What About Those In Non-Christian Lands Who Have Never Heard The Gospel?

[eddif]

And, as @JAG .. stated, she became a believer upon hearing about Jesus.
But she was saved even before and if she had never heard of Jesus or the gospel.

I ain’t a fussin, but I shore hope I am a clairifian.

Worshiping God is not salvation
Mourning over sins is not salvation
Repentance of John the Baptist is not salvation

Acts 4:10 kjv
10. Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
13. Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

We have a lot of traditions, but ….
John the Baptist said repent and believe in the one who comes after me. He it is who will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and fire (from memory.

What about Old Testament saints? I am so glad you asked.
Abraham’s bosom was the holding place till Christ Jesus had accomplished salvation.

1 Peter 3:18 kjv
18. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Saved from drowning, or enemies, or famine is a type of the coming salvation in Christ Jesus, but the reality of eternal life is the Gospel of the Son the Father sent.

Boy I sound sure. Well I can’t win by being the meanest man in the valley. The message of the Gospel is the answer. Not my thoughts, not their thoughts, but believing on the Son Jesus.

Revelation 3:20 kjv
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Plenty more scriptures point to Jesus as Messiah.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

God Father is God.
God Son is God.
God Holy Spirit is God.

Matters not which PERSON you worship... (due to not enough knowledge)
it is still GOD.

1 Corinthians 12:4 kjv
4. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

I am a redneck from Mississippi. A janitor once told me. You don’t have enough letters after your name for them to listen to you. At the time engineers had made a terrible goof up by not getting down in the ground and looking under a sidewalk. From above it looked like a river of water would flow through. Underneath there was an obstruction that severely cut down on area for water flow.

The engineers charged $40,000 for a solution that $5,000 would’ve have fixed.

Anyway. The above verses
Sure seem to show the areas of expertise for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

One name for salvation.

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering

With all due respect, I'm 68 years old and likely more adle brained than most. Could you please be a bit more specific as to what it is that I said before the last sentence that is in conflict?

God bless,
Ted

Sorry, my bad.
This is your post no. 20:

Is it your understanding that all of the 'many' that Jesus speaks of, just before he tells us of these 'few', heard the gospel but rejected it? What if a lot of those never heard the gospel because we didn't do our part? What if a lot of those who are doomed to eternal separation from God wind up that way because their parents and their parents didn't do their part. What about all of the Gentiles who died even as Paul and the first apostles were just beginning to spread the gospel. I mean, I don't think it's like Jesus died, was resurrected and suddenly everyone in the world in that day 'knew' the gospel. No. The gospel had to be spread and unfortunately it didn't just happen overnight the day after Jesus' resurrection.

The word UNFORTUNATELY makes me understand that you think that those that did not hear the gospel could not be saved. I could have misunderstood, of course.

So, I'm just saying that there are a lot of reasons that someone dies without ever hearing the good news of His forgiveness and salvation. But according to the Scriptures: No one comes to the Father, but through the Son.

This sounds like you believe that one can come to salvation ONLY by believing in Jesus.
This topic is about those that have never heard of Him.

According to the Scriptures 'many' will be lost and 'few' will find His salvation. Me, I agree that I'm not God. I'm not sure that God equates 'fairness' in the same way that I might consider 'fairness'. But what I do know is that God is just and merciful. But I also know that His testimony doesn't really give any sign of hope to us for those who have never heard of Him. Which is why the question is even coming up in the first place.

In the above underlined you clearly state that God's word gives no hope for those that have never heard of Him.

Lastly, is God a liar? He has declared that He has made it plain to all mankind that He does exist. That none of us have an excuse. I don't think He's referring to just people who have heard the gospel and rejected it.

Here is where you change and state that God has made it plain to all mankind that He exists and thus no one has an excuse (at judgment time). AND that God is not referring to people who have heard the gospel and rejected it.

I see a conflict in statement...?

 

[GodsGrace]

I ain’t a fussin, but I shore hope I am a clairifian.

