We need to love the murderer, rapist and mobster!

[christgal33]

I agree. It is important that we must love those who had fallen as well as we loved those who are saints. It is not easy. Our natural man will not like to love a murderer, or a rapist but that is why we need to take up the cross and sacrifice our own natural instincts.

 

[Tenchi]

What we often forget is that while our own sins may seem small in our eyes, they are large and big in God's eyes. We may think we are good people, but we are sinners, too, in God's eyes, just like the murderer, rapist, mobster we despise.

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8 ESV

Before we know God or receive Jesus into our lives, we are just as hopeless as the mobster, rapist or murderer we despise. Yet, God does not think we deserve to go to eternal jail, hell but deserve to be blessed with Him in our eternal home, heaven. God gives us a second chance. Jesus died on the cross and paid the penalty for our sins. God did not give us what we deserve.

So, it is important that we do not look with disdain at the murderer, rapist or mobster but we look at them with compassion, instead. We also ought not to give to them what we think they deserve--jail or electric chair but our compassions.

What is so ironic in the statement above is that God hates sin - all of it, from a proud look to murder, it's all abominable behavior in His eyes (Proverbs 6:16-19). But the OPer seems to be urging us to take a soft view of sin because we, too, are sinners. This isn't God's command. Instead, He tells us to hate and reject our pride and selfishness, our "pettier" sins of resentment, and gluttony, and sexual lust, just as much as we ought to hate and reject rape and murder.

Are we to cast aside the sinner? No, of course not. We are to love the sinner as God does. But this love never requires that we condone or soften the terrible sin of rape, or murder, or whatever. Our condemnation of these evil things ought to be crystal clear and unyielding - just as our condemnation of arrogance, divisiveness, gossip, and bitterness ought to be.

It isn't godly compassion that moves a Christian to pat the back of the convict in prison and tell them they aren't such a bad person. They are so evil, God says, that if they don't repent of their sin and submit themselves to His authority, they will go to hell. This is what the convict needs to hear above all else, not that, underneath all of their sin, they're actually a good person.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I dunno ?‍

Teaching one’s desperate need for forgiveness is part of the good news. So is the love of Jesus Christ. I don’t know….

How to properly explain it to any unbeliever without resorting to manipulation. Fire and brimstone to put fear in him? The mercy of Christ because he had a hard life?

Thankfully ? all Christians can do is water and wait and pray ?. God gives the increase…

 

[Whatever]

Gen 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.

Life in prison for murder is a cruel and unusual punishment. It especially punishes all the tax payers that have to pay for this murdererto be fed, clothed and get health care for 50 or more years.

The Civil magistrate:
Romans 13:4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Notice the sword is an instrument for killing.

Earlier in chapter 12 Paul says:
Romans 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

I always thought by "the wrath of God" it was talking about Judgment day. But then in chapter 13, Paul tells us that the civil magistrates executes wrath on evil doers. In other words, leave it to the police or courts. Don't be a vigilante.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I dunno ?‍

Teaching one’s desperate need for forgiveness is part of the good news. So is the love of Jesus Christ. I don’t know….

How to properly explain it to any unbeliever without resorting to manipulation. Fire and brimstone to put fear in him? The mercy of Christ because he had a hard life?

Thankfully ? all Christians can do is water and wait and pray ?. God gives the increase…

Nicely put...
The sower doesn't always get to see the harvest.

 

[Whatever]

Fire and brimstone to put fear in him?

That was a lot of what the Puritans did. Did you ever read Jonathan Edwards sermon "sinners in the hands of an angry God."?
It's free and about 11 pages.

https://www.jonathan-edwards.org/Sinners.pdf

This is a 2 page abridged version.

https://www.livingston.org/cms/lib9/NJ01000562/Centricity/Domain/790/Sinners%20in%20the%20Hands%20of%20an%20Angry%20God%20Abridged.pdf

Anyhow we got away from this and now we have gay churches and gangs of kids roaming the streets.

 

[Juliarod]

Forgiveness and grace are hallmarks of our faith. We should continue in them as Christ did.
I was a victim of rape. I have forgiven him fully. God is a God of restoration and God works all thing for good for those who love Him. I am not condoning his sin, but I understand it because I too am a sinner.

 

[jonathanbrickman0000]

Anyhow we got away from this and now we have gay churches and gangs of kids roaming the streets.

It's useful to note, that when Mr. Edwards was preaching, many of the most prominent men of society were well-known to patronize brothels, and even the Hellfire Club was not looked at as worthy of public concern. One of the most prominent men of all, Benjamin Franklin, put forward for hundreds of years now as a paragon of virtue, published very publicly of his behavior as a famous rakehell. And Indians were being exterminated whenever and wherever possible, the per-head bounty was very public indeed.

