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Bible Study WELCOME TO A DEEP LOOK AT GENESIS

Sinthesis said:
I recall something about a shrunken sinew, not a full blown dislocation.
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When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. (Gen. 32:25 ESV)​

Sounds like a dislocation to me.

The TOG​
 
Day 81 Sunday 7/6/14 Genesis 34:1-10 FOCUS ON DINAH.

Dinah, "went out to see the daughters of the land." The Jewish writers ( Targum of Jonathan, Aben Ezra, and Josephus ) say that Dinah was probably 14 or 15 years old. She was surrounded by her brothers with no female interaction, it must have been quite lonely for her. I find it interesting that Jacob had business dealings with Hamor, Shechem's father, when Jacob purchased a plot of land to pitch his tent. It is very possible that Shechem, one of Hamor's sons, and probably the first born, spotted Dinah while the transaction was going on, and "checked her out." :mischief

To have some female interactions, Dinah decided to go into the nearby City of Shechem. Sort of confusing, as that's the name of Hamor's son Shechem. Josephus writes that on that particular day, the City was having a yearly festival and the women would be dressed in their finest, perhaps that's what drew Dinah there to see how the ladies behaved, dressed, and their customs.

Eben Ezra noted that she apparently went alone and without her parents approval or permission. It seems very likely that had the family known of Dinah's intentions, one or more of her brothers would have accompanied her.

How ever it happened, Shechem may have made advances to Dinah which she refused and Shechem decided to force himself on her. It is a Jewish rule according to the Targum of Jonathan that such an act which is done by force is called "humiliation and affliction." Because of Shechem's great desire for Dinah, he and his father Hamor try and make a treaty with Jacob of mutual combining of the two families and people.
 
TOG said:
When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. (Gen. 32:25 ESV)​

Sounds like a dislocation to me.

The TOG​
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I don't know there old Togger, if it was a true dislocation, he must have been a superman! If is is actually a dislocation, its impossible to stand on that leg, think about it, your bone would come out the side of your hip. Just saying.
 
TOG said:
When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. (Gen. 32:25 ESV)​

Sounds like a dislocation to me.

The TOG​
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Gen 32:25 - And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

Gen 32:32 - Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank.

There are probably several ways to maim "the hollow of the thigh". Chopper seems to have first hand knowledge that a full hip dislocation would not allow for the continuation of the story as written.
 
Chopper said:
Yea, I had thought of that, it was just that I wondered about such a busy time in that city, no one heard her?
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Remember who it was we're talking about. Sometimes it's just not very wise to protest something if you want your head to stay where it is.

The TOG​
 
TOG said:
Remember who it was we're talking about. Sometimes it's just not very wise to protest something if you want your head to stay where it is.

The TOG​
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Yes my friend, I hadn't really thought about that. Shechem was called a prince. He was probably accustomed to getting what he wanted. I may be that Dinah was very impressed with the fact that the prince of the City was paying so much attention to her. And as you point out, she might have been afraid to cry out, she was only a young teenager.
 
Chopper said:
Yes my friend, I hadn't really thought about that. Shechem was called a prince. He was probably accustomed to getting what he wanted. I may be that Dinah was very impressed with the fact that the prince of the City was paying so much attention to her. And as you point out, she might have been afraid to cry out, she was only a young teenager.
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You made me think about when David summoned Bathsheba, could she turn down the King and refuse the summons.
 
Day 82 Monday 7/7/14 Genesis 34:11-24 OUCH.

This account has me baffled, first is the brazen way that Shechem approaches Jacob and his son's. Shechem had just raped Dinah, and he comes to her parents and brothers wanting forgiveness? Boy, am I different from those people. Our times are sure different from those times. If a man raped my daughter, he would have ended up in the hospital! Plus, if I didn't do that, I would have turned him over to the police. If he got just a slap on the wrist? He would have ended up in the hospital.:grumpy

I don't know how much input Jacob had in making the decision to have all the Shechemites circumcised, I have an idea that the brothers of Dinah made the decision because it was deceiving,:mischief not that Jacob was above deceiving people. At any rate, the bargain was that the girls in both camps would inter marry. Now my question about this is, where are all the eligible girls in Jacobs camp? Am I missing something? I thought Dinah was the only female. :confused

I realize that the Law had not come into existence yet, but circumcision was an Abrahamic Covenant, and was to distinguish God's people from all others. It seems out of place to allow the Shechemites into this Covenant, to me. Any thoughts? Apparently, the men in the City of Shechem really loved and respected the decisions of Hamor and son Shechem because they went along with this deception because of future gain for themselves. I'm sure that Shechem painted a rosier picture of the deal than is recorded here in Scripture.