Worshiping God is not salvation

Eddif,
If worshipping God is not salvation...
I have nothing left to say.

Mourning over sins is not salvation.

To whom do we mourn over our sins?
Is sorrow for our sins necessary for salvation?

Is God not involved in the above?

Repentance of John the Baptist is not salvation

All those that were baptized by John are lost?
Why did God send him. Was it a joke on those lost?

Acts 4:10 kjv
10. Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
13. Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

All were saved by Jesus. Past, present and future.
The past sinners were saved, Jesus opened the heavenly doors,,,but they were saved nonetheless.

We have a lot of traditions, but ….
John the Baptist said repent and believe in the one who comes after me. He it is who will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and fire (from memory.

What about Old Testament saints? I am so glad you asked.
Abraham’s bosom was the holding place till Christ Jesus had accomplished salvation.

Jesus had accomplished salvation for them even BEFORE the crucifixion.
(or they would have been lost).

1 Peter 3:18 kjv
18. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20. Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Saved from drowning, or enemies, or famine is a type of the coming salvation in Christ Jesus, but the reality of eternal life is the Gospel of the Son the Father sent.

Boy I sound sure. Well I can’t win by being the meanest man in the valley. The message of the Gospel is the answer. Not my thoughts, not their thoughts, but believing on the Son Jesus.

Revelation 3:20 kjv
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Plenty more scriptures point to Jesus as Messiah.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

I'll only say that God knows no time - this is a human understanding.
Jesus IS the REDEEMER of all people who believe in God.
Is Jesus God or not?

Are there two Gods?
If a person believed in God the creator,,,did he not also believe in God the son?

If you answer no, you'll have to explain why that does not make 2 Gods...
And having to believe in the CORRECT GOD. (since there are 2, according to your understanding).

 

[GodsGrace]

1 Corinthians 12:4 kjv
4. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

I am a redneck from Mississippi. A janitor once told me. You don’t have enough letters after your name for them to listen to you. At the time engineers had made a terrible goof up by not getting down in the ground and looking under a sidewalk. From above it looked like a river of water would flow through. Underneath there was an obstruction that severely cut down on area for water flow.

The engineers charged $40,000 for a solution that $5,000 would’ve have fixed.

Anyway. The above verses
Sure seem to show the areas of expertise for the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

One name for salvation.

eddif

I agree that there is only ONE GOD.

 

[miamited]

Hi wondering

This sounds like you believe that one can come to salvation ONLY by believing in Jesus.

I think that's what the Scriptures say. No one comes to the Father except through the Son. Yes, I believe that. This also explains why Jesus spent time with the dead after his own death. His good news of salvation through faith in his shed blood is what I believe he went there to proclaim.

Here is where you change and state that God has made it plain to all mankind that He exists and thus no one has an excuse (at judgment time). AND that God is not referring to people who have heard the gospel and rejected it.

You should use the quote function when you want to address something specific that someone posted. Can you copy and paste 'where' I said what you're claiming that I said? My question is the part that follows the 'and'. Did I post that part? Yes I did copy from the Scriptures the part that I posted that says: No one has an excuse because God has made it plain to them. And hopefully you have enough Scripture knowledge to know that what I posted as the first part is what God's word tells us is God's position on whether or not anyone should be able to know the truth.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

I mean, honestly, if you have a problem with those words and how I am defining them, that's fine and we can discuss how we might each define the words differently. But they are the words straight from the Scriptures.

I don't see the contradiction that you seem to see in my post. Sorry.

God bless,
Ted

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering

I think that's what the Scriptures say. No one comes to the Father except through the Son. Yes, I believe that. This also explains why Jesus spent time with the dead after his own death. His good news of salvation through faith in his shed blood is what I believe he went there to proclaim.