I'm rather happy that that society does not exist anymore.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think part of the problem is that some countries have decided to punish and warehouse criminals instead of working towards rehabilitation. The result is a cycle of crime prison and a deviant lifestyle in society’s underclass. At least some of today’s so called career criminals could have been rehabilitated…

 

[Whatever]

At least some of today’s so called career criminals could have been rehabilitated…

I would think that the person most capable of rehabilitating people would be the Lord. He made us and knows what makes us tick.

We would think that some of the people in Noah's day could have been rehabilitated. Answers In Genesis has an article on what the pre-flood population might have been like. One estimate was 750 million.
Yet God killed all of them except Noah and his family.

We would think that some of the people in Sodom could have been rehabilitated. Again, all were killed except Lot and his family.

We would think that some of the people in Jericho could have been rehabilitated. Yet God had them kill every man, woman and child except for Rahab and her family because she helped the spies.

God only seems to want to rehabilitate the few sheep that He sent Jesus to atone for.

 

[Christ_empowered]

God saves His chosen people. I believe that as well. What I’m saying is that rehabilitation and reintegration into society is possible for a lot of people but not if they’re constantly labeled confined with other criminals and then unable to get work…

 

[JLB]

What did these people do to "deserve" anything other than their punishment.

Dictionary on deserve = to merit, be qualified for, or have a claim to.

New King James
Romans 1:32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

All of us have merited damnation. None of us deserve to be reconciled with God. People are only reconciled to God by God's unmerited grace.

Yes, we as sinners should pray for their salvation exactly because they don't deserve it.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


God loves the unsaved people of the world and wants all men to be saved.

Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:1-4

• For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved

 

[Whatever]

Forgiveness and grace are hallmarks of our faith.

Yes, for individual persons.
But governing authorities are ministers of God and bear the sword to punish evil doers.

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil.
Romans 13:4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

God knows us.
Ecclesiastes 8:11 Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

Why do we have gangs of juveniles running around doing all the evil they are doing?

Deuteronomy 21:18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.

Liberals and progressives today say the death penalty doesn't work. Well yeah, when the person gets all kinds of appeals and only gets executed 20 years later. That seems to prove that whoever wrote Ecclesiastes knew what he was talking about:

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

 

[Juliarod]

Yes, for individual persons.
But governing authorities are ministers of God and bear the sword to punish evil doers.

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil.
Romans 13:4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

God knows us.
Ecclesiastes 8:11 Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

Why do we have gangs of juveniles running around doing all the evil they are doing?

Deuteronomy 21:18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.

Liberals and progressives today say the death penalty doesn't work. Well yeah, when the person gets all kinds of appeals and only gets executed 20 years later. That seems to prove that whoever wrote Ecclesiastes knew what he was talking about:

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

Well I am thankful my rapist wasn’t executed. I am not excusing what he did but I understand he was filled with lust to fulfill a desire deep inside himself. He needed release and to dominate and I was an easy target. What he did was abhorrent but at the same time I forgive him and I have met with him and even his family. I forgave him publicly. I pray for him and think of him often, not in a trauma way but in a bit of sadness for him. He took that which he shouldn’t have. Women typically blame themselves for such acts, but I know it was not my fault either. God is restoring him in large part because I forgave him and he knows that. I won’t give the details but the man was also on drugs. He was young and high and in need of something he thought I could give him. In the end, it didn’t satisfy him - because sin is only a temporary satisfaction. God can restore people unto Himself. I am not condoning that sin or behavior or the crime and I am not making a policy statement about it either. People should pay for their crimes of course. I am just saying forgiveness is a powerful tool too.

 

[Whatever]

What I’m saying is that rehabilitation and reintegration into society is possible for a lot of people but not if they’re constantly labeled confined with other criminals and then unable to get work…

I don't think we would have that problem with a biblical system. Most would need to be confined for a short time to let the authorities figure out what happened. Then most would be sentenced to pay restitution. Business people would need to be willing to hire them so they can work and pay the restitution. If the person keeps repeating the offense, he is executed, not put into a prison paid for by taxpayers.

Serious crimes - rape, murder and such would be executed speedily. you shall put away the evil from among you.

 

[jonathanbrickman0000]

I don't think we would have that problem with a biblical system. Most would need to be confined for a short time to let the authorities figure out what happened. Then most would be sentenced to pay restitution. Business people would need to be willing to hire them so they can work and pay the restitution. If the person keeps repeating the offense, he is executed, not put into a prison paid for by taxpayers.

Serious crimes - rape, murder and such would be executed speedily. you shall put away the evil from among you.

So, you're going to kill disobedient children? Kill both people who commit adultery? Kill everyone who practices witchcraft? Kill everyone who blasphemes the Name of the Lord?

That's the only Biblical system for this world. Are you going to follow the Bible in its system for this world? Or are going to follow Jesus? Or maybe you're going to do as a great many have done, and chainsaw a few bits out of that system for this world, and a few bits out of the New Testament, ignore most of the rest of both, glue your favorite bits back together, and claim loudly with guns, mobs, lawyers, and legislators that that is what "Biblical" is?

