What About Those In Non-Christian Lands Who Have Never Heard The Gospel?

[JAG ..]

Hi JAG ..


I think Jesus was pretty clear that the majority of those who have ever lived will not receive God's promise of eternal life with him.

But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

That up there is just another way of saying that on your
interpretation of what the Lord Jesus said about the
generation that lived in the first century -- also applies
to ALL future generations in all of human history.

So on your interpretation of the New Testament and
what Jesus said, we end up with the kind of God that
knew BEFORE He created the human race that the
majority was going to end up screaming in eternal.
Hell forever and ever and ever with NEVER an end
to their agony, and by the way let me tell you that
"God is love."

On your personal interpretation of what Jesus said, that
means that worldwide -- history wide, there are TENS OF
BILLIONS of humans that will scream in agony forever and
ever and ever in eternal Helll -- and again God knew all that
BEFORE He created man -- but went ahead and created man
anyway and let me tell you again that "God is love."

The Christian Church is even now starting to abandon such as
that up there. Believing that up there is NOT required in order
to be a Bible believing orthodox Christian. And its a monstrous
wrong doctrine because of the way it presents the character of
God.

__________________


But . . .

I do understand fully how you feel. In your mind you see it as standing
true to the Bible. And you would feel guilty of becoming a compromiser
if you did not continue to hold your present position. This means that if
you are locked down on your position, then there is no help for ,you.

If on the other hand you are open to this:
■ You can be a 100% true blue Bible believing Christian
and at the same time
■ Get rid of the notion that the majority of the human race is going
to scream in eternal Hell forever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

________________


I am going to post this below just in case you are open minded to
something better:

An Ugly Hideous Monstrous Interpretation Of Matthew 7:13-14
By JAG

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that
leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and
narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."


Humans put forth their own interpretation of Matthew 7:13-14 and their own
interpretation has consequences. Their own interpretation of Matthew 7:13-14
also tells us what they think God is like in His nature. The interpretation of
Matthew 7:13-14 presented by the three schools of Pessimistic Eschatology.
which are {1) Amillennialism (2) Premillennialism (3) Dispensationalism present
God as deliberately choosing to create a race of untold billions of His human
creatures knowing BEFORE He chose to create them that the majority of them
would spend an eternity screaming in agony in the pits of eternal Hell. And many
of these folks tell us not only will the majority of God's human creatures scream in Hell
for all eternity, but it will be the overwhelming vast majority that scream in agony in
Hell for all eternity. Then in the next breath they tell us that God is LOVE and full of
kindness and compassion.

My view is that their free-will-chosen interpretation of Matthew 7:13-14 is wrong. It's
not right to do that. It's not a good thing to do that. It's a bad thing to interpret
Matthew 7:13-14 in such a way that portrays God as the kind of Being that
would create untold billions of human beings knowing BEFORE He created them that
the majority would end up screaming in agony in Hell for all eternity, but then knowing
that, went ahead and created them anyway, but this is exactly and precisely what their
interpretation of Matthew 7:13-14 means and they cannot escape from this their
portrayal of the nature of God. Their interpretation of Matthew 7:13-14 tells you,
that on their interpretation of Matthew 7:13-14, God has done exactly that and
that God is the kind of Being who would do that and that He actually has done that.

What is the solution to this? There is an alternative interpretation of Matthew
7:13-14 that is reasonable and it says Matthew 7:13-14 describes ONLY the very bad
spiritual conditions of the 1st century when Jesus spoke the words of Matthew 7:13-14
in that 1st century generation of Jews who ended up rejecting Him as their Savior and
ultimately murdered the innocent Lord Jesus. Indeed only a relatively few in that 1st
century generation, did find the Lord Jesus as their Savior. But that 1st century generation
is NOT representative of the entire human race and all future human generations, and
there is NOT a single Bible verse that says it is. So? So you don't have to believe that
it is representative. You can use your free will to choose NOT to believe that it is
representative of the entire human race. And in fact it is NOT representative of the
entire human race and all future generations.


So?