You should use the quote function when you want to address something specific that someone posted. Can you copy and paste 'where' I said what you're claiming that I said? My question is the part that follows the 'and'. Did I post that part? Yes I did copy from the Scriptures the part that I posted that says: No one has an excuse because God has made it plain to them. And hopefully you have enough Scripture knowledge to know that what I posted as the first part is what God's word tells us is God's position on whether or not anyone should be able to know the truth.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

I mean, honestly, if you have a problem with those words and how I am defining them, that's fine and we can discuss how we might each define the words differently. But they are the words straight from the Scriptures.

I don't see the contradiction that you seem to see in my post. Sorry.

God bless,
Ted

I just want to say that the bolded are YOUR words exactly by using copy and paste.

Yes, there is a misunderstanding of Romans 1:19-21

Those words are referring to persons that HAD NOT HEARD THE GOSPEL.
Paul is saying that mankind ALWAYS KNEW about God because God made it PLAIN TO THEM.
Because of God's INVISIBLE QUALITIES, HIS ETERNAL POWER and DIVINE NATURE have been clearly seen,
they are understood from what HAS BEEN MADE, IOW, the world around us, the universe and nature, proclaim God.

It is for this reason that ALL MEN will have NO EXCUSE when they appear before God.

In your scenario, their excuse is that they never heard of Jesus or had the bible.

How do you explain
Acts 16:14-15?
14A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
15And when she and her household had been baptized,

 

[miamited]

Hi wondering

I honestly don't remember writing these words:

Here is where you change and state that God

Why would I write: here is where you change and state...

I don't think I made any claim that you had changed. So again, I would ask that rather copy and pasting, it is better to use the quote function which allows one to use the little arrow that takes them back to the actual post in which the thing was said. Do you remember what I was claiming when I said that "here is where you change"? I just honestly don't recall writing those words.

In your scenario, their excuse is that they never heard of Jesus or had the bible.

And I really have to apologize if I wrote in a manner that would cause you to believe that I think their never having heard of Jesus as an excuse. My claim is that their never having heard of Jesus will condemn them. I think you've got me mixed up with the other side of this discussion.

God bless,
Ted

 

[JAG ..]

Lydia would be related to this discussion.
Acts 16:14

Lydia was a worshipper of God BEFORE she had heard of Jesus.

And, as JAG .. stated, she became a believer upon hearing about Jesus.
But she was saved even before and if she had never heard of Jesus or the gospel.

She was a worshipper of God.

God Father is God.
God Son is God.
God Holy Spirit is God.

Matters not which PERSON you worship... (due to not enough knowledge)
it is still GOD.

It is also reasonable to conclude that the thief on the cross
had little or no doctrinal content about the plan of salvation.
He had a general change of mind while he was on the cross
when he asked Jesus to remember him when he came into
His kingdom.

This thief had at first joined in with the other criminal on the cross
in speaking bad about the Lord Jesus Mark 15:12 and Matthew 27:44 --

- but later changed his mind.

It is impossible for us to know what the "good thief" knew about Jesus.
All we can do is speculate and say it does not seem like he had any
doctrinal content about salvation.

Best

JAG

[]

 

[eddif]

It is also reasonable to conclude that the thief on the cross
had little or no doctrinal content about the plan of salvation.
He had a general change of mind while he was on the cross
when he asked Jesus to remember him when he came into
His kingdom.

This thief had at first joined in with the other criminal on the cross
in speaking bad about the Lord Jesus Mark 15:12 and Matthew 27:44 --

- but later changed his mind.

It is impossible for us to know what the "good thief" knew about Jesus.
All we can do is speculate and say it does not seem like he had any
doctrinal content about salvation.

Best

JAG

[]

The rest of your good story - IMHO

Hearing The Gospel:

Jesus and the good thief were about to be in Abraham’s bosom (grave). There the thief would hear the gospel message first hand.

No there is not a description of this as such.

The thief is probably the last person to have a chance to hear Jesus preach the one time message in the grave.

This is not necessary to dwell on, but interesting.

