Was Paul always correct?

[elijah23]

Do you accept that women must be in subjection to their own husbands?

No.

 

[Rick W]

I think there needs be a clarification of this word "subjection" as set forth by scripture.
I don't have much time, I need to get ready for work, but I'm sure someone can help out.

 

[elijah23]

I do think Elijah, that perhaps your struggle is born more out of not understanding what is meant by wives submitting to their husbands or that women are to be silent, (which again, isn't that they weren't ever to speak but rather to hold their peace about things so that they could discuss them with their husbands.) God isn't being unjust to women

I can speak from personal testimony that when women ignore these things, they ignore them at a cost. When we follow God's commands, it always turns out better. By a long shot.

You believe that Paul always spoke the truth, and you are entitled to your opinion. It is my opinion that occasionally Paul was probably mistaken in the things that he said.

 

[seekandlisten]

Do you accept that women must be in subjection to their own husbands?

Or could the question be rephrased as do you accept the husband should be in subjection to his wife?

People will make this teaching suite their interests plain and simple. Jesus taught us to be the 'servant of all.' The bible gives us numerous examples of this with Jesus being submissive to the Father, the 'church' being submissive to Christ, women being submissive to their husbands, etc. If a man is truly following what Jesus taught they will be the 'servant of all'/submissive to their wife, in the same way the wife, who is also following Christ's example, will be submissive to her husband. What happens when two people are submissive towards each other? They become one.

The mindset in 'secular' and 'christian' history, if you feel the need to separate the two, is that women are less of a creature then man. Where we came to this conclusion I don't know but I don't buy it. Jesus taught us that we are to get to a point where there is no difference between man and woman, white and black, heterosexuals and homosexuals, Christian and Muslim, etc. When one figures out what that means it'll all make sense and their is no dilemma.

 

[elijah23]

When God said stone a woman to death for adultry was God wrong?

"when that which is perfect has come", means the finished word of God the finished 66 books, after that no more prophecy will come, or is required. So everyhing that Paul says in the inpsired word of God, is God speaking through Him, so no, Paul was never wrong.

Does that mean you have to agree with Him? No. But you are disagreeing with God, not Paul.

Why do you believe that disagreeing with Paul is the same as disagreeing with God?

 

[elijah23]

We will either believe that Paul's writings are just Paul's writings (If you believe that, then please start searching for the true Word of God)
Or we can believe that the Word of God is the Word of God. Not written "in part" but every word in its correct place and every word meant by God Himself.

If not, then we truly are a sad lot. Then we have nothing we can truly rely upon as accurate. We cannot speak of the Bible then as the Word of God. We must then admit that we do not believe it to be as such, and that it is indeed just a collection of ideas that religious men wrote down.

I must admit that I am rather shocked. I did not realize how many Christians do not really believe that every word of the Bible is indeed the very words of God. :o

I disagree. Read the following Scripture from Psalms:

Happy shall he be who takes your little ones
and dashes them against the rock! Psalms 137:9 RSV

I think we would be a sorry lot if we went over to Afghanistan and started throwing children against the rocks.

 

[D4Christ]

Maybe the problem is that when men quote Ephesians to prove the point that women should be obedient, their command to be loving and caring provider is overlooked in the conversation. Paul’s statement is not just about how women should act. I guess the problem is that in today’s society, some men want all the perks of an obedient wife but they rarely do their own part very well, leaving women dissatisfied and resistant to the word “obey.†Regardless…the scripture clearly states in verse 21 that we ALL need to submit to one another. What Paul details is the differences in how married couples express this submission to each other.

Ephesians 5

21 And further, submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 For wives, this means submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church. He is the Savior of his body, the church. 24 As the church submits to Christ, so you wives should submit to your husbands in everything.

25 For husbands, this means love your wives, just as Christ loved the church. He gave up his life for her 26 to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word. 27 He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault. 28 In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man who loves his wife actually shows love for himself. 29 No one hates his own body but feeds and cares for it, just as Christ cares for the church. 30 And we are members of his body.
31 As the Scriptures say, “A man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.†32 This is a great mystery, but it is an illustration of the way Christ and the church are one. 33 So again I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

We all get the obedient part. Maybe its time to have a discussion on what it means for men to love their wives as Christ loved the Church…much more difficult imho. Perhaps someone can get this started by doing some research on how the scriptures feel about those who give their lives for others and the commitment that takes.

