[_ Old Earth _] What Brought About Order In The Universe

[PDoug]

According to the Big Bang Theory, the universe suddenly came into being out of nothing. Beyond this main point being consistent with the story of creation, another significant point that many people overlook, is that a huge amount of sophisticated organization in the universe took place as it unfolded. The question is, where did all this organization come from? Why isn't there utter choas and complete unpredictability in the universe?

The most reasonable explanation is that there are intelligent agents (who we cannot see) that establish order in our universe - and that their actions are all orchestrated by a super-intelligent being (which explains the high level of coordination that we see). How else can we let go off of a book in mid air and expect it to land on the floor everytime (rather than behave randomly), if not for the action of an intelligent agent creating the order which allows this to happen? How else can we expect our vast ecosystem to work in harmony, if not for the actions of myriad intelligent agents establishing order, allowing this take place? My point is that the notion of spirits (many of whom are angels) is not at all far fetched, and is in fact the most reasonable explanation for the organization we see in our world and in the universe, which we all take for granted.

Let's approach this argument from another perspective. Suppose we were to see a hole in the earth, a nest, a thatched hut, a cement house, and a cathedral, wouldn't we surmise that increasing levels of intelligence were behind the organization and construction of these abodes. Does it not follow then that the sophisticated organization and ordering we see in our universe are from beings exhibiting significant intelligence? The fact of the matter is that the various elements that we see in our universe are actually spirits (this includes the sun, the earth, the moon, and the stars) who exhibit properties and behavior. This is the most reasonable explanation for the way things are - and has been described that way in scriptures for thousands of years (e.g. Book of Enoch chapters 72-82). That is what Paul meant in the following scritpture:

Romans 1

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesâ€â€his eternal power and divine natureâ€â€have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€â€who is forever praised. Amen.

FYI: Below is an example of the scriptures showing where elements such as the earth are actually spirit(s).

2 Esdras

4 Ezra. 6

[11] I answered and said, "O sovereign Lord, if I have found favor in thy sight,
[12] show thy servant the end of thy signs which thou didst show me in part on a previous night."
[13] He answered and said to me, "Rise to your feet and you will hear a full, resounding voice.
[14] And if the place where you are standing is greatly shaken
[15] while the voice is speaking, do not be terrified; because the word concerns the end, and the foundations of the earth will understand
[16] that the speech concerns them. They will tremble and be shaken, for they know that their end must be changed."
[17] When I heard this, I rose to my feet and listened, and behold, a voice was speaking, and its sound was like the sound of many waters.
[18] And it said, "Behold, the days are coming, and it shall be that when I draw near to visit the inhabitants of the earth,
[19] and when I require from the doers of iniquity the penalty of their iniquity, and when the humiliation of Zion is complete,
[20] and when the seal is placed upon the age which is about to pass away, then I will show these signs: the books shall be opened before the firmament, and all shall see it together.
[21] Infants a year old shall speak with their voices, and women with child shall give birth to premature children at three and four months, and these shall live and dance.
[22] Sown places shall suddenly appear unsown, and full storehouses shall suddenly be found to be empty;
[23] and the trumpet shall sound aloud, and when all hear it, they shall suddenly be terrified.
[24] At that time friends shall make war on friends like enemies, and the earth and those who inhabit it shall be terrified, and the springs of the fountains shall stand still, so that for three hours they shall not flow.
[25] "And it shall be that whoever remains after all that I have foretold to you shall himself be saved and shall see my salvation and the end of my world.
[26] And they shall see the men who were taken up, who from their birth have not tasted death; and the heart of the earth's inhabitants shall be changed and converted to a different spirit.
[27] For evil shall be blotted out, and deceit shall be quenched;
[28] faithfulness shall flourish, and corruption shall be overcome, and the truth, which has been so long without fruit, shall be revealed."
[29] While he spoke to me, behold, little by little the place where I was standing began to rock to and fro.

One last thing. All science does is map out the ordering that we see in our universe that has been established by God through a myriad of spirits. However the ordering can be changed, if someone has the authority to command that this be done. This is why Christ and the disciples were able to perform the miracles and wonders that they did: because they had authority over the spirits that govern our world, and were able to command them to do whatever they wished.

 

[reznwerks]

According to the Big Bang Theory, the universe suddenly came into being out of nothing.
I don't think you have it quite right. The big bang is theorized to have created our universe but having a solution or answer as to where the matter came from in the first place to create the big bang has never been answered or attempted to be answered.

Beyond this main point being consistent with the story of creation, another significant point that many people overlook, is that a huge amount of sophisticated organization in the universe took place as it unfolded. The question is, where did all this organization come from? Why isn't there utter choas and complete unpredictability in the universe?
WHY is there organization? How do you know it's organized? Organized is MANS definition. The way the universe functions corresponds to the way man sees it. Has anyone ever seen a disorganized universe?

