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zeland

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When Christ, at the last supper, said, “This is My Body – This is My Blood”,was He talking only symbolically or did He really mean that the bread and wine were to be miraculous transformed into His real Flesh and Blood, while still retaining the outward appearance of bread and wine?

First of all, I think that most people would agree that Christ certainly has the power to do that, and the Catholic response to this question has always been a resounding YES! Yes, He was talking literally and NOT symbolically, and yes, this has been the constant teaching of the Church, from apostolic times till now. Ever since the words of consecration were first spoken at the Last Supper, the apostles and their successors have believed in the literal meaning of Christ's words, believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

However, despite all the scriptural evidence to the contrary, most protestants (non-Catholic Christians if you prefer) do not accept this teaching of Christ. They say our lord was just talking symbolically. For all those in this category I would like to suggest the following as a subject of serious reflection.

Ask yourself this question. "Why do I not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Is it a concept that is too difficult to understand (A "hard saying" as the Jews put it, as they walked away), or is it just because I have been told this all my life, but never seriously studied the scriptures to see if what I was taught was correct, or could it be that really deep down inside I just don’t want to believe it?

Therefore, first question - "What would be the consequences to my life if I choose to believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist, if I choose to accept the literal meaning of Christ's words at the Last Super"?

And then, following from the above question, we have - "What are the consequences of NOT believing in the Real Presence, of NOT accepting the literal meaning of His words"? See Mark 16:16 for the answer.
 
When Christ, at the last supper, said, “This is My Body – This is My Blood”,was He talking only symbolically or did He really mean that the bread and wine were to be miraculous transformed into His real Flesh and Blood, while still retaining the outward appearance of bread and wine?

First of all, I think that most people would agree that Christ certainly has the power to do that, and the Catholic response to this question has always been a resounding YES! Yes, He was talking literally and NOT symbolically, and yes, this has been the constant teaching of the Church, from apostolic times till now. Ever since the words of consecration were first spoken at the Last Supper, the apostles and their successors have believed in the literal meaning of Christ's words, believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

However, despite all the scriptural evidence to the contrary, most protestants (non-Catholic Christians if you prefer) do not accept this teaching of Christ. They say our lord was just talking symbolically. For all those in this category I would like to suggest the following as a subject of serious reflection.

Ask yourself this question. "Why do I not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Is it a concept that is too difficult to understand (A "hard saying" as the Jews put it, as they walked away), or is it just because I have been told this all my life, but never seriously studied the scriptures to see if what I was taught was correct, or could it be that really deep down inside I just don’t want to believe it?

Therefore, first question - "What would be the consequences to my life if I choose to believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist, if I choose to accept the literal meaning of Christ's words at the Last Super"?

And then, following from the above question, we have - "What are the consequences of NOT believing in the Real Presence, of NOT accepting the literal meaning of His words"? See Mark 16:16 for the answer.

I demur some of your terms, such the [the church] as Catholicism at least primus inter pares, and some of your assumptions. But on to your QQQ....

1# “What would be the consequences to my life if I choose to believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist, if I choose to accept the literal meaning of Christ’s words at the Last Super”? Besides the issue of choosing, a hidden assumption here is that the literal meaning is the correct meaning: I do not wish to rehash arguments put up by the various sides, but I believe he had meant it metaphorically.

A wider issue is one of standing before God, and I’d render Rm.14:23 as that whatever is not of conscience (faith whether in a right or wrong interpretation of Scripture) is sin. For RCs to believe it to be right, and not to act accordingly, would be subjective sin, thus undermining their stand with God, even as believers in weekly sabbaths or kosher laws were a# to live accordingly, but b# might come to see the deeper truth (eg Ac.10:15). Similarly SDAs would subjectively (not objectively) sin by ditching Saturdays to Sundays unless biblically convinced to ditch, though a wider issue is whether any day is holier than another.

The Q I think you intend is, if proleptically Christ intended a literalism, would we not be better served by compliance? If yes, then yes. In principle I suggest that your Q applies to a swarth of doctrines, for we should seek to understand our master’s mind and to live accordingly, and the better we do so the better our blessing. Salvation Armyism doesn’t hold to the eucharist; Baptivism does, so accesses a blessing that the Army does not. RCs would claim even greater blessing than the Baptists access, and some indeed would hold the eucharist to be critical. A sincere RC would by misguided belief be better blessed than an insincere Baptist of rightly guided belief, but a sincere Baptist of rightly guided belief would be blessed best.

2# Mk.16:16 is subcanonical (so the NCB footnote on Mk.16:9; Trent 1 was mistaken on this), so at best can only echo any biblical answer. And BTW, when was the last time that in line with Mk.16:9-20 you exorcised, spoke in what to you was unlearnt language, handled snakes, drank poison, and healed sick folk if you believed? And again your Q includes the hidden assumption that Jesus did speak those words in a literal (howbeit proleptic) sense.

