Bible Study WELCOME TO AN IN DEPTH STUDY OF MATTHEW'S GOSPEL.

[jasonc]

the problem with seeing sheol as a purgatory is that it can lead to the argument of it still that way. its possible that up to Christ it was such for the righteous Hebrews that had problems but the problem I have with that is men like david , and Abraham were flawed and god in Hebrews and in his mentionings of them never sees them after their death as that. he says the are alive to him, jesus's words not mine.

 

[Chopper]

Now that you mention Judaism, I think my knowledge came from a Rabbi. Not a modern Rabbi, one from a past few centuries.

 

[jasonc]

Now that you mention Judaism, I think my knowledge came from a Rabbi. Not a modern Rabbi, one from a past few centuries.

old or new rabbi, since the time of Christ the kaddish has been prayed and that has a lot to do with sheol and its purgatory teachings by them. the kaddish predates the Lord's time on the earth. im not saying its right. I considered that its possible prior to the cross that sheol was that way, but the problem is that when I look at the saints of old they weren't perfect and yet god used them. Abraham was imputed righteousness. how could he be in sheol at his death when long after his death God called him his friend?

 

[Chopper]

old or new rabbi, since the time of Christ the kaddish has been prayed and that has a lot to do with sheol and its purgatory teachings by them. the kaddish predates the Lord's time on the earth. im not saying its right. I considered that its possible prior to the cross that sheol was that way, but the problem is that when I look at the saints of old they weren't perfect and yet god used them. Abraham was imputed righteousness. how could he be in sheol at his death when long after his death God called him his friend?

Good point.

 

[jasonc]

Good point.

in the bible and the older teaching of sheol there was two levels of that for the righteous and wicked. some do teach that sheol was for the lost and gan eden for the righteous. gan eden is also known as paradise

 

[Karl]

Hey, if anyone wants to take over the Matthew study, be my guest. It doesn't look like Karl is going to continue. I'm all through.

Wait a minute bro, I would like to resume, ...but I'm kinda gun-shy, paralyzed two times, been to the hospital twice, all in the last 8 weeks, ...it's only been a week that I have been able to walk without limping or the aid of a cane, if this is the enemy attacking or not, what has happened physically to me is the worst I have ever been whacked.

This verse explains the desire of my heart,

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge... Hos 4:6

My heartfelt desire is that my brothers and sisters grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and at the Bema Seat of Christ receive all of the rewards the Lord has for them.

My work load has grown exponentially in the last eight weeks, I now have five apartments and a 2500 sq ft house that have to be completely remodeled, that means stripping floors and walls down to the bare concrete and they need to be finished by June, plus the everyday maintenance of the 78 apartments.

With that in mind I suggest we consider maybe one two studies a week, I also believe in the importance of resuming the Leviticus study, ...I'm certain the enemy doesn't want that!

What do you say we discuss in PM's?

 

[Karl]

how do you come to the conclusion that hell has levels?

Because Jesus said there will be, I can't explain it, I just believe it.

Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city. Mat 10:15

Strong's # G414

anektoteros
an-ek-tot'-er-os
Comparative of a derivative of G430; more endurable: - more tolerable.

Jesus is saying they won't be judges with the same severity, but all will be judged and sent to prison with sentencing like our judicial system, some for a few years and some for life (it's a comparison, not saying some in the final judgement will be set free).

 

[Karl]

in the bible and the older teaching of sheol there was two levels of that for the righteous and wicked. some do teach that sheol was for the lost and gan eden for the righteous. gan eden is also known as paradise

Yes, ...Jesus for one. Luke 16:19-31

 

[jasonc]

Yes, ...Jesus for one. Luke 16:19-31

the parable of the rich man and lazarus is often used for hell, when its imho using the jewish view of sheol on what happens to two men after they die to show a warning. one could use that for the idea of jewish thought as they did teach then that men could rise from sheol to enter into heaven but that is a purgatory deal.