The most reasonable explanation is that there are intelligent agents (who we cannot see) that establish order in our universe - and that their actions are all orchestrated by a super-intelligent being (which explains the high level of coordination that we see).
Why is that a "reasonable" explanation? Has anyone ever seen "intellegent agents". Does anyone know that the main goal of these "intellegent agents" is to create things that correspond to mans idea of order and coordination? Again the "high level" of coordination that you imply is mans or your definition. Ask any scientist an opinion of the universe and how it could be made better and I am sure you will find many answers.

How else can we let go off of a book in mid air and expect it to land on the floor everytime (rather than behave randomly), if not for the action of an intelligent agent creating the order which allows this to happen?
Allows it to happen or is that just the way things are? Your analogy is the reason that religon always loses when it come to science and reality facts and faith.

How else can we expect our vast ecosystem to work in harmony, if not for the actions of myriad intelligent agents establishing order, allowing this take place?
The fact that it does take place is the reason we expect the vast ecosystem to work in harmony. It just does. Do we understand it all? No. We don't have to and we may never know all the answers. It's OK.

My point is that the notion of spirits (many of whom are angels) is not at all far fetched, and is in fact the most reasonable explanation for the organization we see in our world and in the universe, which we all take for granted.
It most certainly is far fetched when you have not one shred of evidence that their existance is real let alone you portend to know their motives and goals.

Let's approach this argument from another perspective. Suppose we were to see a hole in the earth, a nest, a thatched hut, a cement house, and a cathedral, wouldn't we surmise that increasing levels of intelligence were behind the organization and construction of these abodes.
No not really. Unless we saw the builders of these things and shown what they were used for their is not one hint as to what these things were and how they were used.


Does it not follow then that the sophisticated organization and ordering we see in our universe are from beings exhibiting significant intelligence?
No again. If man were not here do you think the universe would end? I don't think so. Would order (as you term it) cease to exist? I don't think so. Is the creator an order freak? I don't think so.

The fact of the matter is that the various elements that we see in our universe are actually spirits (this includes the sun, the earth, the moon, and the stars) who exhibit properties and behavior.
They are not spirits. They are entities (non living) that exist and create an effect on their surroundings. Our sun has very little influence on the planets in the outer level of our solar system and virtually no influence beyond that. If our sun died out it would be a big deal to us but that is about it as far as the universe is concerned.


One last thing. All science does is map out the ordering that we see in our universe that has been established by God through a myriad of spirits. However the ordering can be changed, if someone has the authority to command that this be done. This is why Christ and the disciples were able to perform the miracles and wonders that they did: because they had authority over the spirits that govern our world, and were able to command them to do whatever they wished.
No one outside the bible testifies to Jesus , the apostles, or any of the miracles that supposedly happened. Secondly many before Jesus and the apostles claimed similar miracles as well and they are not taken seriously.The creator of the universe cannot alter the laws of nature since God himself in the bible claims to know all , be all and is all powerful. To set in motion from the beginning his master plan which he proclaimed as very good and then change it due to pleadings from underlings insults the creator of the universe.

 

[PDoug]

According to the Big Bang Theory, the universe suddenly came into being out of nothing.
I don't think you have it quite right. The big bang is theorized to have created our universe but having a solution or answer as to where the matter came from in the first place to create the big bang has never been answered or attempted to be answered.

This link backs up what I say. Further, this link says the following:

"... The beginning of the universe is calculated from the Big Bang which occurred some 15-18 billion years ago. Before the Big Bang there was nothing. Not space, not time, not matter, not energy. There was not even a region outside of the universe into which the Big Bang could explode its universe into! This condition is known as a SINGULARITY...."

Beyond this main point being consistent with the story of creation, another significant point that many people overlook, is that a huge amount of sophisticated organization in the universe took place as it unfolded. The question is, where did all this organization come from? Why isn't there utter choas and complete unpredictability in the universe?
WHY is there organization? How do you know it's organized? Organized is MANS definition. The way the universe functions corresponds to the way man sees it. Has anyone ever seen a disorganized universe?

You've got to be kidding. You are not able to tell organization from chaos and disorder? Order and disorder are not subjective. In disorder, no system can exist. No atom; no molecule; no system of planets; and most of all: no life.

The most reasonable explanation is that there are intelligent agents (who we cannot see) that establish order in our universe - and that their actions are all orchestrated by a super-intelligent being (which explains the high level of coordination that we see).
Why is that a "reasonable" explanation? Has anyone ever seen "intellegent agents". Does anyone know that the main goal of these "intellegent agents" is to create things that correspond to mans idea of order and coordination? Again the "high level" of coordination that you imply is mans or your definition. Ask any scientist an opinion of the universe and how it could be made better and I am sure you will find many answers.

All that you are saying is irrelevant. Order can only be established by one or more intelligent agents. There is no way around it. You cannot have a universe that exhibits astounding sophistication in its organization, then say that intelligent beings did not establish it - and also maintain it.