So the three schools of Pessimistic Eschatology {1) Amillennialism (2) Premillennialism
(3) Dispensationalism do NOT have to interpret Matthew7:13-14 as being historically
predictive of the future of the human race. They use their free will to choose to interpret
Matthew 7:13-14 that way ~~ and it's wrong to do that. It's not right. It's not a good
thing to do, to interpret Matthew 7:13-14 in such as way that presents God as being
the kind of Being that creates untold billions of human beings knowing BEFORE He
created them, that the majority of them would end up screaming in agony in Hell for
all eternity.

__________________

If you are interested I have another article titled
"Will Only A Few Be Saved? No A Great Multitude Will Be Saved."
Let me know if you are interested and I'll post it.

Best

JAG

[]

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi Jethro Bodine

That's right. But that's not God's fault and God has established 'how' any man may be saved. Again I remind you of the words of Jesus.


Is it your understanding that all of the 'many' that Jesus speaks of, just before he tells us of these 'few', heard the gospel but rejected it? What if a lot of those never heard the gospel because we didn't do our part? What if a lot of those who are doomed to eternal separation from God wind up that way because their parents and their parents didn't do their part. What about all of the Gentiles who died even as Paul and the first apostles were just beginning to spread the gospel. I mean, I don't think it's like Jesus died, was resurrected and suddenly everyone in the world in that day 'knew' the gospel. No. The gospel had to be spread and unfortunately it didn't just happen overnight the day after Jesus' resurrection.

So, I'm just saying that there are a lot of reasons that someone dies without ever hearing the good news of His forgiveness and salvation. But according to the Scriptures: No one comes to the Father, but through the Son. According to the Scriptures 'many' will be lost and 'few' will find His salvation. Me, I agree that I'm not God. I'm not sure that God equates 'fairness' in the same way that I might consider 'fairness'. But what I do know is that God is just and merciful. But I also know that His testimony doesn't really give any sign of hope to us for those who have never heard of Him. Which is why the question is even coming up in the first place.

Lastly, is God a liar? He has declared that He has made it plain to all mankind that He does exist. That none of us have an excuse. I don't think He's referring to just people who have heard the gospel and rejected it.

God bless,
Ted

Then who is this person in Romans 2:14-16 who has no knowledge of the gospel promise given to Abraham, no knowledge of the law, and no knowledge of Jesus, but who, nonetheless, will be acquitted at the return of Christ?

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.

14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them 16on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus,b as proclaimed by my gospel. Romans 2:12-16

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That up there is just another way of saying that on your
interpretation of what the Lord Jesus said about the
generation that lived in the first century -- also applies
to ALL future generations in all of human history.

So on your interpretation of the New Testament and
what Jesus said, we end up with the kind of God that
knew BEFORE He created the human race that the
majority was going to end up screaming in eternal.
Hell forever and ever and ever with NEVER an end
to their agony, and by the way let me tell you that
"God is love."

On your personal interpretation of what Jesus said, that
means that worldwide -- history wide, there are TENS OF
BILLIONS of humans that will scream in agony forever and
ever and ever in eternal Helll -- and again God knew all that
BEFORE He created man -- but went ahead and created man
anyway and let me tell you again that "God is love."

The Christian Church is even now starting to abandon such as
that up there. Believing that up there is NOT required in order
to be a Bible believing orthodox Christian. And its a monstrous
wrong doctrine because of the way it presents the character of
God.

__________________


But . . .

I do understand fully how you feel. In your mind you see it as standing
true to the Bible. And you would feel guilty of becoming a compromiser
if you did not continue to hold your present position. This means that if
you are locked down on your position, then there is no help for ,you.

If on the other hand you are open to this:
■ You can be a 100% true blue Bible believing Christian
and at the same time
■ Get rid of the notion that the majority of the human race is going
to scream in eternal Hell forever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

________________


I am going to post this below just in case you are open minded to
something better:

An Ugly Hideous Monstrous Interpretation Of Matthew 7:13-14
By JAG

Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that
leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and
narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."


