Bible Study WELCOME TO AN IN DEPTH STUDY OF MATTHEW'S GOSPEL.

[ezrider]

11. For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13. And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of thatsheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. (KJV)

I agree we were all lost and by grace and mercy Jesus wants all saved. Thanks Chopper.

I have no disagreement with what you said Roro1972, and I would typically say the same thing myself. But as I was reading the scripture that Chopper posted, my normal instinct would have been to focus on the one that was lost, but I did not. For some reason as I read it just now I wondered more about the other 99 instead. And in doing so I noticed what appears to be a contradiction to the idea that "all were lost." Only one was lost, but the other 99 did not go astray, they were not lost. So who is the one that was lost? Is not the House of Israel the one that was lost? Who are the other 99 who were not lost?

Just a thought!

 

[Roro1972]

I have no disagreement with what you said Roro1972, and I would typically say the same thing myself. But as I was reading the scripture that Chopper posted, my normal instinct would have been to focus on the one that was lost, but I did not. For some reason as I read it just now I wondered more about the other 99 instead. And in doing so I noticed what appears to be a contradiction to the idea that "all were lost." Only one was lost, but the other 99 did not go astray, they were not lost. So who is the one that was lost? Is not the House of Israel the one that was lost? Who are the other 99 who were not lost?

Just a thought!

Ok Jesus came to save Israel not the gentiles. I did not mean to imply that Gentiles were the 99 or that Gentiles were part of the one lost. Sorry I did that.
Those verses I believe was to show the importance of Israel to Jesus in a way they might understand.

 

[Chopper]

13. And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of thatsheep,than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. (KJV)

In V.13 We have a situation where the shepherd is rejoicing over finding a lost sheep and bringing it back to the fold. In the case of a sheep that wandered away, the shepherd is worried about it's safety and a number of other concerns. As we apply this to humans, especially those who have believed on Jesus Christ for their Salvation, some will wander away from the narrow path.

Whenever I come across a Scripture like this, I think of James 5:19 " Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

Thank God that neither of my two children have ever been lost. I've seen on TV the anguish o parents over one of their children who was missing. There are quite a few wonderful stories of a child being returned to the parents. The great celebration of that family! The other children were just as glad to see their family member returned....This is how I see these Scriptures.

Our Heavenly Father will pull out all the stops to bring to Salvation someone He choses and to bring back a believer who has wandered from the Truth.

Thank you all for your great reply's.

 

[Chopper]

I have no disagreement with what you said Roro1972, and I would typically say the same thing myself. But as I was reading the scripture that Chopper posted, my normal instinct would have been to focus on the one that was lost, but I did not. For some reason as I read it just now I wondered more about the other 99 instead. And in doing so I noticed what appears to be a contradiction to the idea that "all were lost." Only one was lost, but the other 99 did not go astray, they were not lost. So who is the one that was lost? Is not the House of Israel the one that was lost? Who are the other 99 who were not lost?

Just a thought!

Hi there EZ, I think Roro1975 was referring to my statement, "I'm certainly glad that V.11 is in the Scriptures because I certainly was a lost soul waiting to be found by the Master Jesus" I believe he was just pointing out that we're all lost.

 

[Roro1972]

13. And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of thatsheep,than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. (KJV)

In V.13 We have a situation where the shepherd is rejoicing over finding a lost sheep and bringing it back to the fold. In the case of a sheep that wandered away, the shepherd is worried about it's safety and a number of other concerns. As we apply this to humans, especially those who have believed on Jesus Christ for their Salvation, some will wander away from the narrow path.

Whenever I come across a Scripture like this, I think of James 5:19 " Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

Thank God that neither of my two children have ever been lost. I've seen on TV the anguish o parents over one of their children who was missing. There are quite a few wonderful stories of a child being returned to the parents. The great celebration of that family! The other children were just as glad to see their family member returned....This is how I see these Scriptures.

Our Heavenly Father will pull out all the stops to bring to Salvation someone He choses and to bring back a believer who has wandered from the Truth.