 

[Karl]

Bro, it's not a parable, when Jesus used parables He said in effect, "learn the lesson from the comparison I'm making." Jesus turned to parables for several reasons, one, after the Pharisees accused Him of casting out demons with the power of the devil and second to fulfill the prophecy of Isa 6:9, 10.

Let's read what Jesus said,

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: Luk 16:19

When you read that what is it saying?

There-was-a-certain-rich-man,

Jesus is stating a fact and that is what we would believe from just reading these six words, ...however, if we believe something else, then it's because someone has given us their opinion and we would never see it or interpret their way without them suggesting it.

Notice Jesus didn't allude to or use any comparisons in this story.

We don't need opinions when we have the Holy Spirit teaching us 1 Jn 2:27

I hope that helps.

Blessings

 

[jasonc]

Bro, it's not a parable, when Jesus used parables He said in effect, "learn the lesson from the comparison I'm making." Jesus turned to parables for several reasons, one, after the Pharisees accused Him of casting out demons with the power of the devil and second to fulfill the prophecy of Isa 6:9, 10.

Let's read what Jesus said,

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: Luk 16:19

When you read that what is it saying?

There-was-a-certain-rich-man,

Jesus is stating a fact and that is what we would believe from just reading these six words, ...however, if we believe something else, then it's because someone has given us their opinion and we would never see it or interpret their way without them suggesting it.

Notice Jesus didn't allude to or use any comparisons in this story.

We don't need opinions when we have the Holy Spirit teaching us 1 Jn 2:27

I hope that helps.

Blessings

uhm read up on what the jewish word for a poor man is? LAZARUS. I also suggest that if they knew the man lazarus why then wasn't the rich man named? odd they would know both as well a rabbi would speak at both funerals. the rich man would have to have his land settled to whomever legaly was next in line. don't know how they went about that and also if any was his debtor would have to be settled too. so they would know, since beth din is old and was around that. we call that the sandhedrin then.

 

[Karl]

uhm read up on what the jewish word for a poor man is? LAZARUS. I also suggest that if they knew the man lazarus why then wasn't the rich man named? odd they would know both as well a rabbi would speak at both funerals. the rich man would have to have his land settled to whomever legaly was next in line. don't know how they went about that and also if any was his debtor would have to be settled too. so they would know, since beth din is old and was around that. we call that the sandhedrin then.

You lost me really,

Okay the Hebrew meaning for Lazarus is, God (is) helper Strong's # 499, ummm, didn't God help him?

Who are they? This is bible Study, Scripture please.

Jesus is telling the story Luke 16:20, Lazarus is named because his name is in the Lamb's Book of Life Re 21:27 and the rich man's is not.

Don't know about Jewish funerals or legal dealings, this story is not about that, ...Jesus is telling us what happened in Sheol Luke 16:22.

Edited: forgot this is Bible Study, added Scriptural references

 

[jasonc]

You lost me really,

Okay the Hebrew meaning for Lazarus is, God (is) helper, ummm, didn't God help him?

Who are they?

Jesus is telling the story, Lazarus is named because his name is in the Lamb's Book of Life and the rich man's is not.

Don't know about Jewish funerals or legal dealings, this story is not about that, ...Jesus is telling us what happened in Sheol.

uhm lazarus is the Hebrew word for poor man thou its a name. if he was known there wouldn't be any reason to hide the rich man name. in fact that would make it worse for them as the Pharisees would believe that being rich is a blessing from God and Jesus just showed them its not all the time. they would have to consider the judgement. the context of the parable is in sequence with the idea of what he says to them about them devouring widows homes and the poor. this is where YOU would go into sheol if you were to die. Abrahams bossom isn't even in the bible in the tanach. nor is it taught by the jews in there renderings of sheol.

the jews teach today that one is with God in the garden of eden in even with the tree of life.

