Was the Trinity included in Jesus’ gospel?

[John Zain]

This is NOT arguing against the Trinity … I believe in the Triune Godhead.

Jesus went around to all of the villages and towns preaching the gospel ... His gospel.
And later, Jesus commanded His disciples to preach His gospel to the ends of the earth.

Jesus’ gospel (good news, glad tidings, etc.), not Paul's gospel, nor anyone else's gospel.
And this obviously has nothing to do with the Nicean Creed from 325 a.d.

Note:
There is some difference between Jesus’ preaching of His gospel to the multitudes
compared to His teaching to His disciples (especially at the end of His ministry).
To the mutlitudes … was the Holy Spirit ever included?
To the disciples … the Holy Spirit was included,
especially in His great farewell discourse (see a great Trinity passage: John 14:16-26).

Two sources of belief in the Trinity:
1) being born into a family, culture, etc. which has “blind faith” in it.
2) being given a further spiritual revelation (beyond a belief in the gospel).

My bottom line(s) here:
The Trinity was NEVER a part of the simple gospel that Jesus preached to the multitudes
(mostly on the lush green hills and mountainsides in da Holy Land).
A belief in the Trinity often needs to come from a spiritual revelation.

Are you able to show me verses of Jesus' preaching (in the 4 gospels)
where the Trinity is a part of His gospel?

Note:
There has been a great problem because of the absence of the Trinity in Jesus’ gospel.
This has led many (including Muslims) to insist that Paul preached a different gospel.
But, let us realize that Jesus and Paul preached to 2 totally different audiences:
Jesus preached to the multitudes (none of which had the Holy Spirit).
Paul’s letters were to the churches (most of whom had the Holy Spirit).

 

[Jake]

This is NOT arguing against the Trinity … I believe in the Triune Godhead.

Jesus went around to all of the villages and towns preaching the gospel ... His gospel.
And later, Jesus commanded His disciples to preach His gospel to the ends of the earth.

Jesus’ gospel (good news, glad tidings, etc.), not Paul's gospel, nor anyone else's gospel.
And this obviously has nothing to do with the Nicean Creed from 325 a.d.

Note:
There is some difference between Jesus’ preaching of His gospel to the multitudes
compared to His teaching to His disciples (especially at the end of His ministry).
To the mutlitudes … was the Holy Spirit ever included?
To the disciples … the Holy Spirit was included,
especially in His great farewell discourse (see a great Trinity passage: John 14:16-26).

Two sources of belief in the Trinity:
1) being born into a family, culture, etc. which has “blind faith†in it.
2) being given a further spiritual revelation (beyond a belief in the gospel).

My bottom line
The Trinity was never a part of the simple gospel that Jesus preached to the multitudes.
A belief in the Trinity often needs to come from a spiritual revelation.

Are you able to show me verses of Jesus' preaching (in the 4 gospels)
where the Trinity is a part of His gospel?

Note:
There has been a great problem because of the absence of the Trinity in Jesus’ gospel.
This has led many (including Muslims) to insist that Paul preached a different gospel.
But, let us realize that Jesus and Paul preached to 2 totally different audiences:
Jesus preached to the multitudes (none of which had the Holy Spirit).
Paul’s letters were to the churches (most of whom had the Holy Spirit).

Jesus didn't preach to people who had the Holy Spirit because He hadn't died and was resurrected yet, however He did say, He would send a helper. It doesn't matter if they were preaching to two different people, just like it doesn't matter if Peter was speaking to the Jews, the entire Bible was written for us and to us.
Knowing Jesus was God, knowing He was going to send His Holy Spirit - the Trinity, there isn't an absence, it's as plain as day.

 

[Brother Lawrence]

This is NOT arguing against the Trinity … I believe in the Triune Godhead.

Jesus went around to all of the villages and towns preaching the gospel ... His gospel.
And later, Jesus commanded His disciples to preach His gospel to the ends of the earth.

