Were the disciples born-again?

[farouk]

^<<<<<<<<<<Saved by faith by what was
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Saved by faith to what>>>>>
was to come

Let's not be confused there was any difference between pre-Jesus believers and post-Jesus believers. Born again and being in dwelt with the Holy Spirit was not a new church phenomenon. I would like this Holy Spirit some days: Judges 14:19 "Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily, and he went down to Ashkelon and killed thirty of them and took their spoil and gave the changes of clothes to those who told the riddle. And his anger burned, and he went up to his father’s house."

Seems like Samson had a pretty good does of the Spirit there?

R: Actually, the Holy Spirit did not abide with believers, before Pentecost.

 

[Ryan]

Draw a cross. On the top of the page on the right side of the cross, draw an arrow pointing to the cross with the words "Saved by faith by what was"

On the bottom of the cross and with an arrow pointed to the cross write "Saved by faith by what was to come"

What I'm saying being born again and circumcision of the heart was never a New Testament idea. Neither was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Judges 14:19 "Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily, and he went down to Ashkelon and killed thirty of them and took their spoil and gave the changes of clothes to those who told the riddle. And his anger burned, and he went up to his father’s house." Seems like Samson got a pretty good does there.

Seems like Samson had a pretty good dose of it here.

 

[Ryan]

R: Actually, the Holy Spirit did not abide with believers, before Pentecost.

Exodus 28:3 Exodus 31:3 Exodus 35:31 numbers 11:17 Numbers 11:25 Numbers 11:29 Numbers 24:2 Deuteronomy 34:9

I could go on and on.

 

[farouk]

Draw a cross. On the top of the page on the right side of the cross, draw an arrow pointing to the cross with the words "Saved by faith by what was"

On the bottom of the cross and with an arrow pointed to the cross write "Saved by faith by what was to come"

What I'm saying being born again and circumcision of the heart was never a New Testament idea. Neither was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Judges 14:19 "Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily, and he went down to Ashkelon and killed thirty of them and took their spoil and gave the changes of clothes to those who told the riddle. And his anger burned, and he went up to his father’s house." Seems like Samson got a pretty good does there.

Seems like Samson had a pretty good dose of it here.

R: But I was referring to the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit after Pentecost, the coming of Whom was linked with the Lord Jesus' Ascension: John 16.7.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Exodus 28:3 Exodus 31:3 Exodus 35:31 numbers 11:17 Numbers 11:25 Numbers 11:29 Numbers 24:2 Deuteronomy 34:9

I could go on and on.

I think Farouk meant "in" as opposed to "with," and he is absolutely correct in that statement. The Spirit acted on, but not within, the believer prior to Pentecost.

 

[Ryan]

I think Farouk meant "in" as opposed to "with," and he is absolutely correct in that statement. The Spirit acted on, but not within, the believer prior to Pentecost.

Ezekiel 3:24 "The Spirit then entered me and made me stand on my feet, and He spoke with me and said to me, “Go, shut yourself up in your house."

 

[farouk]

Ezekiel 3:24 "The Spirit then entered me and made me stand on my feet, and He spoke with me and said to me, “Go, shut yourself up in your house."

R: ...but this is not the New Birth as defined by the Lord Jesus in John 3.

As a dispensationalist, I know that those who strongly favor a Reformed view of the covenants (and I don't want to put words in your mouth) sometimes seek to minimize the differences between the Old and New Testaments. Be this as it may, Pentecost was indeed a seminal event, when the Holy Spirit came to abide with and indwell the church permanently. Believers today do not need to pray as David did, 'and take not Thy Holy Spirit from me' Psalm 51.11).

 

[Ryan]

R: ...but this is not the New Birth as defined by the Lord Jesus in John 3.

As a dispensationalist, I know that those who strongly favor a Reformed view of the covenants (and I don't want to put words in your mouth) sometimes seek to minimize the differences between the Old and New Testaments. Be this as it may, Pentecost was indeed a seminal event, when the Holy Spirit came to abide with and indwell the church permanently. Believers today do not need to pray as David did, 'and take not Thy Holy Spirit from me' Psalm 51.11).

Being born again and the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in a believer was always the same. John 3 is not a new idea. Deuteronomy 10:16 "So circumcise your heart, and <SUP class=crossreference value='(AA)'></SUP>stiffen your neck no longer."

 

[farouk]

Being born again and the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in a believer was always the same. John 3 is not a new idea. Deuteronomy 10:16 "So circumcise your heart, and <SUP class=crossreference value='(AA)'></SUP>stiffen your neck no longer."

This is theologically incorrect. As already stated via a number of Scripture verses, the Holy Spirit did not abide within the faithful of Israel in the same way as He abides with the church. This brings us to another point: the church (heavenly New Testament people) and Israel (an earthly people) are distinct. (These are dispensational first principles.)

 

[Ryan]

This is theologically incorrect. As already stated via a number of Scripture verses, the Holy Spirit did not abide within the faithful of Israel in the same way as He abides with the church. This brings us to another point: the church (heavenly New Testament people) and Israel (an earthly people) are distinct. (These are dispensational first principles.)

Don't you think that is slightly arrogant to believe that God's choosen people, who he commanded them to be a light unto the nations, wouldn't give them all the necessary spiritual tools to be successful?

What does Romans 11 say in verse 18? "do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that <SUP class=crossreference value='(AD)'></SUP>it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you."

However, I feel you have a completely different understanding and interpretation of Romans 11, so maybe this point is fruitless.

 

[Ryan]

the Holy Spirit did not abide within the faithful of Israel in the same way as He abides with the church.

I'm looking forward for you to point me to that verse that says this was so.

 

[farouk]

R: I already referred to Psalm 51.11 and John 16.7.

I don't take personal offence at your accusation of arrogance, but we do agree I think that you and I have rather different theology. I happen to be dispensational, as are many North American Christians from independent, Baptist and other churches. You are probably Reformed of one variety or another; I don't know. We are therefore likely to be talking at times at cross-purposes.

Blessings.

 

[Ryan]

R: I already referred to Psalm 51.11 and John 16.7.

I don't take personal offence at your accusation of arrogance, but we do agree I think that you and I have rather different theology. I happen to be dispensational, as are many North American Christians from independent, Baptist and other churches. You are probably Reformed of one variety or another; I don't know. We are therefore likely to be talking at times at cross-purposes.

Blessings.

Yes, I'm talking hockey when you're talking football. Maybe one day, we will speak the same sport. Don't look at that analogy to deeply though, I believe Jesus unites us one way or another.

God bless and shalom - hint hint <HINT p hint<>