2cents,
Deirdre

 

[Sound Silence]

"Sound Silence

So women shouldn't be able to vote because it was all a conspiracy by men to make money. Right.

Did I say that?

You implied it. I don't know why else you'd bring that up.

Depends on whether Im talking to a whack job or not, there are certainly a few here?

a little more silence would be nice, I like that sound.

I am being silent, if you haven't noticed, this is a text-based discussion.
But a valiant effort, nonetheless.

Have we become so politically correct that wives shouldn't submit to their husbands anymore? The commandment is very plain in Ephesians 5:22-24,

I bet you think we should marry rapists to their victims. That's pretty clear elsewhere in the Bible as well.

Here's some food for thought: When two couples disagree over something(which always happens), who should be right?

The person whose idea has the most merit, like always. Not because they're of a certain gender.

Some ask why the man should take precedence in a decision or argument. An apropriate counter question might be, 'Why the woman?' Women tend to be emotional, romantic, and zealous, especially toward their children. If your neighbor's dog bites your child, do you want your wife screaming about the child's safety and ranting about how the dog should have been on a leash, or would you rather settle the dispute yourself so that you don't lose a good neighbor or get involved in a lawsuit?

That is completely ridiculous, and completely untrue. There are men who are just as irrational, emotional, and romantic as the stereotypical woman, and there are women who are more clear-headed than any man.
If you had any ability at perception, or knew anything about people, you would realize that.
If you think all women would scream and rant and all men don't, you need a serious reality check.

It would be even worse if your dog bit another man's child, in which case there would definitely be a lawsuit if two emotional mothers go at it. Again, one would be ranting about the dog, and the other about how the child never should have stuck his hand in the fence. In such a situation, the men of each households should settle the manner calmly, collectedly, and with the least damage done to each other's lives.

I know plenty of men who would be much quicker to get in a shouting match over it. Your argument fails

I never meant to imply that woman are incapable of making rational decisions.

Yet you totally did imply it. You shouldn't have used such generalized statements.

Having a wife that submits is an awesome and humbling responsibility. People need to quit reading the Bible through the slant of political correctness.

And you need to quit demonizing the issue by calling it "political correctness". And to quit looking at the world through your chauvinistic bias.

Political correctness is when proper ideals are taken to ridiculous extremes, for instance, being overly insecure about race issues, to the extent that they give minorities extra privileges to compensate.
But you still wouldn't say that people of all races should be treated equally, just because some people are "politically correct" about it.

You believe that Paul always spoke the truth, and you are entitled to your opinion. It is my opinion that occasionally Paul was probably mistaken in the things that he said.

I think Paul's ideas were inspired by God and were proper for the times. They lived in a world where women were second-class citizens, and had no respect. Therefore, it was better for them to be silent, because the world wasn't ready for women to be able to speak their minds, even in the radical environment of the church.
This is similar to why he advocated slaves to cheerfully obey their earthly masters. It wasn't going away, so they should just accept it. However, in later times slavery was properly recognized as immoral, and the right thing to do then was to free the slaves (like in America).

Nowadays, we recognize that women are people too, and therefore it is time to overcome this antiquated school of thought.

Why do you believe that disagreeing with Paul is the same as disagreeing with God?

It's because Paul's words are in the Bible, which is what God wanted to be written there.
That's why you have to look at the bigger picture when dealing with issues like this.

I disagree. Read the following Scripture from Psalms:

Happy shall he be who takes your little ones
and dashes them against the rock! Psalms 137:9 RSV

I think we would be a sorry lot if we went over to Afghanistan and started throwing children against the rocks.

That sounds very out of context, and not like a recommendation to throw children against rocks at all.
From the phrasing, it sounds like it's referring to their enemies taking joy in destroying *them*, not the other way around.

 

[Cornelius]

We will either believe that Paul's writings are just Paul's writings (If you believe that, then please start searching for the true Word of God)
Or we can believe that the Word of God is the Word of God. Not written "in part" but every word in its correct place and every word meant by God Himself.