 

[Featherbop]

According to the Big Bang Theory, the universe suddenly came into being out of nothing.

I think the correct statement is,
"The matter for the big bang came from nothing." : :wink:

The question is, where did all this organization come from?

From an unimaginably immense and organized master mind. Just like you see a cleaned and straightened room. An unorganized and untidy person does not make a clean, straightened room.

Why isn't there utter choas and complete unpredictability in the universe?

A question best directed at an atheist.

The most reasonable explanation is that there are intelligent agents (who we cannot see) that establish order in our universe - and that their actions are all orchestrated by a super-intelligent being (which explains the high level of coordination that we see).

Could you name who you are talking about? Angels created under God's command?

How else can we let go off of a book in mid air and expect it to land on the floor everytime (rather than behave randomly), if not for the action of an intelligent agent creating the order which allows this to happen? How else can we expect our vast ecosystem to work in harmony, if not for the actions of myriad intelligent agents establishing order, allowing this take place? My point is that the notion of spirits (many of whom are angels) is not at all far fetched, and is in fact the most reasonable explanation for the organization we see in our world and in the universe, which we all take for granted.

Why are you giving credit to angels for order instead of God? Angels had/have nothing to do with the order of the universe, and in fact may, under God's command bend the rules somewhat(or at least appear to), to perform God's plans or miracles.

Let's approach this argument from another perspective. Suppose we were to see a hole in the earth, a nest, a thatched hut, a cement house, and a cathedral, wouldn't we surmise that increasing levels of intelligence were behind the organization and construction of these abodes.

Or...The same high intelligence created all of them.....

The fact of the matter is that the various elements that we see in our universe are actually spirits (this includes the sun, the earth, the moon, and the stars) who exhibit properties and behavior. This is the most reasonable explanation for the way things are - and has been described that way in scriptures for thousands of years

You just really lost me here.

 

[PDoug]

The most reasonable explanation is that there are intelligent agents (who we cannot see) that establish order in our universe - and that their actions are all orchestrated by a super-intelligent being (which explains the high level of coordination that we see).

Could you name who you are talking about? Angels created under God's command?

Yes, angels under God's command.

How else can we let go off of a book in mid air and expect it to land on the floor everytime (rather than behave randomly), if not for the action of an intelligent agent creating the order which allows this to happen? How else can we expect our vast ecosystem to work in harmony, if not for the actions of myriad intelligent agents establishing order, allowing this take place? My point is that the notion of spirits (many of whom are angels) is not at all far fetched, and is in fact the most reasonable explanation for the organization we see in our world and in the universe, which we all take for granted.

Why are you giving credit to angels for order instead of God? Angels had/have nothing to do with the order of the universe, and in fact may, under God's command bend the rules somewhat(or at least appear to), to perform God's plans or miracles.

My point is that the story of creation as it is given in the scriptures, wherein God created the heavenly hosts and other spirits to implement and maintain creation, becomes most convincing when someone examines the ordering that takes place in the universe - which has to come from invisible intelligent sources. I'm not glorifying angels and other spirits per se. I'm just saying the ordering that we see is consistent with the description in the scriptures of God assigning responsibilities to various spirits, in a highly coordinated way. E.g.:

Book of Enoch (Ethiopian Version)

41.3 And there my eyes saw the secrets of the flashes of lightning and of the thunder. And the secrets of the winds, how they are distributed in order to blow over the earth, and the secrets of the clouds, and of the dew; and there I saw from where they go out, in that place. And how, from there, the dust of the earth is saturated.
41.4 And there I saw closed storehouses from which the winds are distributed, and the storehouse of the hail, and the storehouse of the mist, and the storehouse of the clouds; and its cloud remained over the earth, from the beginning of the world.
41.5 And I saw the Chambers of the Sun and the Moon, where they go out, and where they return. And their glorious return; and how one is more honoured than the other is. And their magnificent course, and how they do not leave their course, neither adding nor subtracting from their course. And how they keep faith in one another, observing their oath.
41.6 And the Sun goes out first, and completes its journey at the command of the Lord of Spirits - and his Name endures forever and ever.
41.7 And after this is the hidden, and visible, path of the Moon, and it travels the course of its journey, in that place, by day and by night. One stands opposite the other, in front of the Lord of Spirits, and they give thanks, and sing praise, and do not rest, because their thanksgiving is like rest to them.
41.8 For the shining Sun makes many revolutions; for a blessing and for a curse. And the path of the journey of the Moon is for the righteous light but for the sinners; darkness. In the Name of the Lord, who has created a division between light and darkness, and has divided the spirits of men, and has established the spirits of the righteous, in the name of His Righteousness.
41.9 For no Angel hinders, and no power is able to hinder, because the judge sees them all, and judges them all Himself.
42.1 Wisdom found no place where she could dwell, and her dwelling was in Heaven.
42.2 Wisdom went out, in order to dwell among the sons of men, but did not find a dwelling; wisdom returned to her place, and took her seat in the midst of the Angels.
42.3 And iniquity came out from her chambers; those whom she did not seek she found, and dwelt among them, like rain in the desert, and like dew on the parched ground.
43.1 And again I saw flashes of lightning and the stars of Heaven, and I saw how He called them all by their names, and they obeyed Him.
43.2 And I saw the Balance of Righteousness, how they are weighed according to their light, according to the width of their areas, and the day of their appearing. And how their revolutions produce lightning, and I saw their revolutions, according to the number of the Angels, and how they keep faith with one another.