Humans put forth their own interpretation of Matthew 7:13-14 and their own
interpretation has consequences. Their own interpretation of Matthew 7:13-14
also tells us what they think God is like in His nature. The interpretation of
Matthew 7:13-14 presented by the three schools of Pessimistic Eschatology.
which are {1) Amillennialism (2) Premillennialism (3) Dispensationalism present
God as deliberately choosing to create a race of untold billions of His human
creatures knowing BEFORE He chose to create them that the majority of them
would spend an eternity screaming in agony in the pits of eternal Hell. And many
of these folks tell us not only will the majority of God's human creatures scream in Hell
for all eternity, but it will be the overwhelming vast majority that scream in agony in
Hell for all eternity. Then in the next breath they tell us that God is LOVE and full of
kindness and compassion.

My view is that their free-will-chosen interpretation of Matthew 7:13-14 is wrong. It's
not right to do that. It's not a good thing to do that. It's a bad thing to interpret
Matthew 7:13-14 in such a way that portrays God as the kind of Being that
would create untold billions of human beings knowing BEFORE He created them that
the majority would end up screaming in agony in Hell for all eternity, but then knowing
that, went ahead and created them anyway, but this is exactly and precisely what their
interpretation of Matthew 7:13-14 means and they cannot escape from this their
portrayal of the nature of God. Their interpretation of Matthew 7:13-14 tells you,
that on their interpretation of Matthew 7:13-14, God has done exactly that and
that God is the kind of Being who would do that and that He actually has done that.

What is the solution to this? There is an alternative interpretation of Matthew
7:13-14 that is reasonable and it says Matthew 7:13-14 describes ONLY the very bad
spiritual conditions of the 1st century when Jesus spoke the words of Matthew 7:13-14
in that 1st century generation of Jews who ended up rejecting Him as their Savior and
ultimately murdered the innocent Lord Jesus. Indeed only a relatively few in that 1st
century generation, did find the Lord Jesus as their Savior. But that 1st century generation
is NOT representative of the entire human race and all future human generations, and
there is NOT a single Bible verse that says it is. So? So you don't have to believe that
it is representative. You can use your free will to choose NOT to believe that it is
representative of the entire human race. And in fact it is NOT representative of the
entire human race and all future generations.


So?

So the three schools of Pessimistic Eschatology {1) Amillennialism (2) Premillennialism
(3) Dispensationalism do NOT have to interpret Matthew7:13-14 as being historically
predictive of the future of the human race. They use their free will to choose to interpret
Matthew 7:13-14 that way ~~ and it's wrong to do that. It's not right. It's not a good
thing to do, to interpret Matthew 7:13-14 in such as way that presents God as being
the kind of Being that creates untold billions of human beings knowing BEFORE He
created them, that the majority of them would end up screaming in agony in Hell for
all eternity.

__________________

If you are interested I have another article titled
"Will Only A Few Be Saved? No A Great Multitude Will Be Saved."
Let me know if you are interested and I'll post it.

Best

JAG

[]

Thank God that he has established a way, through conscience and natural law, to convict and save the person who never hears the message. That is a loving God.

 

[miamited]

Hi Jethro Bodine

I believe your passage opens with the point that I'm making:

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law,

Then it goes on to say that those apart from the law will be judged for their deeds just like everyone else. It says that some show that the law is on their hearts even though they aren't under the law. Well, the first command of the law is to love the Lord your God with all your strength, heart and mind. I would say that yes, anyone apart from the law who does come to understand who God is because God has made it plain to them, will be saved...if they keep that law. But the Scriptures are pretty clear that none of us can do that. Tell me, do you know if this Mr. Akuna worshipped God in his life?

Or is it the contention of the OP that if we're just good people and never run afoul of anyone here on the earth, that they will be saved.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi JAG ..

If on the other hand you are open to this:
■ You can be a 100% true blue Bible believing Christian
and at the same time
■ Get rid of the notion that the majority of the human race is going
to scream in eternal Hell forever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

All I'm doing is telling those on this thread what the words of Jesus said about the day of God's salvation. Now, you're free, just as I, to interpret that anyway that suits you. But no, I don't agree that Jesus' words were only speaking to that generation that stood in front of him when he spoke them.