If not, then we truly are a sad lot. Then we have nothing we can truly rely upon as accurate. We cannot speak of the Bible then as the Word of God. We must then admit that we do not believe it to be as such, and that it is indeed just a collection of ideas that religious men wrote down.

I must admit that I am rather shocked. I did not realize how many Christians do not really believe that every word of the Bible is indeed the very words of God. :o

I disagree. Read the following Scripture from Psalms:

Happy shall he be who takes your little ones
and dashes them against the rock! Psalms 137:9 RSV

I think we would be a sorry lot if we went over to Afghanistan and started throwing children against the rocks.

You may disagree all you like. You do not have the Word of God , because you do not know what it is.

 

[Solo]

I do think Elijah, that perhaps your struggle is born more out of not understanding what is meant by wives submitting to their husbands or that women are to be silent, (which again, isn't that they weren't ever to speak but rather to hold their peace about things so that they could discuss them with their husbands.) God isn't being unjust to women

I can speak from personal testimony that when women ignore these things, they ignore them at a cost. When we follow God's commands, it always turns out better. By a long shot.

You believe that Paul always spoke the truth, and you are entitled to your opinion. It is my opinion that occasionally Paul was probably mistaken in the things that he said.

What part of the Scriptures are not God inspired, and who determines that? You or God?

 

[Menno]

I disagree. Read the following Scripture from Psalms:

Happy shall he be who takes your little ones
and dashes them against the rock! Psalms 137:9 RSV

I think we would be a sorry lot if we went over to Afghanistan and started throwing children against the rocks.

Nor is the Psalmist suggesting that we do such a thing, nor is God saying that we should.

Rather, the Psalmist is crying out in anger because of the captivity.

This is being intellectually dishonest with the Scriptures to pluck out a verse here or there and attempt to use it without understanding the context and the type of speech (in this case poetry, and a psalm of lament - if I remember correctly).

 

[elijah23]

What part of the Scriptures are not God inspired, and who determines that? You or God?

I don't have an answer for the first question. You seem to be looking for a simple answer. I don't think it is simple, and I think we spend our entire lives trying to figure out exactly what the Lord wants of us.

As for your second question, the answer would be God.

 

[prough91]

And you need to quit demonizing the issue by calling it "political correctness". And to quit looking at the world through your chauvinistic bias.

Political correctness is when proper ideals are taken to ridiculous extremes, for instance, being overly insecure about race issues, to the extent that they give minorities extra privileges to compensate.
But you still wouldn't say that people of all races should be treated equally, just because some people are "politically correct" about it.

Political correctness is people worrying so much about offending other people, regardless of race, creed or sex. If you don't like what the Bible has to say, why believe it?

 

[handy]

Maybe the problem is that when men quote Ephesians to prove the point that women should be obedient, their command to be loving and caring provider is overlooked in the conversation. Paul’s statement is not just about how women should act. I guess the problem is that in today’s society, some men want all the perks of an obedient wife but they rarely do their own part very well, leaving women dissatisfied and resistant to the word “obey.†Regardless…the scripture clearly states in verse 21 that we ALL need to submit to one another. What Paul details is the differences in how married couples express this submission to each other.

Ephesians 5

21 And further, submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 For wives, this means submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church. He is the Savior of his body, the church. 24 As the church submits to Christ, so you wives should submit to your husbands in everything.

25 For husbands, this means love your wives, just as Christ loved the church. He gave up his life for her 26 to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word. 27 He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault. 28 In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man who loves his wife actually shows love for himself. 29 No one hates his own body but feeds and cares for it, just as Christ cares for the church. 30 And we are members of his body.
31 As the Scriptures say, “A man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.†32 This is a great mystery, but it is an illustration of the way Christ and the church are one. 33 So again I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

We all get the obedient part. Maybe its time to have a discussion on what it means for men to love their wives as Christ loved the Church…much more difficult imho. Perhaps someone can get this started by doing some research on how the scriptures feel about those who give their lives for others and the commitment that takes.

2cents,
Deirdre

Deirdre, I think there is a world of difference between obedience and submission. I really think that the reason why so many, in this egalitarian society stumble over the issue of biblical roles of husband and wife is that too often the word "submit" is defined as "obey". The bible makes the distinction between obedience and submission and so should we. Children are to obey their parents, wives are to submit to their husbands.