The fact of the matter is that the various elements that we see in our universe are actually spirits (this includes the sun, the earth, the moon, and the stars) who exhibit properties and behavior. This is the most reasonable explanation for the way things are - and has been described that way in scriptures for thousands of years

You just really lost me here.

Everything from the largest phenomenon to the smallest (e.g. subnuclear particles) that we observe that displays organization, must be governed by spirits who establish and maintain their respective spheres of responsibility. This realization makes you see just how staggering God's creation is, and that we live in a universe, not mostly of dead matter, but rather of living spirits, many of whom exhibit material properties in ways that serve God's end.

 

[cubedbee]

This link
backs up what I say.

Read the paragraph below from the homepage of that website. Some whacko put this together. Just because something is written on the internet doesn't mean it's written by a credible source or has any factual basis.

Welcome to the new look Kheper website, over 1500 pages, dedicated to a new scientific and esoteric evolutionary paradigm concerning the nature of existence and its infinite metamorphoses, and the transformation of the Earth and the planetary consciousness to a post-singularity state of Supramental (Infinite Truth-Consciousness) divinisation

Further, this link says the following:

"... The beginning of the universe is calculated from the Big Bang which occurred some 15-18 billion years ago. Before the Big Bang there was nothing. Not space, not time, not matter, not energy. There was not even a region outside of the universe into which the Big Bang could explode its universe into! This condition is known as a SINGULARITY...."

Even credible sites can sometimes be wrong. There is indeed a singularity at the beginning. But a singularity is not nothing. The definition is "Astrophysics. A point in space-time at which gravitational forces cause matter to have infinite density and infinitesimal volume, and space and time to become infinitely distorted." Far from being nothing a singularity is an infinitely dense point that contains all the matter in our universe.

You've got to be kidding. You are not able to tell organization from chaos and disorder? Order and disorder are not subjective. In disorder, no system can exist. No atom; no molecule; no system of planets; and most of all: no life.

But on what basis are you assigning a likelihood of our universe being ordered? We have no other universes to compare with, and so we cannot know. Theoretically, if the atheists are right and there is no God, there could be some mechanism in the timeless eternality that exists outside of our universe, for the automatic creation of universes--and something in the mechansim makes it a complete certainty that every universe will be ordered. It's a fair fetched scenario, but used as an example to show that we have no way of assigning a probability to the existense of the ordered universe we see. It is an unknowable question, and cannot be used to prove the existence of God.

All that you are saying is irrelevant. Order can only be established by one or more intelligent agents. There is no way around it. You cannot have a universe that exhibits astounding sophistication in its organization, then say that intelligent beings did not establish it - and also maintain it.

This is not true. Have you ever grown sugar crystals? The crystal becomes highly ordered, without any guiding intelligence, but simply by following the laws of nature. We do not know the laws of the timelessness outside of our universe and so cannot say what is or is not likely. We base our concept of likelihood with respect to complexity and order from what we have observed throughout our lives---most things not made and maintained by man are disordered. But we have never, and can never, observe that which is outside our universe, and so we have no basis to say that the order we see is in any way exceptional and requiring of some guiding intelligence.

 

[Drew]

I think these discussions really go nowhere useful (and I say that as one who is deeply interested in these topics).

Let's take the "design" position: On such a view, an intelligent agent (e.g. God) is responsible for the order that we see in our universe (by the way, I do think we can safely say that our universe is ordered - I do not believe that a judgement to that effect is arbitrary). Often the argument is presented in a very unsophisticated manner, specifically in the sense that the pro-design person explicitly or implicitly simply argues that order requires a designer, that complexity and order "just do not happen by chance". But by the very terms of that argument the pro-design person is vulnerable to the following objection: Since the intelligent agent is presumably a richly structured, complex entity in itself, He (She) must have been created. So I think that the design argument just "pushes the mystery back one step".

On the other hand, the "naturalists" effectively assume that some kind of "natural law" exists that allows for the emergence of our physical universe out of nothingness or they assume the eternal existence of our universe (at least in one form or another). Either way, something is being simply "inserted" as an assumption to start the ball rolling. To me, this is more or less as much of a force-fit as positing the existence of an uncaused God that ordered the universe.