 

[Karl]

uhm lazarus is the Hebrew word for poor man thou its a name. if he was known there wouldn't be any reason to hide the rich man name. in fact that would make it worse for them as the Pharisees would believe that being rich is a blessing from God and Jesus just showed them its not all the time. they would have to consider the judgement. the context of the parable is in sequence with the idea of what he says to them about them devouring widows homes and the poor. this is where YOU would go into sheol if you were to die. Abrahams bossom isn't even in the bible in the tanach. nor is it taught by the jews in there renderings of sheol.

the jews teach today that one is with God in the garden of eden in even with the tree of life.

Like I asked in my last post, please give Scriptural references, ...cuz, we all have opinions.

I think I will believe what Paul has written, blindness has come upon Israel Rom 11:25.

Sheol from Strong's Concordance as used and defined in the Old Testament

sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

Hades from Strong's Concordance as used and defined in the New Testament

hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

Notice the King James translates the word sheol and hades as hell in both the Old and New Testaments.

So,

And in hell he (the rich man) lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luke 16:23

Where was Lazarus?

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom... Luk 16:22

If the rich man was in hell and Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom the obvious question is where were they and were they together?

What did Jesus say?

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luk 16:26

If one could go over to another and the other to them (the ones in hell wanting to escape), except there be something stopping them, ...then they must be in the same place.

What do we learn, Jesus taught us there is in Sheol two compartments, one called Abraham's bosom and one called the place of torments, ...He said it, I believe it, that's enough for me.

 

[jasonc]

Like I asked in my last post, please give Scriptural references, ...cuz, we all have opinions.

I think I will believe what Paul has written, blindness has come upon Israel Rom 11:25.

Sheol from Strong's Concordance as used and defined in the Old Testament

sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

Hades from Strong's Concordance as used and defined in the New Testament

hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

Notice the King James translates the word sheol and hades as hell in both the Old and New Testaments.

So,

And in hell he (the rich man) lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luke 16:23

Where was Lazarus?

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom... Luk 16:22

If the rich man was in hell and Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom the obvious question is where were they and were they together?

What did Jesus say?

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luk 16:26

If one could go over to another and the other to them (the ones in hell wanting to escape), except there be something stopping them, ...then they must be in the same place.

What do we learn, Jesus taught us there is in Sheol two compartments, one called Abraham's bosom and one called the place of torments, ...He said it, I believe it, that's enough for me.

one would think that the jews who heard that would know. I can find teachings on gehenna, gan eden that match a lot of what jesus said about to him who overcometh I give the right to sit with me with the in the garden of eden and eat from the tree of life. that is paradise in jewish views.yet nothing on Abrahams bosom.

Abraham said he would die and go to sheol. its recorded. in the tanach.

that isn't hell he is teaching if that was hell then the judgement wouldn't be mentioned as well there wouldn't be any mentioning of going back to the past to reach my brothers to warn them. hell and sheol aren't the same.

 

[Karl]

one would think that the jews who heard that would know. I can find teachings on gehenna, gan eden that match a lot of what jesus said about to him who overcometh I give the right to sit with me with the in the garden of eden and eat from the tree of life. that is paradise in jewish views.yet nothing on Abrahams bosom.

Abraham said he would die and go to sheol. its recorded. in the tanach.

that isn't hell he is teaching if that was hell then the judgement wouldn't be mentioned as well there wouldn't be any mentioning of going back to the past to reach my brothers to warn them. hell and sheol aren't the same.

Again opinions, ...please give us Scriptural reference to verify what you are saying.

 

[jasonc]

Again opinions, ...please give us Scriptural reference to verify what you are saying.

where is Abraham's bosom in the bible prior to luke? not to be found. did john see heaven? where is Abraham then? that is called the position of friendship. jews see Abraham as their dad. if dad loved you like that he would let you lie there. jesus did that to john the apostle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham
if hell is what is jesus is mentioned why does the ylt render it hades? hades is cast into gehenna. so hell is cast into hell?

genesis 37 Jacob believed he would go there at his death.

genesis 15, Abraham told to he would be in sheol with his family. gather with his parents is a saying he would be in the afterlife with them. sheol is taught as a place.

sheol as I said depending on the source you use may have two levels, one for the lost and one for the righteous. as time goes on the bible its later taught gan eden, jesus mentions that to the theif. today you will be with me in paradise.