Thank you all for your great reply's.

Chopper and these verses reminds me of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15

 

[Roro1972]

I have no disagreement with what you said Roro1972, and I would typically say the same thing myself. But as I was reading the scripture that Chopper posted, my normal instinct would have been to focus on the one that was lost, but I did not. For some reason as I read it just now I wondered more about the other 99 instead. And in doing so I noticed what appears to be a contradiction to the idea that "all were lost." Only one was lost, but the other 99 did not go astray, they were not lost. So who is the one that was lost? Is not the House of Israel the one that was lost? Who are the other 99 who were not lost?

Just a thought!

Ezrider; I have been thinking about the 99 and i think the number 99 was an arbitrary number Jesus used, the 99 as it were refers to the ones of Israel that were not lost possibly.

 

[ezrider]

Hi there EZ, I think Roro1975 was referring to my statement, "I'm certainly glad that V.11 is in the Scriptures because I certainly was a lost soul waiting to be found by the Master Jesus" I believe he was just pointing out that we're all lost.

Ezrider; I have been thinking about the 99 and i think the number 99 was an arbitrary number Jesus used, the 99 as it were refers to the ones of Israel that were not lost possibly.

Chopper, Roro, Thank you for your replies. Please don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to make a big deal of this, just pointing out something that stood out to me being that only one was lost, but the rest weren't considered lost. I would agree that the number 99 is not really significant unless we were to interpret this a percentage instead, but I think the number 1 stands alone by itself.

So if Jesus came to save those who were lost (Matt 10:6, Matt 15:24, Matt 18:11), who were those who were not lost and gone astray? Were the Gentiles ever considered lost?

Maybe the more important question we should ask ourselves is what caused them to become lost in the first place?


Jeremiah 50:5-6
They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying,
Come, and let us join ourselves to the Lord
in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.
My people hath been lost sheep:
their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains:
they have gone from mountain to hill,
they have forgotten their restingplace.


What is the way to Zion?

 

[Roro1972]

Chopper, Roro, Thank you for your replies. Please don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to make a big deal of this, just pointing out something that stood out to me being that only one was lost, but the rest weren't considered lost. I would agree that the number 99 is not really significant unless we were to interpret this a percentage instead, but I think the number 1 stands alone by itself.

So if Jesus came to save those who were lost (Matt 10:6, Matt 15:24, Matt 18:11), who were those who were not lost and gone astray? Were the Gentiles ever considered lost?

Maybe the more important question we should ask ourselves is what caused them to become lost in the first place?


Jeremiah 50:5-6
They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying,
Come, and let us join ourselves to the Lord
in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.
My people hath been lost sheep:
their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains:
they have gone from mountain to hill,
they have forgotten their restingplace.


What is the way to Zion?

I may be getting a reputation for being wrong around here and if this is the case here just let me know so I learn.
ok so we both think the number (99) was arbitrary, not really important in the parable. Like I said even though the important message was the one lost had great value because it symbolized a human, and more specific an Israelite Gods chosen people. imo if the 99 had any significance it would be some ( when I say some I do not mean 99 ) of Israel were saved and if so only by faith.
Jesus came to save the lost sheep which I see as Israel. and he knew they would reject his teachings. and he knew he was going to train Paul to teach the Gentiles.
Now I think lsot persons started with Eve and Adam afterwards they were kicked out of the garden and the ground was cursed.
I

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think the section can be summarized as follows (all references from the NASB):

"whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me" vs.5
"whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." vs.6
"See that you do not despise one of these little ones" vs.10
"If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying?" vs.12
"it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish." vs.14

Little ones mean a lot to the Father. To receive a little one for the sake of Christ is to receive Christ himself. Don't despise them. And don't cause them to stumble. The Father loves them so much he'll go to great lengths to retrieve those who have been led astray. Those who lead them astray are in a heap of trouble with the Father who loves them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me" (Matthew 18:5 NASB)

