word that is translated "keep silent" doesn't mean "sit-there-with-duct-tape-over-your-mouth-and-don't-make-a-sound". It's means to "keep one's peace". In other words, although one might have a thought or an idea about something, hold the thought or idea. It's the same word used when Paul said for someone who was given a message in tongues, and yet no interpreter was present. (1 Cor 14:28). That one was to keep silent as well. Again, this doesn't mean that he couldn't participate in church and talk, just that he was to hold that particular thought as there was no interpreter for it. As Paul followed his instruction for the women to keep silent by telling them to ask their husbands at home, most likely women were disrupting the service asking all kinds of questions about things and Paul was telling them that church wasn't the time or place for that, but rather to discuss it with their husbands at home. Speaking in a normal manner, prophesying, praying, singing, all the rest, women can and should participate in.
Think about this: God gave the commandment to Adam to not eat of the fruit. Adam told his wife. She didn't submit. Things have gone downhill since.
As for the women not to speak in church, I believe that there was a specific issue that Paul was dealing with. For, Paul also instructed women to cover their heads when praying or prophesying. Since prophesy is a gift given for the edification of the church (1 Cor 14:4) and since women were given the gift of prophesy, then it doesn't make sense that the woman so gifted cannot even speak in church. I believe that 1 Corinthians 14:35 holds the answer to why Paul told the Corinthians to let the women "keep silent". He says in vs35, "if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home." The whole section of Corinthians is dealing with the fact that the Corinthian church was disorderly, chaotic and communion was being shared in an unworthy manner. Because of this, the church was getting weak, some were sick and some even died. (1 Cor 11:30)
The word that is translated "keep silent" doesn't mean "sit-there-with-duct-tape-over-your-mouth-and-don't-make-a-sound". It's means to "keep one's peace". In other words, although one might have a thought or an idea about something, hold the thought or idea. It's the same word used when Paul said for someone who was given a message in tongues, and yet no interpreter was present. (1 Cor 14:28). That one was to keep silent as well. Again, this doesn't mean that he couldn't participate in church and talk, just that he was to hold that particular thought as there was no interpreter for it. As Paul followed his instruction for the women to keep silent by telling them to ask their husbands at home, most likely women were disrupting the service asking all kinds of questions about things and Paul was telling them that church wasn't the time or place for that, but rather to discuss it with their husbands at home. Speaking in a normal manner, prophesying, praying, singing, all the rest, women can and should participate in.
H,-HUMBLED- said:
Jesus' apostolic spirit guided Paul, the apostle born out of time. Jesus speaks to us, by his Spirit, through the ministry of Paul, in an apostolic authority, the ministration of reconciliation.
Consider Phinehas' javelin through the children of certain leaders of both Jew and Midianite in the event of Baal-Peor. The Corinthians were in a similar error of open sexual immorality with boasting.
Paul did warn the Philippians (his joy and crown/chp. 4:3) concerning those who make their belly their god, who glory in their shame, who mind earthly things(chp. 3:18,19), that they are enemies of the cross of Christ.
Joe
Aero_Hudson
Member
I agree with what some folks have already posted. One must understand the context of who Paul is writing to and what he is writing about when reading his books in the NT. I don't think that Paul is saying that women are subserviant to men.
S
Solo
Guest
All that we have of Paul's writings are correct as his writings are inspired of the Holy Spirit, and are revealed as being Scripture by Peter. Peter tells us that Paul's writings are difficult for unlearned and unstable to understand as with the other scriptures they wrestle which leads to their own destruction.
Read the book Captivating: Unveiling the Mystery of a Woman's Soul by John and Stasi Eldredge for a stupendous understanding of women and their purpose.
Captivating: Unveiling the Mystery of a Woman's Soul
ALSO
Read the book Wild at Heart: Discovering the Secret of a Man's Soul by John Eldredge for a stupendous understanding of men and their purpose.
Wild at Heart: Discovering the Secret of a Man's Soul
King James Version said:
Read the book Captivating: Unveiling the Mystery of a Woman's Soul by John and Stasi Eldredge for a stupendous understanding of women and their purpose.