Oh, and I also don't believe that the 'majority of the human race is going to scream in eternal hell forever'. They are just going to be separated from the providence and love of their Creator. Living among all the others who also have lived a life separated from the providence and love of their Creator. It's my understanding that the torment spoken of for those who are apart from God isn't some torment put on them by God. It will be the torment of living a life without God. Living with others without the love and compassion and hope that God provides to those who love Him. I long ago gave up on the understanding that God is going to be their tormentor. They will be tormented by the lusts of their flesh, just as many are tormented even today by the lusts of their flesh...only it will be eternal. There won't be any Jesus coming to make sacrifice for them so that they might have the hope that comes from God.

That's all I'm saying.

God bless,
Ted

 

[JAG ..]

Hi JAG ..

All I'm doing is telling those on this thread what the words of Jesus said about the day of God's salvation. Now, you're free, just as I, to interpret that anyway that suits you. But no, I don't agree that Jesus' words were only speaking to that generation that stood in front of him when he spoke them.

Oh, and I also don't believe that the 'majority of the human race is going to scream in eternal hell forever'. They are just going to be separated from the providence and love of their Creator. Living among all the others who also have lived a life separated from the providence and love of their Creator. It's my understanding that the torment spoken of for those who are apart from God isn't some torment put on them by God.

It will be the torment of living a life without God. Living with others without the love and compassion and hope that God provides to those who love Him. I long ago gave up on the understanding that God is going to be their tormentor. They will be tormented by the lusts of their flesh, just as many are tormented even today by the lusts of their flesh...only it will be eternal. There won't be any Jesus coming to make sacrifice for them so that they might have the hope that comes from God.

That's all I'm saying.

God bless,
Ted

Re the bolded text: (click to expand)
Okeeeeeey. That means that you don't hold to what the New Testament
says about Gehenna (translated with the world Hell).

Heh heh, once we enter this territory we then no longer have to be concerned
about finding reasonable intellectual solutions to apparent dilemmas.

Why not?

Well, we can just pick and choose from the New Testament what we want to
believe and dump the rest or apply magic to the texts and have the texts say
whatever we want the texts to say.

By the way, 2 + 2 = 5 because I say it does.

Best

JAG

[]

 

[JAG ..]

Thank God that he has established a way, through conscience and natural law, to convict and save the person who never hears the message. That is a loving God.

Yes this has to be correct otherwise we are living in true lunatic universe.

The notion that God will "throw" ie FORCE

(Jesus said He was going to send out His angels and that they would round
up the wicked and THROW them into Hell)

tens of billions of His creatures into an eternal Hell who worldwide history wide
have never heard one word of the gospel message is pure lunacy.

And the OP establishes a reasonable solution to this dilemma. The OP does in
fact establish the possibility that Akua Adisa can be saved.

And we can still hold firmly to John 14:6

Best

JAG

[]

 

[miamited]

Hi JAG ..

That means that you don't hold to what the New Testament
says about Gehenna (translated with the world Hell).

Can you be a bit more specific as to how you see anything that I said not being in agreement with the Scriptures?

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

What I'm saying is that the 'torment' spoken of for those who fail to find God's salvation isn't 'by' the hand of God. It is the torment of their own lusts.

Do you have a verse that says that God will torment them forever? I think, on this subject, the Scriptures just tell us that they will be tormented day and night forever. It doesn't ever allude to the source of that torment.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It says that some show that the law is on their hearts even though they aren't under the law. Well, the first command of the law is to love the Lord your God with all your strength, heart and mind. I would say that yes, anyone apart from the law who does come to understand who God is because God has made it plain to them, will be saved...if they keep that law. But the Scriptures are pretty clear that none of us can do that.

I think you're saying that Romans 2:12-16 is saying regardless if the law is written on the heart or not they can't keep it anyway, and so all these people without the knowledge of the law/gospel are lost. But the passage says the thoughts of these people will be either accuse them or defend them:

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous.

14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them 16on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus,b as proclaimed by my gospel. Romans 2:12-16

 

[eddif]

Question: How is God good or just to abandon to Hell those who have never even heard the gospel?

JAG Writes:

Consider the following:

First, we Bible believing Christians start with the true proclamation that
God always does that which is right.