In short, I think we are on the wrong track trying to debate this topic the way we always do. However, the only 2 alternatives that I see are not all that hopeful.

The first alternative is that we come up with new concepts, new fundamental ways of mentally representing the fundamental mechanisms of our world. For example, it would be nice to "escape" from the confines of the "every effect requires a cause" concept and yet not "cheat" by simply saying simplistic things like "God, by definition, does not require a cause" or "you just have to accept that the universe has always existed as an uncaused entity". If there are more useful concepts out there, they seem very hard to discover.

The second alternative is to effectively throw in the towel and admit the limited human mind does not have the power, even in principle, to come up with explanations for our origins that tie up all the loose ends. I think that we implicitly assume that if something can be figured out in principle, then we (humans) can do so. But presumably our powers to mentally model and reason about the physical world have some kind of upper bound determined by the finite complexity and representational power of a human brain. Why should we assume that all models of the World are within our grasp?

My suspicion is that the latter scenario is true - our minds are simply not capable of providing an account for the existence of the universe that is free from glaring contradiction or that does not require a "brute force" assumption. I hope I am wrong.

Now there may naturalists who argue for logical necessity - that somehow the universe "has no choice" but to exist and to be ordered. However, I think this explanation is equally unsatisfying - where does this logical necessity "come from"?

 

[PDoug]

Further, this link says the following:

"... The beginning of the universe is calculated from the Big Bang which occurred some 15-18 billion years ago. Before the Big Bang there was nothing. Not space, not time, not matter, not energy. There was not even a region outside of the universe into which the Big Bang could explode its universe into! This condition is known as a SINGULARITY...."

Even credible sites can sometimes be wrong. There is indeed a singularity at the beginning. But a singularity is not nothing. The definition is "Astrophysics. A point in space-time at which gravitational forces cause matter to have infinite density and infinitesimal volume, and space and time to become infinitely distorted." Far from being nothing a singularity is an infinitely dense point that contains all the matter in our universe.

From what I gather, there appears to be varying views about what exactly happened at the start of the Big Bang. This link for example says the following:

"... The "inflationary scenario", developed by Starobinsky and by Guth, offers a solution to the flatness-oldness problem and the horizon problem. The inflationary scenario invokes a vacuum energy density. We normally think of the vacuum as empty and massless, and we can determine that the density of the vacuum is less than 1E-30 gm/cc now. But in quantum field theory, the vacuum is not empty, but rather filled with virtual particles:
.
.
.
The space-time diagram above shows virtual particle-antiparticle pairs forming out of nothing and then annihilating back into nothing...."

Let's step away from the argument that our universe started from nothing, since there appears to be no concensus among scientists about exactly how things unfolded initially at the start of the Big Bang. Besides, that is not really the point of this thread.

You've got to be kidding. You are not able to tell organization from chaos and disorder? Order and disorder are not subjective. In disorder, no system can exist. No atom; no molecule; no system of planets; and most of all: no life.

But on what basis are you assigning a likelihood of our universe being ordered? We have no other universes to compare with, and so we cannot know. Theoretically, if the atheists are right and there is no God, there could be some mechanism in the timeless eternality that exists outside of our universe, for the automatic creation of universes--and something in the mechansim makes it a complete certainty that every universe will be ordered. It's a fair fetched scenario, but used as an example to show that we have no way of assigning a probability to the existense of the ordered universe we see. It is an unknowable question, and cannot be used to prove the existence of God.

You've got to be kidding. Are saying that there are no orderings in atoms, molecules, biological systems, planetary systems, galaxies, etc.?

As far as man can perceive, without an intelligenct agent to implement order in an environment, there can be no order at all. Period. Not even the smallest amount. Also, every ordering that we see in our universe suggests a purpose behind the ordering. However, only intelligent beings display purpose.

Let's take an example. If someone was to walk every day past a pile of rocks that were randomly scattered alongside the road; then one day he found the rocks rearranged in a highly ordered fashion, wouldn't he surmise that there was an intelligent being behind the ordering of the rocks, who did the ordering to accomplish some purpose? Why then do we look at our universe that shows astounding levels of organization (far, far beyond what we can do ourselves) then conclude that there is no intelligence behind its organization?

As for the idea that there is some mechanism that cranks out universes: this doesn't hold water because the mechanism would require ordering to begin with, in order to function; and the mechanism would yield products of immense ordering, which by our own observations, is only possible by the intervention of intelligent beings. In other words, for a mechanism to crank out universes that display immense amounts of organization, the mechanism would have to be crafted by a super intelligent being to begin with, and the mechanism would have to crank out intelligent beings to establish the ordering in every universe it produces.

All that you are saying is irrelevant. Order can only be established by one or more intelligent agents. There is no way around it. You cannot have a universe that exhibits astounding sophistication in its organization, then say that intelligent beings did not establish it - and also maintain it.