When you care about a little one it's like caring for Christ himself. Which reminds me of this:

"34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’" (Matthew 25:34-40 NASB italics in original, bold mine)

And when you don't care about a little one it's like not caring for Christ himself:

‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ (Matthew 18:45 NASB)

 

[GodsGrace]

Chopper, Roro, Thank you for your replies. Please don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to make a big deal of this, just pointing out something that stood out to me being that only one was lost, but the rest weren't considered lost. I would agree that the number 99 is not really significant unless we were to interpret this a percentage instead, but I think the number 1 stands alone by itself.

So if Jesus came to save those who were lost (Matt 10:6, Matt 15:24, Matt 18:11), who were those who were not lost and gone astray? Were the Gentiles ever considered lost?

Maybe the more important question we should ask ourselves is what caused them to become lost in the first place?

Jeremiah 50:5-6
They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying,
Come, and let us join ourselves to the Lord
in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.
My people hath been lost sheep:
their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains:
they have gone from mountain to hill,
they have forgotten their restingplace.

What is the way to Zion?

Hi EZRider

You ask some good questions.

Were the gentiles ever considered lost?
Yes. They were not a monotheistic society. They believed in many gods and not the one true God which Jesus came to reveal to us. They were considered pagans - outside of the Hebrew religion or maybe not believing in any religion or any God at all. I believe these were the people described in Romans 1:22-25 NAS. Gentiles was anyone that was not Jewish.

The Samaritans, also, were hated for almost the same reason. When Israel was split into two kingdoms about 1,000 years BC, they eventually refused to adhere to Judaism and the authority of Jerusalem. They had intermarried with the Assyrians and adopted their practices. Hence, Jesus used a Samaritan to save the man travelling to Jericho and fallen to robbers in Luke 10:30-37 to show that even the lost Samaritans needed a Savior.

Another group of lost people were the authority presiding over Israel at the time of Jesus. He was very mad at the Pharisees and others in the legal institution of the Sanhedrin. In Mathew 23:13 we read of the seven woes where Jesus rebukes scribes and Pharisees. Jesus said that they were far from God and kept others far from God. The poor people of Israel who were not taught properly by their elders. Poor in spirit because they were not taught properly and were left to themselves. Poor in spirit - not necessarily lost. But the scribes and pharisees did not keep their responsibility to the people.

Who were those who were not lost?
All those persons such as in Hebrews 11:1-13
All those who had instinctually knew and believed in God, as also in the beginning of Romans 1:19-20
And also all those from Adam, Abraham, etc who believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Joseph.
All those who had a simple and natural faith in God in Jesus' time.
And, naturally, all those who did believe in the Messiah Jesus.

Why did they become lost?
Your answer is perfect. Jeremiah 50:5-6
They were led astray. By others, such as the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Greek influence.
By their own sometimes, such as Solomon in his old age and his son Rehoboam.
People get lost because they go off the right road. Israel had been without a prophet for about 400 years when Jesus was born.

What is the way to Zion?
"I am the way"
John 14:6

I like that. Jesus didn't say "I'll SHOW you the way" He said " I AM the way."
Which is why we are saved if we are "IN CHRIST."

Wondering

 

[ezrider]

Hi EZRider

You ask some good questions.

Were the gentiles ever considered lost?
Yes. They were not a monotheistic society. They believed in many gods and not the one true God which Jesus came to reveal to us. They were considered pagans - outside of the Hebrew religion or maybe not believing in any religion or any God at all. I believe these were the people described in Romans 1:22-25 NAS. Gentiles was anyone that was not Jewish.

Thank you for your response. You believe that the Gentiles were lost as well, and I would agree that is a commonly held belief, but I disagree with that answer. I would say they were not lost. In your reasoning behind your answer you said it was because they believed in many gods and not the one true God. But how could you consider the Gentiles as lost for this reason if they were following what was given unto them.