This means that the God who always does what is right, world-wide
and history-wide, is never going to abandon one of His elect to Gehenna,
but will find a way to save them and give them the gift of eternal life as
per John 3:16's "shall not perish but have eternal life."

Second, we Bible believing Christians MUST stay within the confines
of doctrinal orthodoxy and so we hold solid and fast to John 14:6
that correctly teaches: no man can come to the Father except through
believing in the Lord Jesus as his Savior.

Third, none of the above prevents us from considering the following:

Eternal Now. With regard to God's knowledge there is no past. present and future.
God sees everything in the Eternal NOW. God's Omniscience demands this position.
God now knows all that can be known, God does not learn new information and new truths.


So?

So the Eternal NOW knowledge is God's reality. And God's reality IS REALITY.

What YOU (we) can see is very limited and what YOU (we) can see IS NOT REALITY.

God has Middle Knowledge -- what that means is that God sees and knows fully
what every human being would choose to do under all possible sets of different
circumstances.


Let us take for an example a man named Akua Adisa, born in Africa in the year 1600 A.D.

Akua lived and died never knowing a single word of the gospel message.

God's Middle Knowledge knows precisely what Akua Adisa will choose to do in all possible
sets of circumstances --

-- for example if Akua Adisa had been born in, say, South Carolina in the year 1990 A.D.
and had traveled to hear Franklin Graham preach the gospel.

How is this ↓ conclusion NOT compelling?
If the Sovereign God knows that Akua Adisa would have accepted the Lord Jesus as his
Savior if he had been born in the year 1990 A.D. in South Carolina when he heard Franklin
Graham preach the gospel then in God's reality Akua Adisa has accepted the Lord Jesus as
his Savior and has therefore fulfilled the requirements of John 14:6 no man can come to the
Father except through faith in the Lord Jesus.

Are we not compelled to reach this conclusion?

Thoughts?

__________________________

PS
God's Omniscience demands we hold that God has what the philosophers call
Middle Knowledge.


JAG

[]

I for sure am almost defeated before I comment, if I follow all your rules. So please excuse me as I ignore some of what you declare.

The issue of never having heard the gospel:
Ezekiel 36:26 kjv
26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
That is understood fully after -
Hebrews 10:16 kjv
16. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

The Ezekiel passage was made while the law of Moses was in force , but the parallel statement in Hebrews was after Pentecost (the gentiles received the same after their inclusion).
At this point Jethro Bodine is correct.
They have a new born again nature.
……….,
Time travel to Creation.
Romans 1:20 kjv
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

The thing is creation shows the Godhead, but their heart was darkened.
The truth was right before them, but the saw it not to understand it. To this day some do not see this. (With physical or spiritual eyes).

The natural pacemaker (of the heart) looks like a crucified man,

So two natures;
Creation Nature
Born Again Nature

Parables used by Jesus had a hidden meaning, and were not understood by the multitudes. The disciples had to ask for understanding, and Jesus gave the meaning.

Today the same thing can happen. Creation nature can create a question in the mind of man. If man asks God for understanding, he will answer. By man or divine revelation IMHO.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[miamited]

Hi Jethro Bodine

But the passage says the thoughts of these people will be either accuse them or defend them:

Yes, that's exactly what it says and that's exactly how I read it. I just don't believe in reading other parts of the Scriptures that there are going to be many who wind up defended by their actions in life,...without Jesus.

Man's heart is wicked. Who can know it?

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

So, I read it and understand it just as you do, I just don't think those without Christ who are defended by their actions in life is going to be any great number,...if any at all.

I mean if Paul is telling us the truth in his writting to the Roman believers that 'all' have sinned, there's only one way to fix that sin problem. Now, yes, if someone were to live their entire life and never sin, never break the law, I believe that God will give them eternal life. But based on other Scripture I don't think that's going to be the final outcome of anyone who has ever lived upon the earth.

In this particular example, I've offered that the sin of this African man is likely going to be that he broke the first law.

God bless,
Ted

 

[JAG ..]