This is not true. Have you ever grown sugar crystals? The crystal becomes highly ordered, without any guiding intelligence, but simply by following the laws of nature. We do not know the laws of the timelessness outside of our universe and so cannot say what is or is not likely. We base our concept of likelihood with respect to complexity and order from what we have observed throughout our lives---most things not made and maintained by man are disordered. But we have never, and can never, observe that which is outside our universe, and so we have no basis to say that the order we see is in any way exceptional and requiring of some guiding intelligence.

Okay. Imagine an engineer building a prototype. He draws his design using a CAD program on a PC workstation. He does this by turning on his PC; opening the CAD program; then using it to draw and test his design. He prints out his design; calls his boss concering his progress; goes over to his boss' office; turns on the light; leaves copies of the design prints on his boss' desk; turns off the light; then goes back to his office. During the various stages of the engineer's development of his prototype, and the engineer providing his boss with an update of the result, the engineer relied on his PC, CAD application, printer, phone, light switches, etc. working. Should the engineer believe that all these things that he relied on came into being by chance (especially when they showed relatively sophisticated ordering/design) or should he say it is virtually impossible that these things came into being by chance - due to their ordering. Now, if the universe that we live in displays by far, vastly more sophisticated ordering than the things that we build (e.g. a plank of wood on the molecular level) why do you think it is unreasonable to believe intelligent agents are behind their ordering? My point is that it is unreasonable to say that the ordering you see in sugar crystals (just like the ordering you see in atoms, or molecules, or entire ecosystems) takes place without the influence of intelligent beings - because without intelligent beings establishing order, order simply cannot exist.

 

[Quath]

My two cents.

Order is a tricky word. It means one thing when dealing with entrophy and another when we think of structure.

So lets just look at structure. What makes us think something was designed? Usuaully complexity. But we have to be careful. If you look at a snowflake, it lookes like it was carved or designed. But we know that simple rules can create complex stuff.

So look at humans. They are pretty complex.. but just a little more complex than a chimpanzee, which are slightly more complex than a rat.... fish... jellyfish.... single cell... virus... So it looks like with a simple algorithm, you could get from one for to another. Evolution provides that algorithm. So a simple rule (survival of fittest) gives rises to complexity (and simplicity since viruses and single cell things are around).

If you look at the structure of the universe, it can be explained with 4 fources that appear to be different versions of each other. The differences appeat to be in the force carring particle. Force carrying particles are just particles with even symmetry that can sit on top of one another. While what we consider matter is a particle with a wave that is antisymmetric.

So the simple rules of quantum wave mechanics seems to yield complex results such as the forces which are pretty simple (4 known ones). These 4 simple forces yield complex results of congregation of matter into solar systems and galaxies. Combining the forces and quantum mechanics (simple rule) and we get nuclear fusion in a star.

So I think the difference is that a naturalist sees simplicity in rules where a creationist sees complexity in the product.

Quath

 

[Drew]

Hello PDoug:

You repeatedly assert that without an intelligent agent, there can be no order. However, I believe you simply claim that this is so. You have not (yet) argued your case. You have not shown how it is that order requires an intelligent agent. By the way, I happen to believe that the universe is the product of intelligent design.

 

[PDoug]

Hello PDoug:

You repeatedly assert that without an intelligent agent, there can be no order. However, I believe you simply claim that this is so. You have not (yet) argued your case. You have not shown how it is that order requires an intelligent agent. By the way, I happen to believe that the universe is the product of intelligent design.

Okay. Let''s focus on what we can best see and confirm. If you saw a pile of rocks on the side of the road, do you think it is possible for the rocks to be reordered into a cathedral, without the intervention of intelligent beings, over the course of 1 year? How about 10 years? How about a million or a billion years? Virtually eveyone would reply no to this question. So then, how can anyone reasonably believe that the ordering behind an atom, molecule, crystal, etc. which requires vastly more skill and resources, have been established by a means other than intelligent agents we are unable to directly perceive?

Let's, from another angle, look your question, "Can ordering only be established by intelligent beings?" (It is important when you are thinking about these things to start with a blank slate.) Imagine that you are right at the beginning of the Big Bang. What creates the order in which energy emanates? What creates the order in which we see matter formed? (Remember, the designs or orders of these things, are not trivial.) And I could go on and on. The point is that even at its most elemental level, the universe showed sophisticated ordering from the start; and there is nothing in the way we perceive things, that would let us conclude that ordering (particularly as sophisticated as the type we see in the universe) can take place absent the influence of intelligent beings.

 

[Quath]

The ordering of the early universe was uniformity. But we don't asociate uniformity with intelligence or design.

But look at it this way. If I see a God, I will wonder why He is so ordered? What must have created Him? If can exist with no cause, then you believe that order can exist with no cause. Just call that "order" the Big Bang instead of God and we would be agreeing.

Quath

 

[reznwerks]

According to the Big Bang Theory, the universe suddenly came into being out of nothing.
I don't think you have it quite right. The big bang is theorized to have created our universe but having a solution or answer as to where the matter came from in the first place to create the big bang has never been answered or attempted to be answered.

