Was Paul always correct?

[Panin]

A wife is only asked to submit to a husband who is submitted to God.

Where does the Bible say this?

Col 3:19 Husbands, love [your] wives, and be not bitter against them.

Is loving your wife leading her into sin?

Jam 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

All men are to submit themselves to God

Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing

All men in the church that is. IE in the faith

Hbr 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.

In fact a man is to submit to his pastor elders and deacons aswell.


1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

1Pe 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

1Pe 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

It would appear in Peter that wifes are to submit to their husbands even if the husband obeys not the word, (ie is sinning) in order that they may convict the husband to return to obedience. It doesnt say the wife should also sin though.

Let's keep it real, does this mean if a husbands asks his wife to openly sin that this would be God's will? Umm, no. Unless of course you can show in the bible where it says this.

To me submit basically means, dont make the lives of those who have the responsibilty to love and care for you and to provide for you, more difficult than life already is.

Wives submitting to their husbands biblically speaking is no more than that in my opinion. Some one has to lead. Sadly in todays society many women are having to lead because their husbands are no hopers. That said, I do not make any major decisions where my family is concerned without discussing it with my wife first, and many many times I take my wifes councel over what I initially thought was a good idea.

Happy wife, happy life folks. (you wont find that in the bible though)

 

[Panin]

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

I can't find any where in the bible where it instructs women to Love their her husbands. (boo hoo, is God a misandrist now?)

I think this is because men need to feel the respect of their wives in order to experience the love of a wife. Submission may have something to do with respect.

 

[sheepdog]

A lot of interesting opinions here. I won’t take the time to reference other posters but I think it would be helpful if some things were defined.
What is submission? It is a voluntary giving in for the common good. It does not mean second class or being less than anyone else. In the family the benefit is easily seen. The husband submits to God and loves his wife and children as Christ loves the church. This includes giving up many personal desires for the sake of his family. It often means protecting, nurturing, loving and leading no matter what the cost to him. The wife submits to the husband and allows him to lead without competing. Should she have an opinion? Yes, there is safety in the council of many. Families that function in this loving environment reap enormous benefits. In simple form a man’s great need is to be respected and admired. I know food and sex is also at the top. Women on the other hand have a need to be safe and secure. Probably because of their God given task of being the mother. All don’t fit this mold but most do. God’s structure for the family fills these needs perfectly.
When we take this to the church environment it would be unthinkable to throw all of the family order out of the window. As a test of Paul’s words, God gives qualifications for various positions in the church. All of those mentioned such as pastors, elders and deacons have a common denominator. That is to have an orderly family. I think Paul was speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit here and we should pay attention. Gender based roles are offensive to some but apparently that is God’s way structuring our lives. I would feel very uncomfortable teaching God got it wrong……. Just one man’s opinion

 

[prough91]

A lot of interesting opinions here. I won’t take the time to reference other posters but I think it would be helpful if some things were defined.
What is submission? It is a voluntary giving in for the common good. It does not mean second class or being less than anyone else. In the family the benefit is easily seen. The husband submits to God and loves his wife and children as Christ loves the church. This includes giving up many personal desires for the sake of his family. It often means protecting, nurturing, loving and leading no matter what the cost to him. The wife submits to the husband and allows him to lead without competing. Should she have an opinion? Yes, there is safety in the council of many. Families that function in this loving environment reap enormous benefits. In simple form a man’s great need is to be respected and admired. I know food and sex is also at the top. Women on the other hand have a need to be safe and secure. Probably because of their God given task of being the mother. All don’t fit this mold but most do. God’s structure for the family fills these needs perfectly.
When we take this to the church environment it would be unthinkable to throw all of the family order out of the window. As a test of Paul’s words, God gives qualifications for various positions in the church. All of those mentioned such as pastors, elders and deacons have a common denominator. That is to have an orderly family. I think Paul was speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit here and we should pay attention. Gender based roles are offensive to some but apparently that is God’s way structuring our lives. I would feel very uncomfortable teaching God got it wrong……. Just one man’s opinion

Wow. Awesome post. Now prepare for the onslaught. Some people do not like reason.

 

[Panin]

A lot of interesting opinions here. I won’t take the time to reference other posters but I think it would be helpful if some things were defined.
What is submission? It is a voluntary giving in for the common good. It does not mean second class or being less than anyone else. In the family the benefit is easily seen. The husband submits to God and loves his wife and children as Christ loves the church. This includes giving up many personal desires for the sake of his family. It often means protecting, nurturing, loving and leading no matter what the cost to him. The wife submits to the husband and allows him to lead without competing. Should she have an opinion? Yes, there is safety in the council of many. Families that function in this loving environment reap enormous benefits. In simple form a man’s great need is to be respected and admired. I know food and sex is also at the top. Women on the other hand have a need to be safe and secure. Probably because of their God given task of being the mother. All don’t fit this mold but most do. God’s structure for the family fills these needs perfectly.
When we take this to the church environment it would be unthinkable to throw all of the family order out of the window. As a test of Paul’s words, God gives qualifications for various positions in the church. All of those mentioned such as pastors, elders and deacons have a common denominator. That is to have an orderly family. I think Paul was speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit here and we should pay attention. Gender based roles are offensive to some but apparently that is God’s way structuring our lives. I would feel very uncomfortable teaching God got it wrong……. Just one man’s opinion

Wow. Awesome post. Now prepare for the onslaught. Some people do not like reason.