The word for submit in Ephesians 5 is the same word used of Jesus in that he submitted to His earthly parents.

The issue here is the fact that wives are equal to their husbands. Children are not ordinarily equal to their parents, but Jesus was a special case (to say the least). So, rather than describing Him as being "obedient" to Joseph and Mary, He rather submitted to them, because it was the right thing to do. No one would say that Joseph and Mary were more important than Jesus, nor would I even say they were equal to Jesus. However, Jesus submitted to them. So ought wives submit to their husbands, not because the husband is more important than the wife or that the wife isn't equal to her husband, but because it is what God desires of us to do.

I would buy the idea that these instructions were just old fashioned instructions meant for the place and time that Paul wrote them, except that this flies in the face of the overwhelming biblical evidence that God desires wives to submit to their husbands. This goes all the way back to the garden of Eden, before sin even entered into the world.

And, as I mentioned before, it was because Eve did not submit to Adam that opened the door for sin to enter in.

 

[handy]

As for the question, What part of the Scriptures are not God inspired? I've found that the answer lies in those things that aren't all that popular to follow...

As of now we have a society that believes that is is purely hateful male chauvinism that says a woman cannot hold the office of preacher in a church....ergo, that part of the Bible isn't God inspired.

We have a society that says that gays are entitled to full and complete equal rights...ergo, that part of the Bible isn't God inspired.

We have a society that is more and more permissive....ergo, all those parts of the Bible that limit one's behavior, especially personal behavior, isn't God inspired.

Anyone see a trend here?

 

[Solo]

What part of the Scriptures are not God inspired, and who determines that? You or God?

I don't have an answer for the first question. You seem to be looking for a simple answer. I don't think it is simple, and I think we spend our entire lives trying to figure out exactly what the Lord wants of us.

As for your second question, the answer would be God.

The simple answer is that my God is able to pass His Word throughout History through men inspired by the Holy Spirit so that the truth is available from one generation to the next. Is your God able to do the same?

 

[elijah23]

You may disagree all you like. You do not have the Word of God , because you do not know what it is.

If you believe that, then you might consider this:

[24] And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing,
[25] correcting his opponents with gentleness. 2 Tim 2:24-25 RSV

 

[Cornelius]

You may disagree all you like. You do not have the Word of God , because you do not know what it is.

If you believe that, then you might consider this:

[24] And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing,
[25] correcting his opponents with gentleness. 2 Tim 2:24-25 RSV

You are spreading destruction regarding the Word of God.


Jesus and Paul was not kind in all situations .

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who did bewitch you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth crucified?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn from you. Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh?

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

When you touch the Word of God like you are doing, you are touching the very rock on which Christians stand.Plus, to leave you , would not be love, because you are not standing on or in the truth.If I hated you, I would just leave you where you are.

 

[Cornelius]

As for the question, What part of the Scriptures are not God inspired? I've found that the answer lies in those things that aren't all that popular to follow...

As of now we have a society that believes that is is purely hateful male chauvinism that says a woman cannot hold the office of preacher in a church....ergo, that part of the Bible isn't God inspired.

We have a society that says that gays are entitled to full and complete equal rights...ergo, that part of the Bible isn't God inspired.

We have a society that is more and more permissive....ergo, all those parts of the Bible that limit one's behavior, especially personal behavior, isn't God inspired.

Anyone see a trend here?

You are correct. Whatever does not suit us, cannot possibly be correct. God must learn to submit to our modern views and "get with the times".

 

[Sound Silence]

Political correctness is people worrying so much about offending other people, regardless of race, creed or sex. If you don't like what the Bible has to say, why believe it?

This isn't about "offending" people, though. It's about oppressing them.

And it's not the Bible I dislike. It's the fact that people think because a letter was written to a church at one point and applied to their situation, that it automatically counts forever and ever for everybody else.

You are correct. Whatever does not suit us, cannot possibly be correct. God must learn to submit to our modern views and "get with the times".

This isn't about God "getting with the times". The times just need to get up with God.
Back then he made a lot of rules because the people needed theme. But many of those are no longer followed, or even argued over.

This is an issue that has nothing to do with morality at all. It is a way to lower one set of people beneath another arbitrarily. But you wouldn't understand that. You just see it as someone trying to cherrypick the Bible, when it is nothing of the sort.