Deuteronomy 4:19-20
And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. But the Lord hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Also, and it might just be a common assumption, but just because they worshiped many gods does not mean that they did not worship the one true God as well. Remember that Jesus said he had sheep of a another flock; he never said that flock was lost, only that his sheep would hear his voice.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Another group of lost people were the authority presiding over Israel at the time of Jesus. He was very mad at the Pharisees and others in the legal institution of the Sanhedrin. In Mathew 23:13 we read of the seven woes where Jesus rebukes scribes and Pharisees. Jesus said that they were far from God and kept others far from God. The poor people of Israel who were not taught properly by their elders. Poor in spirit because they were not taught properly and were left to themselves. Poor in spirit - not necessarily lost. But the scribes and pharisees did not keep their responsibility to the people.

Why did they become lost?
Your answer is perfect. Jeremiah 50:5-6
They were led astray. By others, such as the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Greek influence.

They had already been led astray before Moses even came down from the mountain with the stone tablets. So why say they were led astray by others such as the Babylonian and the Assyrian influence because the Lord delivered them into it. Your previous statement concerning the Pharisees is the correct answer to Jeremiah 50:5-6. Those that sit in the seat of Moses. They become lost under the curse of the law.

What is the way to Zion?
"I am the way"
John 14:6

I like that. Jesus didn't say "I'll SHOW you the way" He said " I AM the way."
Which is why we are saved if we are "IN CHRIST."

:amen

 

[ezrider]

Who is the lost, and what does it mean to be lost? Consider the first man Adam. Was Adam lost? No, he had hid himself from the presence of Lord. But because Adam had hid himself from the presence of the Lord, so the Lord went looking for him. To the shepherd Adam was lost, but not because he wandered of the path, but because he hid himself from the presence of the Lord.

Genesis 3:8-9
And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Why did Adam hide himself from the presence of the Lord? Because he gained knowledge of his transgression by eating of the fruit of the Law, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Israel likewise in the wilderness turned from the presence of the Lord and instead promised by covenant to do all that Moses commanded them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you for your response. You believe that the Gentiles were lost as well, and I would agree that is a commonly held belief, but I disagree with that answer. I would say they were not lost. In your reasoning behind your answer you said it was because they believed in many gods and not the one true God. But how could you consider the Gentiles as lost for this reason if they were following what was given unto them.

Deuteronomy 4:19-20
And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. But the Lord hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Also, and it might just be a common assumption, but just because they worshiped many gods does not mean that they did not worship the one true God as well. Remember that Jesus said he had sheep of a another flock; he never said that flock was lost, only that his sheep would hear his voice.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The sheep in John 10:16 are the gentiles. Jesus was to fulfill the New Covenant. The Davidic Covenant was for the Jews. The New Covenant is for the whole world. So the sheep NOT of this fold just means everyone who is willing to hear and listen to Jesus voice - not just the Jews.

If you're serving many gods, you can't also be serving the One True God. God is a jealous God. Think of the 1st Commandment. We can't know who of the gentiles were saved. Romans 1:17-20 NAS says that from the beginning of time man could have known God through creation. In fact, in verse 16 Paul says that the gospel has the power to save everyone, Jew and Gentile. So it's not for us to know who was saved, but certainly the Jews saw the gentiles as being unsaved and not respecting the true God.

They had already been led astray before Moses even came down from the mountain with the stone tablets. So why say they were led astray by others such as the Babylonian and the Assyrian influence because the Lord delivered them into it. Your previous statement concerning the Pharisees is the correct answer to Jeremiah 50:5-6. Those that sit in the seat of Moses. They become lost under the curse of the law.

When the Hebrews were taken captive by either/or the Assyrians and the Babylonians it caused many of them to be lost, as they understood lost to be. So, yes, I can say that they were led astray by the Babylonians and the Assyrians. It was the Hebrews who made a conscious decision to follow their god and their way of life which was different from what God, Yahweh, had taught them. (not all, of course, there always remained a remnant).