Yes it is an awesome post, but it is guaranteed that Paul was speaking under the inspiration of the Holy spirit. That fact isn't open to conjecture or opinion. The premise of this thread from the OP is groundless for starters. IE questioning if Paul is right or wrong in the first place.

However the opinion on the meaning of submission is great.

 

[handy]

If Scripture is always correct, a wife must obey her husband, even if he asks to her sin, as I understand it. In a case like this, I don’t think a wife should obey Scripture.
..........
Paul says, I believe, that a wife is required to obey her husband. I raise the question, what then is a woman to do if her husband asks her to sin? Scripture apparently requires her to obey. I argue that Scripture is wrong—she should not obey. I’m sure this happens freqeuently.

Elijah, forgive me if I sound harsh here, but in your posts above you state, "Paul says, I believe" and "Scripture apparently requires". So, instead of arguing that Scripture is wrong based on what you think Paul says and what you think Scripture apparently requires, learn what Paul actually did say and what Scripture actually does require.

Submission is not the same as obedience. Paul NEVER once says that a wife is to OBEY her husband.
And, even in matters of obedience, the Bible tells us that we are to obey God and not man.

From the Blue Letter Bible on the word hypotass?:

This word was a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden".

This is different than hypakou?, which means to listen with the intent of obeying. The image is that of a porter at a door, whose very job is to listen for the knock at the door and to open it.

In submitting to my husband, I am voluntarily cooperating with him and his leading. When I tell my kids "Do this" all "volunteerism" goes out the door. They are to do what they're told. Unless I tell them to do something that goes against God's commandments. Then they are to follow God, not me.

If my hubby goes stark, raving crazy and orders me to rob a bank, then a: I don't have to obey that because I don't have to OBEY my husband anyway, I'm his wife, not his child and b: I will obey God's commandment not to steal before I submit to some cork-brained, illegal scheme of my hubby's.

Nor am I going to "voluntarily cooperate" with being raped, being ordered to rob a bank or do any of the other absurd, straw-man claims that are being made here.

But, as a wife, I have learned and learned well the lesson of submitting to my husband. I've learned that when I do, God truly works in and through our marriage, making it better for our marriage, our parenting of our kids and our home.

 

[handy]

A lot of interesting opinions here. I won’t take the time to reference other posters but I think it would be helpful if some things were defined.
What is submission? It is a voluntary giving in for the common good. It does not mean second class or being less than anyone else. In the family the benefit is easily seen. The husband submits to God and loves his wife and children as Christ loves the church. This includes giving up many personal desires for the sake of his family. It often means protecting, nurturing, loving and leading no matter what the cost to him. The wife submits to the husband and allows him to lead without competing. Should she have an opinion? Yes, there is safety in the council of many. Families that function in this loving environment reap enormous benefits. In simple form a man’s great need is to be respected and admired. I know food and sex is also at the top. Women on the other hand have a need to be safe and secure. Probably because of their God given task of being the mother. All don’t fit this mold but most do. God’s structure for the family fills these needs perfectly.
When we take this to the church environment it would be unthinkable to throw all of the family order out of the window. As a test of Paul’s words, God gives qualifications for various positions in the church. All of those mentioned such as pastors, elders and deacons have a common denominator. That is to have an orderly family. I think Paul was speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit here and we should pay attention. Gender based roles are offensive to some but apparently that is God’s way structuring our lives. I would feel very uncomfortable teaching God got it wrong……. Just one man’s opinion

Exactly! This is very much what it is like in our home. My husband is a great example of a man who puts his wife's and children's needs above his own. He always listens to my opinions and almost always we are in agreement before we move forward on something. During those times that I disagree with him, we do it his way, for better or for worse. And, here's something to consider, there was a time, in an important matter, that he did things my way, instead of what he felt was best,,,and that time was for the worse, not the better. I'm not always right anymore than he is and in this particular matter, I was wrong. It took us several years, and our growth in the Lord even suffered. Then the Lord showed me that I needed to submit to Steve, even in this area where I really thought I was RIGHT. I did so, and things are really different now. I've seen first hand where submitting when the chips are down leads to some wonderful blessings by God.

 

[Cornelius]

You should study the work of Ivan Panin if you really want to know if the Bible is the true Word of God.
If we think it is just about morality, we are not understanding the Bible. The Bible is so much more. It is the way to eternal life. It is the very words of Life.(Zoe) If we change of leave out, we loose out.

Please read these links prayerfully and allow the Lord to establish your feet on the Rock, so that you will be unmoved by anything that is not from Him.

http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.or ... umericskjv

http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.or ... whollyholy

Okay, you are obviously misunderstanding everything I said.
I seriously don't know what kind of jump you made to get from my comment, to your response.

