Water Baptism.

[Brandon]

Just here to get your opinions on water baptism. 1st Peter 3:21(NIV) from the way i read it says yes you need water baptism to be saved, but the thief on the cross tells you another story. It would seem to me that water baptism is kinda of a works and its not really necessary, theres a few contradictions in the Bible on water baptism, your thoughts? Is water baptism required to be saved?

 

[Knotical]

That actually is not what the bible teaches. You do not need to be baptized in order to be saved. In other words your salvation is not predicated on whether or not you are baptized.

Baptism is merely a symbol that you are set apart by God. Basically, and outward sign that you are saved. Salvation comes before baptism in most cases. The only time when salvation comes after baptism is with pedo-baptism (infant baptism). Many reformed faiths, as well as catholics, baptize their children, though for different reasons as their beliefs in regard to baptism differs.

The use of water is a symbol that Christ has washed our sins away, made us "white as snow" as it were.

 

[Brandon]

That actually is not what the bible teaches. You do not need to be baptized in order to be saved. In other words your salvation is not predicated on whether or not you are baptized.

Baptism is merely a symbol that you are set apart by God. Basically, and outward sign that you are saved. Salvation comes before baptism in most cases. The only time when salvation comes after baptism is with pedo-baptism (infant baptism). Many reformed faiths, as well as catholics, baptize their children, though for different reasons as their beliefs in regard to baptism differs.

The use of water is a symbol that Christ has washed our sins away, made us "white as snow" as it were.

What about in John 3:5. It does say you have to be born of water and spirit to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Knotical]

What about in John 3:5. It does say you have to be born of water and spirit to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Any time you study scripture you have to look at the context. Jesus is responding to Nicodemus' questions about being born again in the passage you quoted. Our first birth is from the womb, the second birth is spiritual. One cannot happen without the other, but the water in that passage is not literally referring to baptism.

Later in the same chapter John is responding to questions about baptism saying, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven." This is further evidence that we cannot gain salvation on our own, but only through Christ. John the baptist was baptizing people, not because he was imparting salvation to them, but to administer the sacrament that showed that they were set apart by God.

In order to truly understand what is happening in baptism you must first start in Genesis 17 when the sacrament of circumcision was instituted and why. Baptism is what replaced circumcision as the sign, but neither circumcision nor baptism brings about salvation.

 

[JLB]

Just here to get your opinions on water baptism. 1st Peter 3:21(NIV) from the way i read it says yes you need water baptism to be saved, but the thief on the cross tells you another story. It would seem to me that water baptism is kinda of a works and its not really necessary, theres a few contradictions in the Bible on water baptism, your thoughts? Is water baptism required to be saved?

The thief on the cross confessed Jesus as Lord, which is what Paul says is unto salvation.

Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” Luke 23:42

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10


Also, please consider what Paul taught us about those who will be given eternal life, and those who will reap God's wrath.

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:5-8





JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

1st Peter 3:21(NIV) from the way i read it says yes you need water baptism to be saved, but the thief on the cross tells you another story.

You are overlooking the fact that it was impossible for the thief to be baptized. So, unless one is nailed to a cross or similarly indisposed, we are commanded (by Jesus) to be baptized.

It would seem to me that water baptism is kinda of a works and its not really necessary

It's only necessary if one wishes to be "born again." (Edit: This seems to have been a substantial misquote of scripture and had no reference to the chapter, verse, and version that was being quoted. Therefore this is a violation of the forum guidelines as well as a violation of ToS 2.7. Obadiah) Baptism is the "of water" part.

theres a few contradictions in the Bible on water baptism,

Iakov the fool


No, there are no contradictions in the scriptures concerning baptism. There are contradictions in the way people interpret the scriptures but not actually in the scriptures.

 

[Jim Parker]

Any time you study scripture you have to look at the context. Jesus is responding to Nicodemus' questions about being born again in the passage you quoted. Our first birth is from the womb, the second birth is spiritual. One cannot happen without the other, but the water in that passage is not literally referring to baptism.

Of course it is. Otherwise, why would Peter tell the people on Pentecost that to be saved they must: “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (acts 2:38) And why would Peter command that the household of Cornelius be baptized? (Acts 10:48) Why would the household of the Phillipian jailer's entire family baptized by Paul?

They were all baptized because Jesus commanded that all believers be baptized and Paul explained that in baptism we die and are buried with Christ and then raised again to new life. That resurrection to new life (regeneration) is a "spiritual" work of God not a work of man trying to get saved. Just because baptism is in water, don't think that it is not a "spiritual"

Later in the same chapter John is responding to questions about baptism saying, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven." This is further evidence that we cannot gain salvation on our own, but only through Christ.