Moses and the curse of the Law and how they had already been led astray is different for me. In this case the freed slaves were led astray because they followed their own inclinations and had not even been given the Law yet. They'd been in slavery for about 400 years (not quite) and didn't even know anymore HOW to live properly and for God.

Today many are led astray. There are no freed slaves, or Babylonians or Assyrians today. But people have always been led astray. But your question (rhetoricle I'm sure) was referring to the gentiles and the people of that time so that's what I was answering to.

Also, ezrider, you say:

But how could you consider the Gentiles as lost for this reason if they were following what was given unto them.

As far as the above, I couldn't agree with you more. We will all be judged by the light we have received. I answered to this above - each individual gentile of that time will be judged righteously by God. I'd say that the Hebrews saw them as very lost, and probably most of them were. The Hebrews had the true God revealed to them. God chose them. They saw the real light and so it became easy for them to see the darkness.

I'd just like to remind us that when Joshua went into Jericho, he enountered gentiles: Heathen people who were not Hebrew. God commanded him to exterminate them! So, yes, they certainly were not seen as God-fearing people.

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They become lost under the curse of the law.

Curse of sin. The law is holy, righteous, and good.

"...sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin..." (Romans 7:13 NASB)

The law is only a curse in that it exposes and magnifies mankind's sin. It's what the law does to man that is the curse. Jesus took that curse prescribed by the law (death, sickness, etc.) upon himself. Don't confuse the curse that the law assigns to man with the law itself.

 

[eddif]

Hebrews 6:3 KJV
And this we will do, if God permits.
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put himto an open shame.

To understand the controversy over verse 11 you just about have to go to the verses above. Some will think I have lost it.

Jesus did have other flocks, but the shepherd had not been assigned / accepted by those flocks. Gentile inclusion would occur in the future.

Since Jesus was sent to the lost tribes of Israel he could not say verse 11. Saying 11 would exclude the future Gentile inclusion. His death on the cross would work for Jew and Gentile alike.

It is so hard to understand how Jesus could call the gentile lady a dog and then turn around and deal with her faith. The verses above show how faith is counted for righteousness. The Gentiles had not:
Repented
Received Jesus as Lord
Received the Holy Spirit

(Really neither had the Jews at the Matthew passage - the cross, resurrection, assention, Pentecost had not happened).

So any one starting at born again (child) can: Repent, accept Jesus, receive Holy Spirit; and thus be a member of the One New Man flock. In this status we today can see the danger of wandering away from the Lord and back to the law (repentance works).
Thus
If a person is wandering (not devoured yet) you resist the circumcism party, and restore the sheep.

Of course my part of Mississippi don't have many sheep (that I know of). It does have an active circumcism party.

eddif

 

[eddif]

I suppose this may help.
Ephesians 2:11
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

A coin is lost if it was once in your possession.

A sheep is lost if it was once in your possession.

Gentiles were once without God. Oh, I love Isaiah 19 and the hints of Egypt being saved (1/3 part with Israel), that was prophecy; and depended on the shed blood of Jesus. Was it a done deal? Yes. Had it happened yet in the now? No. I love the difference in the way God thinks.

eddif

 

[Chopper]

January 24th Matthew 18:15-17 A sinning Brother.

We are entering a very important sets of instruction from Jesus the Son of God, the head of His Church. These rules set down by the Head of our Church is there for a reason. O if our Churches would only take these things to heart and begin to practice these rules again. These were not only for that first Century Church, they are for us today. Praise our Lord and the Pastor's who do keep and practice these church rules.

Matthew 18:15 "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother"......How many Christians do this? Better yet, how many Churches would be willing to practice this. I imagine a lot of churches have never even heard of this done. Is this a lost discipline?

We all have heard of someone who have had someone sin against them, but rather in private seek the person out and confront him/her and resolve the matter, they would rather broadcast their hurt for various reasons. Now we have two sinners. Folk sometimes are afraid to confront another person over a sin because they either can't control their emotions or they think the sinning person will be angry and worry that matters will get much worse.