Jesus’ gospel (good news, glad tidings, etc.), not Paul's gospel, nor anyone else's gospel.
And this obviously has nothing to do with the Nicean Creed from 325 a.d.

Note:
There is some difference between Jesus’ preaching of His gospel to the multitudes
compared to His teaching to His disciples (especially at the end of His ministry).
To the mutlitudes … was the Holy Spirit ever included?
To the disciples … the Holy Spirit was included,
especially in His great farewell discourse (see a great Trinity passage: John 14:16-26).

Two sources of belief in the Trinity:
1) being born into a family, culture, etc. which has “blind faith” in it.
2) being given a further spiritual revelation (beyond a belief in the gospel).

My bottom line

The Trinity was never a part of the simple gospel that Jesus preached to the multitudes.
A belief in the Trinity often needs to come from a spiritual revelation.

Are you able to show me verses of Jesus' preaching (in the 4 gospels)
where the Trinity is a part of His gospel?

Note:
There has been a great problem because of the absence of the Trinity in Jesus’ gospel.
This has led many (including Muslims) to insist that Paul preached a different gospel.
But, let us realize that Jesus and Paul preached to 2 totally different audiences:
Jesus preached to the multitudes (none of which had the Holy Spirit).
Paul’s letters were to the churches (most of whom had the Holy Spirit).

Do you people ever actually READ the Bible?

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Matthew 28:19

You make a lot of assumptions that are not scriptural. Where is the proof that Paul's Gospel was different from Jesus' Gospel, and what was different about it?

The Trinity was never a part of the simple gospel that Jesus preached to the multitudes.
A belief in the Trinity often needs to come from a spiritual revelation.

Are you able to show me verses of Jesus' preaching (in the 4 gospels)
where the Trinity is a part of His gospel?

Are you able to show me that it was not? I actually READ my Bible and take notice of it when Jesus invokes the Trinity, or the other persons of the Trinity.

 

[th1b.taylor]

B.L.
It will do no good to be logical because 99.9% of them have never sat down and read the Bible, like it was the Book that it is. And it likely true that 98% have never sat down on Saturday or Sunday afternoon and read one of the 66 books through in the manor it was meant to be read. Over the past 16 years of Computer Ministry I have been informed, over and over again, that I was crazy, nuts and I could not be so foolish/stupid as to believe that the Bible, from ¨In the beginning...¨ through the very last Amen of Revelation 22 was of one context.


What you have here, on the web, and in the Church are Pew Whales! they just sit and cry out ¨Feed me, feed me,¨ never even attempting to walk with God in the cool of the evening every day. They are far to busy diging that hole straight down for any of that stuff!

 

[Brother Lawrence]

B.L.
It will do no good to be logical because 99.9% of them have never sat down and read the Bible, like it was the Book that it is. And it likely true that 98% have never sat down on Saturday or Sunday afternoon and read one of the 66 books through in the manor it was meant to be read. Over the past 16 years of Computer Ministry I have been informed, over and over again, that I was crazy, nuts and I could not be so foolish/stupid as to believe that the Bible, from ¨In the beginning...¨ through the very last Amen of Revelation 22 was of one context.

This is one of the things I have against "study guides". They steer you to verses that the author thinks are important and leave the rest behind. We have a lectionary that allows you to read one OT verse, one NT verse (or Gospel) and one Psalm per day, two if you do it in the evening, in sequence. You immediately see how the OT and the NT seamlessly blend together, and the wealth of theology present in the Psalms.

Non-Trinitarians oftem present the same "proof texts" over and over again, ignoring everything in between, and they ignore the fact that if Jesus was not fully God or that if there is no Trinity the whole message of salvation is nonsensical. One thing the JW's and non-Trinitarian types can never explain is what the advantage of their belief actually is.

What you have here, on the web, and in the Church are Pew Whales! they just sit and cry out ¨Feed me, feed me,¨ never even attempting to walk with God in the cool of the evening every day. They are far to busy diging that hole straight down for any of that stuff!