And by the way, if I want to know more about the Bible, I will read the Bible, not some guy's thoughts on the Bible.

LOL please do not read the links I provided.

I will address this to other members then :


For those who might be interested in studying the mathematical proof that the Bible is indeed the Word of God, here are some links that will help. Panin, was a Russian atheist that found that the Bible has a mathematical pattern ( NOT the Bible Code !!) running through it. All Christians rejoice because of this , because not one person has ever been able to disprove the findings of Panin .

He proved that every single word in the Bible is linked mathematically to all other words in the Bible.

 

[Cornelius]

Exactly! This is very much what it is like in our home. My husband is a great example of a man who puts his wife's and children's needs above his own. He always listens to my opinions and almost always we are in agreement before we move forward on something. During those times that I disagree with him, we do it his way, for better or for worse. And, here's something to consider, there was a time, in an important matter, that he did things my way, instead of what he felt was best,,,and that time was for the worse, not the better. I'm not always right anymore than he is and in this particular matter, I was wrong. It took us several years, and our growth in the Lord even suffered. Then the Lord showed me that I needed to submit to Steve, even in this area where I really thought I was RIGHT. I did so, and things are really different now. I've seen first hand where submitting when the chips are down leads to some wonderful blessings by God.

Praise God I have seen how God honors submission. It is a most powerful tool in the hands of a Godly woman. God will move on her behalf if she submits even if she knows she is right. God is then free to deal with the husband if he is wrong. Through submission, a woman frees the power of God into their lives.

In a Christian marriage , submission is the picture that we show the world, of how the church submits (or not) to Christ. Just as a wife can rebel, so the church can rebel against the Word.

Paul calls it a mystery. Two becoming one flesh. This mystery is us joining God in one "Body of Christ". Jesus being the Groom of the Bride. They will be ONE.God in us. Christ in us the hope of glory:

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This mystery is great: but I speak in regard of Christ and of the church.

 

[elijah23]

[24] And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing,
[25] correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,
[26] and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. 2 Tim 2:24-26 RSV

I’ve been insulted several times on this topic. Is it not hypocritical for you to demand I obey all of Paul’s teachings, while you disobey these words of Paul, which tell us not to insult each other? If I remember correctly, Jesus complained quite a bit about hypocrites.

 

[Rick W]

I’ve been insulted several times on this topic. Is it not hypocritical for you to demand I obey all of Paul’s teachings, while you disobey these words of Paul, which tell us not to insult each other? If I remember correctly, Jesus complained quite a bit about hypocrites.

The staff cannot prevent derogatory posts being posted but we can address the insults and take action. There has been action taken in this thread against insults. We may not have gotten them all but we do what we can.

"Is it not hypocritical for you"
"Jesus complained quite a bit about hypocrites"

Can that not be taken as an insult?


Anyway, if you are insulted please use the report button "?" above each post to make us aware there may be a problem.

 

[elijah23]

Elijah, forgive me if I sound harsh here, but in your posts above you state, "Paul says, I believe" and "Scripture apparently requires". So, instead of arguing that Scripture is wrong based on what you think Paul says and what you think Scripture apparently requires, learn what Paul actually did say and what Scripture actually does require.

I’ve read the entire Bible three times and read out of it almost everyday. However, I haven’t memorized it.

 

[handy]

It's good to hear you read the bible.

Again, this might sound harsh, but it isn't meant to be. Try this: Try reading the bible completely sold out to the idea that each and every word is straight from God Himself. Then, when things pop up that don't seem to make sense, search it out.

As a woman growing up in the 70's, you can be sure that I struggled with the idea that I was to OBEY a man. Then, when I became a Christian and got tossed about a bit by bad doctrine, I purposed to really study the Scriptures for all they were worth. That is when I found that the Bible does not teach that a woman is to obey her husband, but to submit to him. And, in seeking out the difference between obedience and submission, I found peace and harmony in the Scriptures.

The problem with approaching God's word with the idea that it isn't inerrant and that maybe what Jesus said can be taken verbatim but what Paul says is suspect, is that it causes our sinful heart to start cherry picking texts. We tend to stick with what makes us feel good, and then those things that are a struggle, well the explanation must be that that particular text must not be from God.

It is exactly this way of viewing the Bible that put our former church in the position of OK'ing gays and lesbians for being ministers in the church. Which is why it's now our former church.

The point is, once you depart from the foundation that the Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit, then who knows where you'll end up. Keep with the idea that each and every word is there because God wants it to be there, and then you'll find that it all works together as a very coherent, and actually quite liberating whole.

 

[Cornelius]

With reading we also have to ask the Lord for wisdom and insight. If not, we will just read and read and not come to any real understanding .Jas 4:2............ye have not, because ye ask not. So let us always ASK God to open our eyes and ears. Let us ask Him for HIS view. Ask Him where we are believing something wrong. Ask Him to correct our view , so that we are in truth and not error. Ask Him to prevent us from going into error.

Keep on asking. Never stop, even when God starts answering. Keep on, like the writer of Psalm 119. Pray Psalm 119 back to God. He WILL answer. He loves it when we ask for truth above all else.