The body of believers in each church should make up a governing body that could settle disputes like this, or settle law suits (1 Corinthians 6:1-8) In certain cases, the board of Elders or Deacons can function in this manner. The best scenario is when the sinning brother realizes his sin and repents. That means friendship is restored.

18:16 "But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established"......Unfortunately this happens all to much. Many who sin against another say they have a reason. O boy, he said she said. Now you've got a real battle on your hands. Again, if you can get these two together, the board of Elders or Deacons will have to decide.
Notice we only need two or three witnesses to secure a verdict. What exactly do you think that means?

18:17 "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican"......Now the church body comes in. This is when only the active membership is called in to make a decision. This is not done on a Sunday. Sunday is our day of rest and this kind of matter can frustrate and exhaust even the best of us.

Hopefully, both parties will arrive at a good loving conclusion. If the body of believers making the decision remember that the Head of the Church, Jesus the Son of God is present, a seriousness should take place. I say should take place! If a solution can't be arrived at
1Corinthians 5:4 "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Matters like this are never easy because we have an enemy to good and orderly solving of disputes between believers. Satan just loves to create confusion and tempers flaring, name calling and just a plain old mess. That's why many churches don't follow thru the way these verses instruct.

I left the full time pastorate in 1989 to care for my Wife who was dying of cancer. We used to practice this line of discipline and many of the Pastors I fellowshipped with did the same. Either I'm ignorant of other churches these day or many don't follow these Scriptures. Any experience with any of you?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Great passage of scripture. Notice Jesus' pre-Resurrection/ pre-Day of Pentecost use of the word 'church' in verse 17 .

Jesus' words sure seem to contradict a church so dead set on 'not judging'. When people start playing the 'don't judge' card I like to refer them to Jesus' counsel to let the person who rejects reconciliation and acknowledgement of sin "be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector" (vs. 17). If that isn't judging, what is? Does that mean we hate that person and treat them badly? Of course not. It means we are to 'judge' them as potentially not being a brother or sister. We treat them as we would treat those outside of the body of believers. That means we don't embrace them in brotherly fellowship, discussion, or prayer.

He's showing us that a sign of a true fellow believer is their desire for reconciliation. Believers are peace makers who long for peace and reconciliation with their fellow parts of the body. By the nature of the Spirit within them the believer ultimately does not settle for the hardened walls of strife and division with others in the church and other believers who we have hurt, or been hurt by. The person who lacks the desire for reconciliation with believers and rejects it is demonstrating that he is probably outside of the body of believers. Treat him as such, says Jesus.

I've only been in one church that I know of where the pastor practiced this kind of hard line discipline for church relationships fractured by sin. It did not destroy the church. It thrived. What it did do was keep satan's tentacles from having easy access to the body. I'm all for that. But it's amazing how many people think it's the right thing to let potentially troublesome, actively sinning unbelievers join the church in the hope they'll get saved. Jude points out that it is the one's without the Spirit that lead the church into divisions (Jude 1:19 NASB). Their unrepentant, troublesome sin, and their lack of desire for peace and reconciliation with the body being the very sign that they don't have the Spirit! Paul goes so far as to say, quoting the OT, "Expel the wicked man from among you!" (1 Corinthians 5:13 NIV).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Either I'm ignorant of other churches these day or many don't follow these Scriptures. Any experience with any of you?

In the present attitude of building great numbers in the church these days, apparently this is the rationale pastors are using to let sinning, hurtful church attendees remain in the church to keep numbers big:

"8“Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ 10“Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests." (Matthew 22:8-10 NASB bold mine)

Is Jesus saying we are to open the arms of fellowship to the very people he says we are to distance ourselves from? That doesn't make sense. I think what he's saying is that inevitably there are going to be both good and evil people brought into and comprising the church on the Day of the Great Banquet. The bad will be revealed as such on that Day. He's not saying that we should purposely bring those bad people into the church.