As to consequences, to the extent that we do not understand Christ, let alone God, we wander within a substandard human life, and some fail to enter the messianic community. But I believe a symbolic eucharist to be biblical belief, not a substandard belief. I do not hold that water-baptism and the eucharist are vital for entering Christ’s kingdom, nor for postmortem life, but that both are good markers of obedience within it and are blessing points.
 
When Christ, at the last supper, said, “This is My Body – This is My Blood”,was He talking only symbolically or did He really mean that the bread and wine were to be miraculous transformed into His real Flesh and Blood, while still retaining the outward appearance of bread and wine?
A consequence of such a belief is the need for God to constantly do two miracles.
To transform bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus and another miracle so that the body and blood of Jesus is to all appearance just bread and wine.
God has to do this every time communion is celebrated.

The fact that the bread and wine remains unchanged shows us that it is a memorial meal.
 
I would say this would be cannibalism to actually eat His flesh and drink His blood as how could the Disciples literally do this at the last supper Jesus would ever have with His Disciples while He was still with them. The broken bread represents the body of Christ torn apart by the lashings He took for all of us. The wine represents that of the blood Jesus shed for us as He made atonement for our sin. Jesus is not going to miraculously turn bread into His flesh and wine into His blood. The Roman Catholic church calls this transubstantiation which first started being taught by the Fourth Council of the Lateran in 1215.

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
 
despite all the scriptural evidence to the contrary,
Evidence to the contrary of false rcc views as supplied by Jesus.
John6: Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”


Note Jesus talks about eating his flesh and drinking his blood!
Yet he says " it is the spirit that gives life, the flesh counts for nothing. That his words are full of spirit.

The Jews with Jesus understood that if he literally meant eat my body, that would be cannibalism and that was forbidden in the law.

Simon Peters outstanding reply to Jesus's question ' Are you going to leave? '
"Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

Again ' Words ' words that lead to faith, not deeds or ritual acts.
 
First of all, I think that most people would agree that Christ certainly has the power to do that
This is so very wrong. Yes most people believe fairy tales instead of Scripture, that is true and that is what God says in Scripture.
Christ does not have the power to make people cannibles nor to do something so contrary to His Father's Plan and His Father's Word.

If Christ was disobedient at all, in any one even tiny thing, then He could never save anyone.
 
this has been the constant teaching
from the opponents of the truth. The enemies of Jesus.
do not accept this teaching of Christ.
No, what you call "this teaching of Christ" is directly a false teaching opposed to Jesus.
When they know Jesus, when they know the truth,
Not one follower of Jesus accept the false teachings of the apostate groups.
 
"What are the consequences of NOT believing in the Real Presence, of NOT accepting the literal meaning of His words"? See Mark 16:16
"16 Whoever believes " the false gospel is on the road to destruction.
Do not receive anyone who brings a false gospel, nor eat with them, lest you participate in their sin (and judgment) . They are not permitted in the assembly of the righteous in Christ Jesus.
 
When Christ, at the last supper, said, “This is My Body – This is My Blood”,was He talking only symbolically or did He really mean that the bread and wine were to be miraculous transformed into His real Flesh and Blood, while still retaining the outward appearance of bread and wine?

Matthew 26:26-28
26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."
27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you;
28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.


In this account, the bread Christ and his disciples had been eating and the wine they'd been drinking Jesus suddenly took up and declared to be his body and blood. Did any of his disciples gag and splutter in horror at the thought they had been eating the actual flesh and blood of their beloved Master? Did any of them cry out in shock, asking for clarification? Did any of Christ's disciples cringe at the thought that Jesus had been eating himself right along with them? No.

Luke 22:14-20 (NASB)
14 When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him.
15 And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;
16 for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
17 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, "Take this and share it among yourselves;
18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes."
19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.


Here, Jesus had more to say about "eating his flesh and drinking his blood" than in Matthew's Gospel. In verse 19, Jesus plainly stated that consuming the bread he offered to his disciples was "in remembrance of me." This accords with the apostle Paul's words:

1 Corinthians 11:23-26
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.


Here it is evident that the Lord's Supper - Communion - is a ritual of memorial, the bread and blood symbolic of Christ's sacrifice on the cross of Calvary, nothing more.

First of all, I think that most people would agree that Christ certainly has the power to do that, and the Catholic response to this question has always been a resounding YES!

Christ has the power to do many things that he hasn't done. He hasn't made winged unicorns that poop rainbows, for example, or clouds made of cotton candy, or trees that sound out the Hallelujah Chorus whenever a breeze blows through them. But he could have. So?

Yes, He was talking literally and NOT symbolically, and yes, this has been the constant teaching of the Church, from apostolic times till now.

Nope. And what has been the teaching of the Roman Catholic church has not been the "constant teaching" of The Church, the Body and Bride of Christ, that extends well beyond the aegis of some senior citizen in fancy robes and a big hat.