You do know we are not allowed to think. LOL

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

The rest of your good story - IMHO

Hearing The Gospel:

Jesus and the good thief were about to be in Abraham’s bosom (grave). There the thief would hear the gospel message first hand.

No there is not a description of this as such.

The thief is probably the last person to have a chance to hear Jesus preach the one time message in the grave.

This is not necessary to dwell on, but interesting.

You do know we are not allowed to think. LOL

Mississippi redneck
eddif

As another side note.
Joseph in prision in Egypt was in prison with two people. One died and the other was restored to his job. Where later his testimony brought Joseph out of prison.

eddif

 

[eddif]

John 12:32 kjv
32. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Lifted up at least 2 ways (above ground)
Placed on cross
Ascended into heaven.

Raised in esteem before men
I find no fault in him
Surely this was the son of God (gentile Roman soldier)
The sign on the cross
The thief

eddif

 

[JAG ..]

The rest of your good story - IMHO

Hearing The Gospel:

Jesus and the good thief were about to be in Abraham’s bosom (grave). There the thief would hear the gospel message first hand.

No there is not a description of this as such.

The thief is probably the last person to have a chance to hear Jesus preach the one time message in the grave.

This is not necessary to dwell on, but interesting.

You do know we are not allowed to think. LOL

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Re Abraham's bosom:
I'd have to research it, but as I recall that notion is highly debated and
strongly controversial. It says that there are 3 places where people can
or did go when they died.
(1) Heaven
(2) Gehenna
(3) Abraham's bosom

My view: (3) is not a real place

Start quote.
The term “Abraham’s bosom” is found only once in the New Testament, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), in which Jesus was teaching about the reality of heaven and hell. “Abraham’s bosom” in this story is also translated “Abraham’s side” (NIV, ESV), “next to Abraham” (CEV), “with Abraham” (NLT), and “the arms of Abraham” (NCV). These various translations speak to the enigmatic nature of the Greek word kolpos.

All these translations are attempting to convey the sense that Lazarus went to a place of rest, contentment, and peace, almost as though Abraham (a highly revered person in Jewish history) was the protector or patron. In a sad contrast, the rich man finds himself in torment with no one to help, assist, or console him.
End quote

Source:

What is Abraham’s bosom? | GotQuestions.org

What is Abraham’s bosom? How is Abraham’s bosom related to paradise, heaven, hell, hades, and sheol?

www.gotquestions.org

Best

JAG

[]

 

[Robert Pate]

Question: How is God good or just to abandon to Hell those who have never even heard the gospel?

JAG Writes:

Consider the following:

First, we Bible believing Christians start with the true proclamation that
God always does that which is right.

This means that the God who always does what is right, world-wide
and history-wide, is never going to abandon one of His elect to Gehenna,
but will find a way to save them and give them the gift of eternal life as
per John 3:16's "shall not perish but have eternal life."

Second, we Bible believing Christians MUST stay within the confines
of doctrinal orthodoxy and so we hold solid and fast to John 14:6
that correctly teaches: no man can come to the Father except through
believing in the Lord Jesus as his Savior.

Third, none of the above prevents us from considering the following:

Eternal Now. With regard to God's knowledge there is no past. present and future.
God sees everything in the Eternal NOW. God's Omniscience demands this position.
God now knows all that can be known, God does not learn new information and new truths.


So?

So the Eternal NOW knowledge is God's reality. And God's reality IS REALITY.

What YOU (we) can see is very limited and what YOU (we) can see IS NOT REALITY.

God has Middle Knowledge -- what that means is that God sees and knows fully
what every human being would choose to do under all possible sets of different
circumstances.


Let us take for an example a man named Akua Adisa, born in Africa in the year 1600 A.D.

Akua lived and died never knowing a single word of the gospel message.

God's Middle Knowledge knows precisely what Akua Adisa will choose to do in all possible
sets of circumstances --

-- for example if Akua Adisa had been born in, say, South Carolina in the year 1990 A.D.
and had traveled to hear Franklin Graham preach the gospel.