Absolutely. And what we receive from the Lord in Baptism is new life in Christ. It has absolutely nothing to do with gaining salvation on our own. It is about obeying the LORD's command to be baptized and receiving from the Lord the new life in Him that He freely gives to all who love Him. (And those who love Him keep His commands. (John 14:15 NKJV “If you love Me, keep My commandments. He commanded we be baptized at Mat 28:19)

Baptism is what replaced circumcision as the sign,

That's not what scripture says. Nowhere in scripture does it say that baptism is a sign and that's because baptism is not a sign. It is the regeneration from death to new life which God does when a believer is baptized in obedience to Jesus' command.

(Edit: Scripture quote removed for failure to follow ToS.2.7 and copyright laws. Obadiah)
(Edit; ToS 2.4, personal insult and unwelcome spiritual advice. Having a different interpretation of scripture than you have does not indicate that a member "refuses to believe" scripture. Obadiah)

In baptism you are buried with Christ into His death and raised again to new life. And that "new life" is in Christ.

Is that confusing? I don't get why people don't understand it.

iakov the fool

 

[Obadiah]

I see that we have some misquoting of scripture and some adding of words to scripture that are not there. I will point out at this time that Tos 2.7 along with the guidelines for this particular forum require that if you are going to claim or imply that scripture says something you need to cite the chapter, verse, and version of scripture that actually says this. Not only is this required to comply with copyright laws, it also keeps the conversation theology centered AND keeps us all honest in that the reference can be verified as to what it really says.

You may of course state your interpretation of the scripture you cite, but please refrain from misquoting or adding to the actual scripture.

 

[JLB]

It's only necessary if one wishes to be "born again." Jesus one must be born again of water and of spirit to enter the kingdom of God. Baptism is the "of water" part.

Again, Jim, there is no such phrase in the bible as "born again of water".

You have changed the entire meaning of being born again.

Jesus teaches Nicodemus using "earthly things", [natural child birth], in order to express a heavenly reality, [spiritual birth].


There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

[ and the Spirit... was meant to dispel the popular Jewish mindset, that being a natural child of Abraham, meant automatic salvation ]

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:1-12


Please look carefully at these two key verse's in this teaching.

Verse 6 explains verse 5.

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

"Born of water" is a reference to natural child birth.

One must be born, in the first place, through natural child birth, to be born again.

"Again" being a reference to the second birth.

"Again" would mean a birth has already taken place, don't you agree?

There has to be a birth in the first place, for there to be a "birth again".

There has to be a natural birth first, in order for there to be a spiritual birth.

Born of water refers to the natural birth process, in which a baby is born when the mother's sack water breaks.

John uses this phrase when teaching about the Virgin Birth of Christ.

6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6

Came by water is a reference to natural child birth.

Came by water and blood is a reference to the Supernatural Virgin Birth, of Jesus Christ.


We are born again, by believing the Gospel message, the word of God.

...having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:23

We are born of God, and become His sons, by faith, when we believe the message of the kingdom, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1

Natural water can not cause a spiritual birth... flesh gives birth to flesh, and the Spirit gives birth to spirit.



JLB

 

[turnorburn]

The thief on the cross should settle this argument once and for all else all of those that were prevented from water baptism never made heaven.. Those that believed on the Lord Jesus Christ before the hangman opened that trap door or those in the electric chair before the executioner threw the switch or those being tortured accepting Christ before their heads were lopped off. No, to say that water baptism is necessary to enter eternal life is an error, a grievous error...

 

[Jim Parker]

Again, Jim, there is no such phrase in the bible as "born again of water".

That is 100% absolutely true!

So what?

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jesus said we must be born again.

Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Nicodemus asked how anyone can be "born again."

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
In answer to his question as to how one is "born again," Jesus told him he had to be born of water and of spirit.

Question: How is one "born again"?
Jesus' answer: "Be born of water and of the Spirit."
That's about a plain as it gets.

"Born of water" is a reference to natural child birth.

Natural childbirth is how we are born the FIRST time.
Baptism in water and Spirit is how we are born AGAIN.
One cannot be born "AGAIN" (second time) without having already been born the first time.

That baptism was being born again was the teaching of the very early church. Following is the apostolic teaching received by Justin Martyr no more than one generation removed from the apostles.

Justin Martyr (100 – 165 AD) The First Apology, Chapter LXI, “Christian Baptism”

I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean;...”