It's what I call Churchianity.

 

[John Zain]

Jesus didn't preach to people who had the Holy Spirit because He hadn't died and was resurrected yet, however He did say, He would send a helper. It doesn't matter if they were preaching to two different people, just like it doesn't matter if Peter was speaking to the Jews, the entire Bible was written for us and to us.Knowing Jesus was God, knowing He was going to send His Holy Spirit -
the Trinity, there isn't an absence, it's as plain as day.

In your color-blindness you can't distinguish the color red ... I understand.

 

[John Zain]

Do you people ever actually READ the Bible?
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19
You make a lot of assumptions that are not scriptural.
Where is the proof that Paul's Gospel was different from Jesus' Gospel, and what was different about it?

Dearest Brudder,

You’re going to have to learn how to read before participating in this Forum.
After you do, carefully read through Post #1.

Matthew 28:19 was spoken to His 11 disciples … quite a multitude indeed.
Concerning Jesus vs. Paul, you’ll have to ask the “many (including Muslims)”.
Regarding the challenge to show, I hereby offer the whole NT as my proof.

P.S. Did you know that many (most?) monks in monasteries are not born again?

P.S. In Post #5 are you saying that I'm a non-Trinitarian?

 

[John Zain]

B. L. and Taylor,

Show me verses of Jesus' preaching (in the 4 gospels) where the Trinity is a part of His gospel?

Don't forget, preaching to the multitudes!

 

[Jake]

In your color-blindness you can't distinguish the color red ... I understand.

The problem with your approach is you want us to take a few verses here and there, throw them into the mix, and not take the entire written Word into council.

 

[Jake]

The problem with your approach is you want us to take a few verses here and there, throw them into the mix, and not take the entire written Word into council.

There is only one gospel, Jesus is God, God gave us His written Word, all of the written Word is Jesus' words, the whole council of the Word, yet you want specifically what He said to people while He was dwelling on the earth? Besides, go and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Jesus spoke about the Trinity in these verses.

Mark 3:28 “Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sinâ€â€” 30 because they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.â€


John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

 

[Drew]

Two sources of belief in the Trinity:
1) being born into a family, culture, etc. which has “blind faith†in it.
2) being given a further spiritual revelation (beyond a belief in the gospel).

My bottom line
The Trinity was never a part of the simple gospel that Jesus preached to the multitudes.
A belief in the Trinity often needs to come from a spiritual revelation.

Jesus may not have explicitly preached the Trinity but He performed symbolic actions and said somewhat coded things that, to the Biblically literate, clearly constituted a claim on His part that He (Jesus) was the incarnation of Israel's God.

So I think I am fundamentally disagreeing with your assertion - one does not "special revelation" or "blind faith" to arrive at the Trinity - it is right there in the Bible for the person who understands enough of the Old Testament to see it. Or, at the very least, there is enough in the Bible to draw the conclusion that Jesus is "God".

I will defer presenting actual evidence to support my position to later posts.

 

[Drew]

B. L. and Taylor,

Show me verses of Jesus' preaching (in the 4 gospels) where the Trinity is a part of His gospel?

Don't forget, preaching to the multitudes!

As per this issue in another thread, it is simply not proper to "restrict" allowable evidence to "verses". That is too atomistic an approach. More later.

 

[Brother Lawrence]

Dearest Brudder,

You’re going to have to learn how to read before participating in this Forum.
After you do, carefully read through Post #1.

As soon as you post a coherent thought.

Matthew 28:19 was spoken to His 11 disciples … quite a multitude indeed.

Ever been baptised? For $30 who does the baptist invoke when he pours the water over your head, or dunks you under the surface of the water?

P.S. Did you know that many (most?) monks in monasteries are not born again?

Where in Gehenna did you ever get that idea? I want to see proof of that this time, not more double - talk and obfuscation. Or is this just another trick question that includes all monks and monasteries, and not just Christians?