 

[Whatever]

So, you're going to kill disobedient children? Kill both people who commit adultery? Kill everyone who practices witchcraft? Kill everyone who blasphemes the Name of the Lord?

I'm not going to do any of that. But I believe that is God's rule for the Civil government in this world.

Romans 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

In 12:19 when Paul says to not avenge yourself, but leave it to the wrath of God, he explains what that means in chapter 13. The Civil Magistrate carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

But civil magistrates today are to weak and infected with modern psychological lies to actually carry out God's wrath on evil doers. So law abiding citizens have to live with drug dealers next door, can't let their kids use the park down the street, being harassed by some crazed out lunatic on the subway or bus etc, etc.

 

[D-D-W]

Are you going to follow the Bible in its system for this world? Or are going to follow Jesus?

They are both the same. God's Word (whether the Living Word or the written Word) never changes.

 

[Whatever]

Are you going to follow the Bible in its system for this world? Or are going to follow Jesus?

I just re looked at that.
It seems that if you are a Christian living in this world then you would follow the Bible on how to live in the world. To me that would be following Jesus.
When Paul (after Jesus' death and resurrection) write that a Civil Magistrate is God's diakonos (minister); a word he uses for himself (Eph 3:7) and that the Civil Magistrate is appointed by God and that Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed.

God didn't give any specifications in the NT for how Civil Magistrates are to deal with evil doers. He did that in the Old Testament. I don't think God's punishments for back then have changed for today. The only thing that has changed is people's attitudes towards these laws.

Just about every thing Jesus said was for individuals like "if your brother is hungry, feed him." That meant "you feed him," not get the government to set up a socialist food stamp program.

The good Samaritan took the person to the inn and paid for all the person's needs out of his own pocket. Jesus didn't say the good Samaritan dropped him off and told the inn keeper to send the bill to Caesar.
With today's system, that would bankrupt you.

In Romans 13:3 Paul says rulers should be a terror to those who do evil.
I just learned something new when I looked up that word "terror."
G5401 phobos - From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

Evil people no longer fear the cops or justice system today. Ya wanna guess why?

 

[GodsGrace]

When we see a murderer, a rapist, or a mobster, our first reaction is to be disgusted by what these people did. It is natural. God created us with conscience, and it seemed that these people have no conscience or they would not be doing what they did. Our knowledge of what good and evil is made us despised these people who seemed delighted in only doing evil and not good. We think they deserve to go to jails and even to go the electric chairs!

What we often forget is that while our own sins may seem small in our eyes, they are large and big in God's eyes. We may think we are good people, but we are sinners, too, in God's eyes, just like the murderer, rapist, mobster we despise.

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8 ESV

Before we know God or receive Jesus into our lives, we are just as hopeless as the mobster, rapist or murderer we despise. Yet, God does not think we deserve to go to eternal jail, hell but deserve to be blessed with Him in our eternal home, heaven. God gives us a second chance. Jesus died on the cross and paid the penalty for our sins. God did not give us what we deserve.

So, it is important that we do not look with disdain at the murderer, rapist or mobster but we look at them with compassion, instead. We also ought not to give to them what we think they deserve--jail or electric chair but our compassions.

"Whoever despises his neighbor is a sinner, but blessed is he who is generous to the poor." Proverbs 14:21 ESV

God loves these hopeless scums we despise. God do not want them to perish without knowing Him. If they repent and receive Jesus into their lives, even they can be saved. They can turn from a life of crime and live a righteous and blessed life, just like us.

"Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord:

though your sins are like scarlet,

they shall be as white as snow;

though they are red like crimson,

they shall become like wool." Isaiah 1:18 ESV

Let us care for these rapists, murderers and mobsters like the way God wants us to. Let us look at them not at what they currently are, hopeless scums but see them the way God does--- His beloved sons and daughters, who Jesus came down to die for.

"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." Luke 19:10 ESV

No sin is too great in God's eyes. Every murderer, rapist and mobster needs to know Jesus. Let us not judge them for their sins, but pray fervently for their salvations, instead. Let us not think we are more righteous than them, but remember that we are sinners like they are, until God saved us.

"Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?" Matthew 7: 3 ESV

We need to look at these prodigal sons and daughters from a different perspective, not as scums that deserve to be judged for their sins but as precious human beings, made in God's image, who deserve to be reconciled with God!

Just a quick comment....
I have to agree with your last paragraph.
When I see someone with a grave sin...I see satan at work in them and feel rather sorry for them.
They need our prayers and not our hated.

HOWEVER, I cannot agree that if I lie to my neighbor...
it's the same as killing someone.

Jesus said that hating is the same as killing because it's the heart that counts and God
looks at our heart.

But surely,,,,actually killing someone is more serious...
although both sins are a sin to God....

Lying can distance us from God.
but killing would remove us from His presence.