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; ...

I don't make this stuff up. I just report, as best as I can, what the church has always taught.

hope that helps

mazel tov!

Iakov the fool

 

[Knotical]

That is 100% absolutely true!

So what?

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jesus said we must be born again.

Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Nicodemus asked how anyone can be "born again."

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
In answer to his question as to how one is "born again," Jesus told him he had to be born of water and of spirit.

Question: How is one "born again"?
Jesus' answer: "Be born of water and of the Spirit."
That's about a plain as it gets.



Natural childbirth is how we are born the FIRST time.
Baptism in water and Spirit is how we are born AGAIN.
One cannot be born "AGAIN" (second time) without having already been born the first time.

That baptism was being born again was the teaching of the very early church. Following is the apostolic teaching received by Justin Martyr no more than one generation removed from the apostles.

Justin Martyr (100 – 165 AD) The First Apology, Chapter LXI, “Christian Baptism”

I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean;...”

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; ...

I don't make this stuff up. I just report, as best as I can, what the church has always taught.

hope that helps

mazel tov!

Iakov the fool

It appears you are taking symbolism and mistaking it for something literal. As others pointed out there are those who were promised eternity in heaven without ever having been water baptized. That doesn't mean they weren't baptized in the Holy Spirit and received the gift of salvation through Christ (i.e., the thief on the cross).

To be regenerated is an internal, spiritual thing, not something that water actually does. Again it is a symbol of what is happening internally. The washing away of our sins.

 

[turnorburn]

The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from sin not a man made doctrine from a man made church, if said church is teaching the doctrine of baptismal regeneration they are in grievous error, what by chance is the church your referring to?

 

[Jim Parker]

As others pointed out there are those who were promised eternity in heaven without ever having been water baptized.

Yes, yes, The thief on the cross. Did you notice the fact that it was impossible for him to be baptized because he was nailed to a cross?

To be regenerated is an internal, spiritual thing, not something that water actually does.

I never said it was something that "water does." Water doesn't do anything.
GOD is the cause of regeneration in the waters of baptism; not man; not water: GOD.

Again it is a symbol of what is happening internally. The washing away of our sins.

NO. It is not a "symbol" as you use the word "symbol." A symbol has no meaning unless it represents a reality.

In baptism, according to that Bible thingy, what is "actually happening" is that, in baptism,we really (not symbolically) receive remission of our sins. Our sins are, in complete reality and not just "symbolically" remitted.

Q: Are sins something that water can wash away like dirt?
A: No.

We are SACRAMENTALLY (really, not "symbolically") buried into Christ's death in baptism.
Our "body of sin" is SACRAMENTALLY (really, not "symbolically") buried with Christ.
Then we are SACRAMENTALLY (really, not "symbolically") raised to new life in Christ.

A sacrament is a physical manifestation of a spiritual reality.

The word "spiritual" does not refer to "make believe" as some seem to use it. Reality is both physical and spiritual.

The church which Jesus established has always taught that we are born again through both baptism in water and in the Spirit. It is modern Christians who are uncomfortable with the idea of a sacrament that invented the idea that baptism was "only symbolic" and just a "sign."

DON'T BELIEVE ME. Research the history of the ancient church and find out for yourself. That's what I did.

Mazel tov!

iakov the fool

 

[Knotical]

Yes, yes, The thief on the cross. You seem to ignore that it was impossible for him to be baptized while he was
nailed to a cross.



NO. It is not a "symbol" as you use the word "symbol." A symbol has no meaning unless it represents a reality.

In baptism, according to that Bible thingy, we receive remission of our sins.
Are sins something that water can wash away like dirt? No.

We are SACRAMENTALLY (not "symbolically") buried into Christ's death in baptism.
Our "body of sin" is SACRAMENTALLY (not "symbolically") buried with Christ.
Then we are SACRAMENTALLY (not "symbolically") raised to new life in Christ.

You may want to review your understanding of the words Sacrament and Symbolic. You may have them confused.

 

[Jim Parker]

You may want to review your understanding of the words Sacrament and Symbolic. You may have them confused.

That's a real possibility. Please enlighten me.

 

[Knotical]

A sacrament is a ceremony that symbolizes a certain aspect of our faith. The Lords Supper is a sacrament where we partake in the consuming of wine (or juice in some denominations) and bread, which symbolize Christ's blood and flesh. There is nothing literal that takes place during that sacrament, but it symbolizes what Christ did for us when He died on the cross for our sins.

I am starting to wonder if you are speaking from a catholic background.