How is this ↓ conclusion NOT compelling?
If the Sovereign God knows that Akua Adisa would have accepted the Lord Jesus as his
Savior if he had been born in the year 1990 A.D. in South Carolina when he heard Franklin
Graham preach the gospel then in God's reality Akua Adisa has accepted the Lord Jesus as
his Savior and has therefore fulfilled the requirements of John 14:6 no man can come to the
Father except through faith in the Lord Jesus.

Are we not compelled to reach this conclusion?

Thoughts?

__________________________

PS
God's Omniscience demands we hold that God has what the philosophers call
Middle Knowledge.


JAG

[]

Good question. I have found that people who have repentant hearts are the ones that accept Christ as their savior. The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ. Everyone knows when they have done evil because everyone is born with a conscience, even savages. A savage may have remorse for killing his neighbor or doing some other evil thing. These are the ones that come to Christ when they hear the Gospel. Those that don't have repentant hearts or remorse for their sins are spiritually dead.

 

[eddif]

Good question. I have found that people who have repentant hearts are the ones that accept Christ as their savior. The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ. Everyone knows when they have done evil because everyone is born with a conscience, even savages. A savage may have remorse for killing his neighbor or doing some other evil thing. These are the ones that come to Christ when they hear the Gospel. Those that don't have repentant hearts or remorse for their sins are spiritually dead.

Well
I thought:
Without the law there is no knowledge of sin.

The Old Testament prophets said:
I will put my law in their hearts and minds ( or am I quoting the Hebrews passage?). At any reason Jew and gentile ultimately get the law insid themselves and not only externally through/by (?) the law of Moses.

Gentiles are sleek and fat and have no problems. Sin is not an issue to them according to King David. David was aware of sins. , as he considered the ungodly.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Robert Pate]

Well
I thought:
Without the law there is no knowledge of sin.

The Old Testament prophets said:
I will put my law in their hearts and minds ( or am I quoting the Hebrews passage?). At any reason Jew and gentile ultimately get the law insid themselves and not only externally through/by (?) the law of Moses.

Gentiles are sleek and fat and have no problems. Sin is not an issue to them according to King David. David was aware of sins. , as he considered the ungodly.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Can it be that the conscience is God's law? Everyone seems to have a conscience, except for some serial killers that appear to be spiritually dead. They kill, but they have no remorse. No remorse means that they could do it again.

 

[GodsGrace]

Can it be that the conscience is God's law? Everyone seems to have a conscience, except for some serial killers that appear to be spiritually dead. They kill, but they have no remorse. No remorse means that they could do it again.

Romans 2
Will confirm the above.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well
I thought:
Without the law there is no knowledge of sin.

The Old Testament prophets said:
I will put my law in their hearts and minds ( or am I quoting the Hebrews passage?). At any reason Jew and gentile ultimately get the law insid themselves and not only externally through/by (?) the law of Moses.

Gentiles are sleek and fat and have no problems. Sin is not an issue to them according to King David. David was aware of sins. , as he considered the ungodly.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

The law existed from the beginning of time.

OF THIS TREE YOU SHALL NOT EAT.

 

[Robert Pate]

Romans 2
Will confirm the above.

Romans 2 is a picture of a self-righteous, unsaved person that is judging others. Most likely a Pharisee, Romans 2:17.

 

[eddif]

Romans 2
Will confirm the above.

How about quoting the
Exact verses in Romans 2

Romans 2:14 kjv
14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

The gentiles do not have th law of Moses, but they have the law contained in the law of Moses (written in their hearts).

The Jews received the law written in their hearts at Pentecost (?). The gentiles had the law written in their hearts at the gentile inclusion.

Acts 10:44 kjv
44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

INHO we receive the conscience as a true understanding when we receive the Holy Spirit.
Thus Paul can talk about the body of death and the mind of Christ (at the same time). Paul had his eyes heals and received the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. Before that time his conscience did not condemn him.

The red bell is showing let me see if it is this subject.
Mississippi redneck