P.S. In Post #5 are you saying that I'm a non-Trinitarian?

Well, if not then you are probably schizophrenic.

 

[Mike]

Folks, let's try and keep criticism on what is said instead of who said it. I was tempted to delete some posts or edit them, but I'll put this out there and hope people respond.

 

[Mike]

Nothing new here. The Trinity is found in scripture if you don't read it with a dismissive mind. When Christ refers to a single person within the Trinity, I believe this is evidence enough that we can separate them while knowing they are One.

Matthew 24
"23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time."

There is also the account of Jesus' baptism that has often been cited.

Beyond scripture, we can look at what the early Church believed and practiced. Those who oppose the Trinity have to take into account the foundation that our faith was built upon and dismiss it. Personally, I'm not going to spend too much time on this here. Until hearts are open to the Truth of His Nature, this notion will circle and re-circle.

 

[John Zain]

All I'm interested in, and all I should be interested in, is this ...

Show me verses of Jesus' preaching (in the 4 gospels) where the Trinity is a part of His gospel?
And His preaching to the multitudes only, if you don't mind.
And while you're at it, don't forget His preaching about the Holy Spirit.
Good luck!

P.S. The last thing we need around here is people responding before actually reading the initial thread.
Understanding it might also be helpful. Over and outski.

 

[Elijah674]

What kind of question is that? (Heb. 5??) John tel's of the Doctrine of Christ, and penned that it is the Eternal Gospel in Rev. .

Plus Christ is THE ONE that is 'testified of from others' of His WORD. And Christ Himself in John has Himself IN Heaven sending back God/Spirit, HOLY SPIRIT, HOLY GHOST, to UPLIFT HIMSELF! This part of the Godhead is Inspired as 'SPIRIT'. Father & Christ are not so.

 

[Jake]

All I'm interested in, and all I should be interested in, is this ...

Show me verses of Jesus' preaching (in the 4 gospels) where the Trinity is a part of His gospel?
And His preaching to the multitudes only, if you don't mind.
And while you're at it, don't forget His preaching about the Holy Spirit.
Good luck!

P.S. The last thing we need around here is people responding before actually reading the initial thread.
Understanding it might also be helpful. Over and outski.

Some of us already provided scripture, not sure why you're ignoring them???

 

[Jake]

What kind of question is that? (Heb. 5??) John tel's of the Doctrine of Christ, and penned that it is the Eternal Gospel in Rev. .

Plus Christ is THE ONE that is 'testified of from others' of His WORD. And Christ Himself in John has Himself IN Heaven sending back God/Spirit, HOLY SPIRIT, HOLY GHOST, to UPLIFT HIMSELF! This part of the Godhead is Inspired as 'SPIRIT'. Father & Christ are not so.

Exactly! You can't ask a question like this and tell us to ONLY use certain scripture and ignore the rest.....that's how cults are created.

 

[Elijah674]

John is one of my favorite 'penman' of Christ's Words. He has written a good number of books himself for our Lord. It is hard for me to think that 'folks' honestly could think that John did not know what ETERNAL GOSPEL from his pen in Rev. 14:6 meant??

And a very Many Truths passed in between John one, & His Rev. 22's finished writtings in AD 96 there/bouts. And to be Eternal has Christ rightly so, as IMMORTAL in all directions! And again seen in Tim's TESTIMONY of the Doctrine of Christ as IMMORTAL! As seen in both 1 Tim. 1:15-17 & chapter 6:14-16.

And if Tim. had of required his work altered? (which is my stupid remark! see 1 Cor. 14:32!) surely John could have straightened it up being around for the finish of Christ whole Book.

2 John
[9] Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[10] If there come any unto you, and [bring not this doctrine], receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

[11] For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

My thinking on this, is that one should BELIEVE Eccl. 3:14 + Rev. 22's last couple verses of warning. And instead of teaching false stuff, they would instead just ask questions & not teach their error as fact!

--Elijah