 

[WIP]

Please review the forum guidelines.

 

[Jim Parker]

I am starting to wonder if you are speaking from a catholic background.

Heavens to Betsy! Not KATH-lick!!!! :shock

Since modern churches can't agree on what to believe, I choose to base my belief and understanding on the universal teaching of the ancient church rather than the modern innovators with their "new and improved" winds of doctrine.

The Lords Supper is a sacrament where we partake in the consuming of wine (or juice in some denominations) and bread, which symbolize Christ's blood and flesh.

That's a good example of a modern innovation. The ancient church never taught that the bread and wine was a "symbol" of the body and blood. They all taught that it actually IS the Lord's body and blood. It wasn't until Zwingli, in the 16th century that a "symbolic" understanding of the Eucharist was seriously espoused.

See:

Ignatius of Antioch (30-107 A. D. A disciple of the apostle John and Bishop of Antioch) in his Epistle to the Smyrnaens, Ch. VII: “Let Us Stand Aloof from Such Heretics” states; “They (the heretics) abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins,..”

He was taught by the John, the beloved disciple of Christ and, in this statement, he affirms the teaching of the apostles and Christ that the bread is Christ’s body.

Justin Martyr, the church’s first apologist, wrote in the first half of the 2nd century in his “The First Apology of Justin”, in Chapter LXVI.—Of the Eucharist. In it he reports what he was taught as a new Christian by the church. That would mean that the teaching he received was already established in the church. It is not some later innovation by the Roman church but was a part of the teaching of the apostles who taught what they learned from Jesus. It is God’s inspired teaching to the church by His Son, through the apostles to the church.

And here it is:

“And this food is called among us Eujcaristiva [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; ”and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood; ”and gave it to them alone.”

Further early references:


IRENAEUS, Against Heresies (175-185 AD)

Book IV; Chapter XVIII.—Concerning Sacrifices and Oblations, and Those Who Truly Offer Them.

4…………..But how can they be consistent with themselves, [when they say] that the bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood, if they do not call Himself the Son of the Creator of the world, that is, His Word, through whom the wood fructifies, and the fountains gush forth, and the earth gives “first the blade, then the ear, then the full corn in the ear.”

5. Then, again, how can they say that the flesh, which is nourished with the body of the Lord and with His blood, goes to corruption, and does not partake of life? Let them, therefore, either alter their opinion, or cease from offering the things just mentioned. But our opinion is in accordance with the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn establishes our opinion. For we offer to Him His own, announcing consistently the fellowship and union of the flesh and Spirit. For as the bread, which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly; so also our bodies, when they receive the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, having the hope of the resurrection to eternity.


Chapter XXXIII.—Whosoever Confesses that One God is the Author of Both Testaments, and Diligently Reads the Scriptures in Company with the Presbyters of the Church, is a True Spiritual Disciple; And He Will Rightly Understand and Interpret All that the Prophets Have Declared Respecting Christ and the Liberty of the New Testament.

2. Moreover, he shall also examine the doctrine of Marcion, [inquiring] how he holds that there are two gods, separated from each other by an infinite distance. Or how can he be good who draws away men that do not belong to him from him who made them, and calls them into his own kingdom? And why is his goodness, which does not save all [thus], defective? Also, why does he, indeed, seem to be good as respects men, but most unjust with regard to him who made men, inasmuch as he deprives him of his possessions? Moreover, how could the Lord, with any justice, if He belonged to another father, have acknowledged the bread to be His body, while He took it from that creation to which we belong, and affirmed the mixed cup to be His blood? And why did He acknowledge Himself to be the Son of man, if He had not gone through that birth which belongs to a human being? How, too, could He forgive us those sins for which we are answerable to our Maker and God? And how, again, supposing that He was not flesh, but was a man merely in appearance, could He have been crucified, and could blood and water have issued from His pierced side? What body, moreover, was it that those who buried Him consigned to the tomb? And what was that which rose again from the dead?

I trust those who were the closest to the apostles over the multitude of discordant voices heard 2000 years later from those who assume they are more intelligent and have a better anointing from the Holy Spirit than the early church fathers and the members of the ecumenical counsels. Those include folks from John Calvin to Jim Jones and everyone in between. Since I doubt that I'm more qualified to interpret the Bible than the early church fathers and don't think I have my own private line into the Holy Spirit's office, I defer to them.

OOOOPS! Hope I didn't step on any toes!

That's just where I'm coming from.

Mazel tov!

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Please review the forum guidelines.

Please, specifically which guideline???

Thanks.