This link backs up what I say. Further, this link says the following:

"... The beginning of the universe is calculated from the Big Bang which occurred some 15-18 billion years ago. Before the Big Bang there was nothing. Not space, not time, not matter, not energy. There was not even a region outside of the universe into which the Big Bang could explode its universe into! This condition is known as a SINGULARITY...."

The site does indeed say it it but I cannot find the source of the site not that it would matter. The big bang in my understanding and logic assumes that all matter was like a rock and from it then exploded. The rock or matter if you will has never been explained as to its source. "Nothing" cannot explode or cause a big bang.

Beyond this main point being consistent with the story of creation, another significant point that many people overlook, is that a huge amount of sophisticated organization in the universe took place as it unfolded. The question is, where did all this organization come from? Why isn't there utter choas and complete unpredictability in the universe?

WHY is there organization? How do you know it's organized? Organized is MANS definition. The way the universe functions corresponds to the way man sees it. Has anyone ever seen a disorganized universe?

You've got to be kidding. You are not able to tell organization from chaos and disorder? Order and disorder are not subjective. In disorder, no system can exist. No atom; no molecule; no system of planets; and most of all: no life.

Thats right. Chaos and disorder are mans definition. If you see order that is our observation of it and nothing more. If a certain order or pattern of activity is needed to function that is all it means and is in no way an indication of a superior being. It's just the way it is.

The most reasonable explanation is that there are intelligent agents (who we cannot see) that establish order in our universe - and that their actions are all orchestrated by a super-intelligent being (which explains the high level of coordination that we see).

Why is that a "reasonable" explanation? Has anyone ever seen "intellegent agents". Does anyone know that the main goal of these "intellegent agents" is to create things that correspond to mans idea of order and coordination? Again the "high level" of coordination that you imply is mans or your definition. Ask any scientist an opinion of the universe and how it could be made better and I am sure you will find many answers.

All that you are saying is irrelevant. Order can only be established by one or more intelligent agents. There is no way around it. You cannot have a universe that exhibits astounding sophistication in its organization, then say that intelligent beings did not establish it - and also maintain it.

Sure I can, I just did. Only in your mind is this an impossibility.Look at an automobile engine. It works because we know from observation how certain chemicals will react when confronted with the right catalyst and we know how metal will withstand the forces produced by these chemicals. God did not make the engine , man did.An automobile engine is organization but their is no evidence that God did it. The fact that we have what you call organization is proof of the phenomena. The lack of an answer to why does not mean that a God exists.

 

[Drew]

Hello PDoug:

Let me start out by re-iterating that I am a fan of the notion of Intelligent Design.

However, I would respectfully submit that the arguments you are making require a lot more work to be convincing.

Lets start with the rocks and the cathedral. Your example is open to the criticism that it is not the right analogy. The fact is that what needs explaining is the particular universe we are in (and its ordered structures), not a mysteriously assembled cathedral. Of course, the cathedral example has powerful intuitive appeal. However, I think that the appeal lies in the fact that it is difficult to conceive how the cathedral could come to be except through the action of an intelligent agent.

I will not disagree with this in respect to the cathedral. But to be more rigorous, you (we?) need to be able to respond to the criticism that, as far as the actual universe we live in is concerned, there are indeed identifiable mechanisms that can cause a system to proceed from an unordered state to an ordered one without the intervention of an intelligent agent. Low entropy sunlight streaming into a primordial earth can indeed cause more ordered structures to develop out of simpler ones. And what about laboratory experiments where a "soup" of simple molecules is zapped with electricity (simulating lightning) and organic molecules are produced?

You also appeal to the inherent ordering of an atom, molecule, or crystal and suggest that these things are more "ordered" or complex than a cathedral. Even if this is true, you still need to rule out a naturalistic explanation. As it is, your argument appears to be more or less the "argument from incredulity" - it just seems impossible that so much sophistication and order could not arise without an intelligent agent behind it.

About your remarks about the sophitisticated ordering of the early universe. You simply claim this shows that an intelligent agent must be at work. However, you need to be able to confront the "many universes" theory - namely that universes spring into being "randomly" all the time with "arbitrary" (i.e. not "designed") natural laws and arbitrary values for appropriate initial conditions. This is a possible state of affairs. Zillions of these non-designed universes would yield utter chaos, but perhaps one would randomly get the kind of laws and initial conditions that lead to order and then life. After all, one of the zillions of ways to randomly arrange your rocks will indeed yield a cathedral.

As I have said on many threads, I am a supporter of the intelligent design viewpoint. But the nature of the problem simply does not allow for a simple case to be made - it will be an incredibly demanding task to make a serious case for intelligent design. My intuition tells me ID is right, but a robust case has yet to be made.