Ever since the words of consecration were first spoken at the Last Supper, the apostles and their successors have believed in the literal meaning of Christ's words, believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

As the quotations from Matthew and Luke clearly show, they thought no such thing, their bland response to Christ's declaration about the bread and wine demonstrating that they understood him to be speaking entirely figuratively.

However, despite all the scriptural evidence to the contrary, most protestants (non-Catholic Christians if you prefer) do not accept this teaching of Christ.

No, I accept Christ's teaching without qualm or denial. What I don't accept is the false teaching of the church of Rome that has used the Lord's Supper, not merely as the memorial it is, but as a means of making itself spiritually essential as the mystical distributor of the "true" flesh and blood of Christ in Communion.

Ask yourself this question. "Why do I not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Is it a concept that is too difficult to understand (A "hard saying" as the Jews put it, as they walked away), or is it just because I have been told this all my life, but never seriously studied the scriptures to see if what I was taught was correct, or could it be that really deep down inside I just don’t want to believe it?

Perhaps you ought to ask yourself some questions, too:

Why, when there is obviously no such thing as transubstantiation taught in Scripture, do I believe it?

Am I so afraid of the cultic power of the church of Rome, or so long confined by its false teachings, that I can't think for myself when I consider what the Bible actually says?

Or could it be that deep down inside, I like the idea of religious cannibalism?

Therefore, first question - "What would be the consequences to my life if I choose to believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist, if I choose to accept the literal meaning of Christ's words at the Last Super"?

If I take Christ's words literally, I will recognize that he was speaking about a symbolic memorial of his Atonement at Calvary. See above.

John 6:53-63
53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”
61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this?
62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.


So, where in this account does Jesus take out a knife and begin carving off bits of himself for folks to eat and draining himself of blood for his disciples to drink? Nowhere. Because, as Jesus said at the very end of the above quotation from the Gospel of John, "the flesh is no help at all." It is the Holy Spirit, the non-physical, immaterial Third Person of the Godhead, who gives life, not religious cannibalism. See: Titus 3:5, Romans 8:9-16, 1 John 4:13, John 14:16-17, etc. He does this by making of every true disciple of Jesus his "temple" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) in himself, not the Lord's Supper, imparting spiritual life to all of God's born-again children.
 
Last edited:
When Christ, at the last supper, said, “This is My Body – This is My Blood”,was He talking only symbolically or did He really mean that the bread and wine were to be miraculous transformed into His real Flesh and Blood, while still retaining the outward appearance of bread and wine?

First of all, I think that most people would agree that Christ certainly has the power to do that, and the Catholic response to this question has always been a resounding YES! Yes, He was talking literally and NOT symbolically, and yes, this has been the constant teaching of the Church, from apostolic times till now. Ever since the words of consecration were first spoken at the Last Supper, the apostles and their successors have believed in the literal meaning of Christ's words, believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

However, despite all the scriptural evidence to the contrary, most protestants (non-Catholic Christians if you prefer) do not accept this teaching of Christ. They say our lord was just talking symbolically. For all those in this category I would like to suggest the following as a subject of serious reflection.

Ask yourself this question. "Why do I not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Is it a concept that is too difficult to understand (A "hard saying" as the Jews put it, as they walked away), or is it just because I have been told this all my life, but never seriously studied the scriptures to see if what I was taught was correct, or could it be that really deep down inside I just don’t want to believe it?

Therefore, first question - "What would be the consequences to my life if I choose to believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist, if I choose to accept the literal meaning of Christ's words at the Last Super"?

And then, following from the above question, we have - "What are the consequences of NOT believing in the Real Presence, of NOT accepting the literal meaning of His words"? See Mark 16:16 for the answer.
I wish you had placed this in the THEOLOGY thread.
It's a great topic and will soon turn into a real discussion.
 
I have taken communion in both the Catholic and Anglican churches and to be somewhat crass both hosts were wafers and not flesh and both cups were wine and not blood. The elements w were spiritual representations only
You should not receive communion in the CC unless you believe in the REAL PRESENCE.
 
Evidence to the contrary of false rcc views as supplied by Jesus.
John6: Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”


Note Jesus talks about eating his flesh and drinking his blood!
Yet he says " it is the spirit that gives life, the flesh counts for nothing. That his words are full of spirit.

The Jews with Jesus understood that if he literally meant eat my body, that would be cannibalism and that was forbidden in the law.

Simon Peters outstanding reply to Jesus's question ' Are you going to leave? '
"Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

Again ' Words ' words that lead to faith, not deeds or ritual acts.
Then Christ did not die on the cross after all the flesh avails nothing???
 
A consequence of such a belief is the need for God to constantly do two miracles.
To transform bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus and another miracle so that the body and blood of Jesus is to all appearance just bread and wine.
God has to do this every time communion is celebrated.

The fact that the bread and wine remains unchanged shows us that it is a memorial meal.
Does Paul believe it?
1 cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?

20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
 
The flesh is weak

The flesh he is talking about is our flesh weak and slow to believe

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
 

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