Captivating: Unveiling the Mystery of a Woman's Soul
ALSO
Read the book Wild at Heart: Discovering the Secret of a Man's Soul by John Eldredge for a stupendous understanding of men and their purpose.
Wild at Heart: Discovering the Secret of a Man's Soul
Great post. It's important to remember that Paul did not write of his own will or authority. Everything Paul said that is canonized Scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit, so if you say that Paul was wrong then you're, in effect, saying that the Holy Spirit was wrong :o I don't know about you, but I'm not going there!handy said:
researcher
Member
elijah23 said:
Not everything Paul wrote was from God, i.e. the Holy Spirit.
1Co 7:25 Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1Co 7:6 But I say this as a concession, not as a command.
2Co 8:8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
2Co 11:17 That which I speak, I speak not according to the Lord, but as in foolishness, in this the confidence of boasting;
I believe he usually let his audience know when it was him speaking and not the Lord though.
GodspromisesRyes
Member
elijah23 said:
are you a woman? i am curious if you are not that you have issues with this lol. anyways yes i believe that paul was always right and was speaking the word of the Lord always in everything written in the bible.
what problems exactly do you have with this? There is a proper order in Gods kingdom and things always work by that order and purpose. In truth there is no reason to have a problem with these two issues, unless the truth is a person has issues with authority in general. Is a servant to obey their master? is an employee to obey their boss? is a man to obey the Lord? Is Jesus to obey the Father? are we to obey governments? are children to obey their parents?
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elijah23
Guest
Jesus told to be just (Matthew 23:23). Is it just to bar women from speaking in church?toddm said:
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elijah23
Guest
No, I am not a woman, but I believe in justice.GodspromisesRyes said:
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elijah23
Guest
Justice is justice. Jesus told us to be just (Matthew 23:23).Menno said:
S
Solo
Guest
Man is created in God's image, male and female; and as each of these is different physiologically, so too are they different spiritually. Each of us has gifts given to us by the Holy Spirit, and each of us has a role to fulfill in this world as ambassadors of Christ Jesus. Jesus Christ is the head of man, and man is the head of woman, and both submit to each other as they serve Christ Jesus. As man serves Christ Jesus, he is to love his wife as Christ loved the church; and wives are to respect their husbands as the church is to respect Christ Jesus. Children are to submit to their parents, and employees are to submit to their employers. Each of us has a role to fulfill in this world according to the Word of God. No role is to be filled ashamedly as God has ordered all things and holds all things together by His love.elijah23 said:
elijah23 said:
You are correct, justice is justice - however, how are you defining justice?
Again, Justice does not always mean equal. Society and our world, wants to make justice about equality - the ole "eye for an eye".... Showing compassion is justice, but not necessarily equality.
I cannot give birth, does that mean God has been unjust?
GodspromisesRyes
Member
ok you believe in justice. Justice is rightousness. Often associated with government in some form OR God. To BE just is to be righteous which we are told the just shall live by faith. This applies to all believers and WE in christ Jesus are kings.
Is it just for a woman to not speak in church? YES because it is righteous. To be in order is righteous. Is it justice if you go to court and you get to yell out and speak what you please when it is time for those ordained-the judge and laywers are to be speaking? Would that be justice?
Now we are told that a woman can prophesy in church. She can sing pslams and songs etc... she can prob testify. But she has no office or postion to speak or teach over the church. That is out of order. God set in place firstly God- then Jesus- then Man- then woman.
Is it acceptable for my child to not speak when i tell him not to? of course it is. Likewise it is acceptable for the woman to not speak when it is not her term or the proper place for her.
Do you accept that women must be in subjection to their own husbands?
Is it just for a woman to not speak in church? YES because it is righteous. To be in order is righteous. Is it justice if you go to court and you get to yell out and speak what you please when it is time for those ordained-the judge and laywers are to be speaking? Would that be justice?
Now we are told that a woman can prophesy in church. She can sing pslams and songs etc... she can prob testify. But she has no office or postion to speak or teach over the church. That is out of order. God set in place firstly God- then Jesus- then Man- then woman.
Is it acceptable for my child to not speak when i tell him not to? of course it is. Likewise it is acceptable for the woman to not speak when it is not her term or the proper place for her.
Do you accept that women must be in subjection to their own husbands?