Hi Jethro Bodine

Yes, that's exactly what it says and that's exactly how I read it. I just don't believe in reading other parts of the Scriptures that there are going to be many who wind up defended by their actions in life,...without Jesus.

Man's heart is wicked. Who can know it?

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

So, I read it and understand it just as you do, I just don't think those without Christ who are defended by their actions in life is going to be any great number,...if any at all.

I mean if Paul is telling us the truth in his writting to the Roman believers that 'all' have sinned, there's only one way to fix that sin problem. Now, yes, if someone were to live their entire life and never sin, never break the law, I believe that God will give them eternal life. But based on other Scripture I don't think that's going to be the final outcome of anyone who has ever lived upon the earth.

In this particular example, I've offered that the sin of this African man is likely going to be that he broke the first law.

God bless,
Ted

Re the bolded: (Click to expand)
LOL
We have no basis for any serious discussion.
We have entered La La Land.
Yesterday my automobile Bob, ate an apple as it coasted
on its wings of feathers 25 yards beneath Lake Superior
and later on Bob and I had lunch together at 21.

’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Best . . . I mean tseb

JAG

[]

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering

To me that means that that man in Africa should know about God because God has made it plain to all mankind. Even the heavens declare the glory of God. But that doesn't mean that any of us are saved without Jesus because God says that it is His purpose that all come to His salvation...which is through His Son, Jesus.

Is it your position that just because people don't know God that they'll be saved?

God bless,
Ted

No Ted, that's not my position.
If someone doesn't know God, they can't go to be with Him.
Unless there's some underlying circumstance - like brain damage, etc.

I agree with your understanding of
Romans 1:19-21
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened.

At the judgment, man will be without an excuse because God has always let Himself be known either by personal revelation, natural revelation, or written revelation.
Man can know about God just by looking around himself.
Some will accept God, and some are not interested or will not believe.
As to being saved by Jesus, yes, everyone who is saved is so by the name of Jesus and His atoning sacrifice for ALL MEN.
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus died for everyone. Even the OT persons that were saved by their faith were saved by Jesus.
God knows no time barrier.

 

[GodsGrace]

Question: How is God good or just to abandon to Hell those who have never even heard the gospel?

JAG Writes:

Consider the following:

First, we Bible believing Christians start with the true proclamation that
God always does that which is right.

This means that the God who always does what is right, world-wide
and history-wide, is never going to abandon one of His elect to Gehenna,
but will find a way to save them and give them the gift of eternal life as
per John 3:16's "shall not perish but have eternal life."

Second, we Bible believing Christians MUST stay within the confines
of doctrinal orthodoxy and so we hold solid and fast to John 14:6
that correctly teaches: no man can come to the Father except through
believing in the Lord Jesus as his Savior.

Third, none of the above prevents us from considering the following:

Eternal Now. With regard to God's knowledge there is no past. present and future.
God sees everything in the Eternal NOW. God's Omniscience demands this position.
God now knows all that can be known, God does not learn new information and new truths.


So?

So the Eternal NOW knowledge is God's reality. And God's reality IS REALITY.

What YOU (we) can see is very limited and what YOU (we) can see IS NOT REALITY.

God has Middle Knowledge -- what that means is that God sees and knows fully
what every human being would choose to do under all possible sets of different
circumstances.


Let us take for an example a man named Akua Adisa, born in Africa in the year 1600 A.D.

Akua lived and died never knowing a single word of the gospel message.

God's Middle Knowledge knows precisely what Akua Adisa will choose to do in all possible
sets of circumstances --

-- for example if Akua Adisa had been born in, say, South Carolina in the year 1990 A.D.
and had traveled to hear Franklin Graham preach the gospel.

How is this ↓ conclusion NOT compelling?
If the Sovereign God knows that Akua Adisa would have accepted the Lord Jesus as his
Savior if he had been born in the year 1990 A.D. in South Carolina when he heard Franklin
Graham preach the gospel then in God's reality Akua Adisa has accepted the Lord Jesus as
his Savior and has therefore fulfilled the requirements of John 14:6 no man can come to the
Father except through faith in the Lord Jesus.

Are we not compelled to reach this conclusion?

Thoughts?