V.24 paints a picture of all the males who, "go out of the gate" of the City, all were circumcised.
 
The church , the assembly of God's people , what ever name we use has always been inclusive. accepting believers out side the natural children of Abe.
examples :
Ruth
Exo 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
Shechemites
Christ shows us this with the woman at the well.
Luke
Job
 
Chopper said:
I don't know how much input Jacob had in making the decision to have all the Shechemites circumcised, I have an idea that the brothers of Dinah made the decision because it was deceiving,:mischief not that Jacob was above deceiving people.
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I think it's already been shown pretty clearly that Jacob wasn't above deceiving people.

Chopper said:
At any rate, the bargain was that the girls in both camps would inter marry. Now my question about this is, where are all the eligible girls in Jacobs camp? Am I missing something? I thought Dinah was the only female. :confused
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I see two possibilities here. They may have been talking about future generations, which would have included many more women, but it could also be (and this is my personal opinion) that Dinah was the only daughter that was mentioned. Jacob could have had other daughters, but because they played no significant part in the story, they aren't mentioned. We see a similar situation with Adam. We are not told the name of a single daughter, but we are told that Cain had a wife and descendants (Gen. 4:17-22). The girls must have been there, and we are told later that Adam " had other sons and daughters" (Gen. 5:4).

Chopper said:
I realize that the Law had not come into existence yet
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I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on that. Just because we don't have a written record of it today doesn't mean that it didn't exist. We see in the story of Cain and Abel that Cain knew what sin was and that murder was wrong. They also offered sacrifices and knew what a proper sacrifice was supposed to look like. Noah knew about clean and unclean animals, and also about sacrifices. In the wife/sister stories, everybody involved knew that adultery was sinful. We will also see later in Genesis that Joseph knew that adultery was wrong and the fact that he was accused of attempted rape shows that everybody knew that it was wrong. Even though we don't have a written account of it today, we can see that there was a moral code as well as laws about rituals such as sacrifices right from the beginning.

Chopper said:
but circumcision was an Abrahamic Covenant, and was to distinguish God's people from all others. It seems out of place to allow the Shechemites into this Covenant, to me.
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I don't think the idea was ever to let them into the covenant, but to deceive them and totally incapacitate them, so they could be slaughtered.

Chopper said:
Any thoughts? Apparently, the men in the City of Shechem really loved and respected the decisions of Hamor and son Shechem because they went along with this deception because of future gain for themselves.
Click to expand...

There was most likely deception on both sides. Jacob was a rich man, and Shechem wanted those riches and was using Dinah to get them.

I'm sure that Shechem painted a rosier picture of the deal than is recorded here in Scripture.

V.24 paints a picture of all the males who, "go out of the gate" of the City, all were circumcised.[/QUOTE]

The TOG​
 
TOG said:
I think it's already been shown pretty clearly that Jacob wasn't above deceiving people.



I see two possibilities here. They may have been talking about future generations, which would have included many more women, but it could also be (and this is my personal opinion) that Dinah was the only daughter that was mentioned. Jacob could have had other daughters, but because they played no significant part in the story, they aren't mentioned. We see a similar situation with Adam. We are not told the name of a single daughter, but we are told that Cain had a wife and descendants (Gen. 4:17-22). The girls must have been there, and we are told later that Adam " had other sons and daughters" (Gen. 5:4).



I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on that. Just because we don't have a written record of it today doesn't mean that it didn't exist. We see in the story of Cain and Abel that Cain knew what sin was and that murder was wrong. They also offered sacrifices and knew what a proper sacrifice was supposed to look like. Noah knew about clean and unclean animals, and also about sacrifices. In the wife/sister stories, everybody involved knew that adultery was sinful. We will also see later in Genesis that Joseph knew that adultery was wrong and the fact that he was accused of attempted rape shows that everybody knew that it was wrong. Even though we don't have a written account of it today, we can see that there was a moral code as well as laws about rituals such as sacrifices right from the beginning.



I don't think the idea was ever to let them into the covenant, but to deceive them and totally incapacitate them, so they could be slaughtered.



There was most likely deception on both sides. Jacob was a rich man, and Shechem wanted those riches and was using Dinah to get them.

I'm sure that Shechem painted a rosier picture of the deal than is recorded here in Scripture.

V.24 paints a picture of all the males who, "go out of the gate" of the City, all were circumcised.
Click to expand...

The TOG​
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the reply TOG. When I mentioned the Law, I was speaking of the Commandments that Moses obtained. I knew of the commands, statues, and rules that the people of God obeyed, or tried too.
 
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