 

[Karl]

My replies will be in blue to what you have said.

where is Abraham's bosom in the bible prior to luke? not to be found.

First are you implying Luke is not part of the Word?

Second, where was Abraham's bosom prior to Luke? Jesus tells us it's in Sheol, don't make the mistake of trying to assign a time to the story, it could of happened anywhere from the death of Abraham to the day Jesus told the story.


did john see heaven? where is Abraham then? that is called the position of friendship.

Yes John saw Heaven, ...where was Peter, Paul, Stephen, James and all the rest of the Saints that had been martyred, what does that have to do with anything?

jews see Abraham as their dad. if dad loved you like that he would let you lie there.

Abraham is called the father of Israel, but not all of Israel are Abraham's spiritual children Rom 9:6

Lying where and what does Abraham have to do with it"?

jesus did that to john the apostle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham

??????For Biblical Truth I don't rely much on Wikipedia, their sources are questionable.

if hell is what is jesus is mentioned why does the ylt render it hades? hades is cast into gehenna. so hell is cast into hell?

Sheol, Hades,Hell Gehenna are all references to the "holding tank" for those awaiting final judgement. Hell is illuminated Luke 16:23, the Lake of Fire is total darkness Matt 8:12, so yes, Sheol, Hades, Hell, Gehenna will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Strong's #G1067

gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.


genesis 37 Jacob believed he would go there at his death.

And he did, Paul tells us when Jesus left Sheol, Hades, Hell or Gehenna Jesus took him with Him to Heaven Eph 4:8, 9.

genesis 15, Abraham told to he would be in sheol with his family. gather with his parents is a saying he would be in the afterlife with them. sheol is taught as a place.

We agree, Jesus said it was in the center of the Earth. Matt 12:40

sheol as I said depending on the source you use may have two levels, one for the lost and one for the righteous. as time goes on the bible its later taught gan eden, jesus mentions that to the theif. today you will be with me in paradise.

Yep, He was in Paradise with Jesus for three days then Paul tells us when Jesus left Sheol, Hades, Hell or Gehenna He took Paradise and all that were there to Heaven with Him. 2 Cor 2:12-14

 

[jasonc]

My replies will be in blue to what you have said.



Yep, He was in Paradise with Jesus for three days then Paul tells us when Jesus left Sheol, Hades, Hell or Gehenna He took Paradise and all that were there to Heaven with Him. 2 Cor 2:12-14

again sheol to the jews Is what is discussed if the parable is about gehenna there wouldn't be any statement by the rich man saying go and warn my brothers, and Abraham wouldn't have said moses is enough. its also odd to not notice the brothers wouldn't be in torment with him.

so luke 16 is about sheol, not the judgment and cant be use to support gehenna. gehenna is mentioned in the book of revelation and also by jesus in other statements.

 

[Karl]

again sheol to the jews Is what is discussed if the parable is about gehenna

First I'm not a Jew, I'm a born again Gentile and I believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God, both Old and New Testaments, ...something the Jews don't believe.

Second, because of reason number one I believe it's a true story told by Jesus and not a parable.

there wouldn't be any statement by the rich man saying go and warn my brothers, and Abraham wouldn't have said moses is enough.

Why not? We have already shown Sheol, Hades, Hell and Gehenna are all different words for the same place.

its also odd to not notice the brothers wouldn't be in torment with him.

So it they wouldn't be with him in torment, where would they be, ...hint in Abraham bosom with Abraham?

so luke 16 is about sheol, not the judgment

Those in Sheol, Hades, Hell or Gehenna are awaiting final judgement.

and cant be use to support gehenna. gehenna is mentioned in the book of revelation and also by jesus in other statements.


Why not, we have already shown the Bible says Sheol, Hades, Hell are all the same place.

This has evolved into striving over words, something we are told not to do, unless something new is introduced I won't be a part of it.