__________________________

PS
God's Omniscience demands we hold that God has what the philosophers call
Middle Knowledge.


JAG

[]

I'm not even sure we need to call on God's middle knowledge.

Let's take your fictional character from 1600AD.
I'll bet that if we visited his village, we could have a pretty good idea about who is serving God and who isn't.
He might mention the great Spirit, or he would be somehow praying, or, at the least, his entire attitude would be different from those that did not believe in anything but the material.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Jethro Bodine

That's right. But that's not God's fault and God has established 'how' any man may be saved. Again I remind you of the words of Jesus.


Is it your understanding that all of the 'many' that Jesus speaks of, just before he tells us of these 'few', heard the gospel but rejected it? What if a lot of those never heard the gospel because we didn't do our part? What if a lot of those who are doomed to eternal separation from God wind up that way because their parents and their parents didn't do their part. What about all of the Gentiles who died even as Paul and the first apostles were just beginning to spread the gospel. I mean, I don't think it's like Jesus died, was resurrected and suddenly everyone in the world in that day 'knew' the gospel. No. The gospel had to be spread and unfortunately it didn't just happen overnight the day after Jesus' resurrection.

So, I'm just saying that there are a lot of reasons that someone dies without ever hearing the good news of His forgiveness and salvation. But according to the Scriptures: No one comes to the Father, but through the Son. According to the Scriptures 'many' will be lost and 'few' will find His salvation. Me, I agree that I'm not God. I'm not sure that God equates 'fairness' in the same way that I might consider 'fairness'. But what I do know is that God is just and merciful. But I also know that His testimony doesn't really give any sign of hope to us for those who have never heard of Him. Which is why the question is even coming up in the first place.

Lastly, is God a liar? He has declared that He has made it plain to all mankind that He does exist. That none of us have an excuse. I don't think He's referring to just people who have heard the gospel and rejected it.

God bless,
Ted

Your last sentence conflicts with everything above it.

 

[eddif]

I need to look up acts 16:9 kjv
9. And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.

This seems related to this discussion.

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

I need to look up acts 16:9 kjv
9. And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.

This seems related to this discussion.

eddif

Lydia would be related to this discussion.
Acts 16:14

Lydia was a worshipper of God BEFORE she had heard of Jesus.

And, as JAG .. stated, she became a believer upon hearing about Jesus.
But she was saved even before and if she had never heard of Jesus or the gospel.

She was a worshipper of God.

God Father is God.
God Son is God.
God Holy Spirit is God.

Matters not which PERSON you worship... (due to not enough knowledge)
it is still GOD.

 

[miamited]

Your last sentence conflicts with everything above it.

Hi wondering

With all due respect, I'm 68 years old and likely more adle brained than most. Could you please be a bit more specific as to what it is that I said before the last sentence that is in conflict?

God bless,
Ted

 

[eddif]

I need to look up acts 16:9 kjv
9. And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.

This seems related to this discussion.

eddif

Ok we have Acts 16

The foreign lands had never heard the Gospel, but the dispersion of the mourning over sins of Ireael Jews had told them of the true God.

We tend to forget the influence of true Jewish people on the nations before Jesus. The Ezekiel dispersion was not for punishment, but to keep them alive when slaughter came to Jerusalem. Those marked on the forehead were protected from the slaughter. There was a remanent of those Jews sorry for the sins of Israel. They were to tell the nations of God. Which is probably the direct call to Macedonia. Atkins that listened were blessed. The nations Thad Did Not Listen seem to not be on the preferred list to get the Gospel.

Never noticed the Gospel preferred list before.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Lydia would be related to this discussion.
Acts 16:14

Lydia was a worshipper of God BEFORE she had heard of Jesus.

And, as JAG .. stated, she became a believer upon hearing about Jesus.
But she was saved even before and if she had never heard of Jesus or the gospel.

She was a worshipper of God.

God Father is God.
God Son is God.
God Holy Spirit is God.

Matters not which PERSON you worship... (due to not enough knowledge)
it is still GOD.

So I saw the red flag and waited to read it till after I posted. Thus the how she knew God is posted.

Mississippi redneck
eddif