 

[Quath]

I read an article recently about a specific breed of fish. It looked at two main changes. In the ocean the fish is very bony but slow. In the fresh water, it is less boney and fast.

Now a person could look at that and say that God decided to make one version for the ocean where they would need more protection and one for the fresh water where they would need to be quick. So to some this may look like it was a sign of intelligence.

However, the article showed that the mutation of one gene accounted for this change. So evolution explains how the bony fish are in the ocean and the fast fish are in the lake. So this looks like a simple process that does not require intelligence to make it happen.

So I think there is where a lot of the problems are. It is too easy to look at something and see design. Yet design is much more complicated than observing simple rules play out to give the same result.

Quath

 

[PDoug]

Drew,

My point is simple: if rocks that are randomly dispersed can only be ordered into a cathedral by the work of intelligent beings, why don't you believe that the ordering that appears in natural systems can only be produced and maintained by intelligent beings as well? Stated another way, why do you think one set of rules apply when it comes to the ordering of materials into cars, cathedrals, shoes, etc. (through the actions of intelligent beings) but another set of rules apply in the ordering of atoms, molecules, plants, animals, planets, stars, etc. (where intelligent beings do not have to be involved)?

P.S. To everyone. For now I'm primarily responding to Drew, because Drew identified the fundamental issue of my argument: can order only be established by intelligent beings?

 

[PDoug]

I read an article recently about a specific breed of fish. It looked at two main changes. In the ocean the fish is very bony but slow. In the fresh water, it is less boney and fast.

Now a person could look at that and say that God decided to make one version for the ocean where they would need more protection and one for the fresh water where they would need to be quick. So to some this may look like it was a sign of intelligence.

However, the article showed that the mutation of one gene accounted for this change. So evolution explains how the bony fish are in the ocean and the fast fish are in the lake. So this looks like a simple process that does not require intelligence to make it happen.

So I think there is where a lot of the problems are. It is too easy to look at something and see design. Yet design is much more complicated than observing simple rules play out to give the same result.

Quath

I'll comment on your post more fully later. However, evolution is at best, a poor hypothesis about how the world developed.

 

[cubedbee]

However, evolution is at best, a poor hypothesis about how the world developed.

You are at best belittling the life work of millions of honest people who have developed the amazingly robust and well substantiated hypothesis, and in place offering your own unsubstantiated claim that it is false.

 

[Drew]

Drew,

My point is simple: if rocks that are randomly dispersed can only be ordered into a cathedral by the work of intelligent beings, why don't you also believe that the ordering that appears in natural systems can only be produced and maintained by intelligent beings as well? Stated another way, why do you think one set of rules apply when it comes to the ordering of materials into cars, cathedrals, shoes, etc. (through the actions of intelligent beings) but another set of rules apply in the ordering of atoms, molecules, plants, animals, planets, stars, etc. (where intelligent beings do not have to be involved)?

Hi PDoug:

Thanks for your answer. For starters, I do think that it is certainly possible that the rocks could be ordered into a cathedral without intelligent intervention - but of course intelligent agency is also a possible explanation (and a much more credible one unless zillions of years are involved along with some mechanism that could at least move the rocks around).

My point was not that there are 2 sets of rules. Rather my point was that the cathedral example may not have been the right analogy, partly because it was so underspecified. May I humbly ask why you have not commented on the mechanisms that I identified (low entropy sunlight + the lightning in the organic soup example) about how order can come into being without intelligent agency? Aren't these pretty strong pieces of real evidence that support what I am saying?

Without knowing more details about the context in which your rocks exist (what mechanims might exist to toss them up into the air (earthquake perhaps?)), how complex the cathedral actually is, how much time is involved, etc.) I cannot comment on the relative weight I would accord to a "naturalistic" explanation as compared to a "design" explanation.

But that's beside the point. I still claim that the identification of real mechanisms in our universe (e.g. the low-entropy sunlight and the lightning) that allow for order to be built up "naturally" along with the very real possibility of other universes is a solid plausibility case for a naturalistic explanation of order (I don't believe this, but that is a much longer story).

Are you able to directly confront these elements of my argument?

P.S. Thanks for not descending into name-calling and empty rhetoric (that happens a lot around here).

 

[PDoug]

Drew,

My point is simple: if rocks that are randomly dispersed can only be ordered into a cathedral by the work of intelligent beings, why don't you also believe that the ordering that appears in natural systems can only be produced and maintained by intelligent beings as well? Stated another way, why do you think one set of rules apply when it comes to the ordering of materials into cars, cathedrals, shoes, etc. (through the actions of intelligent beings) but another set of rules apply in the ordering of atoms, molecules, plants, animals, planets, stars, etc. (where intelligent beings do not have to be involved)?

Hi PDoug:

Thanks for your answer. For starters, I do think that it is certainly possible that the rocks could be ordered into a cathedral without intelligent intervention - but of course intelligent agency is also a possible explanation (and a much more credible one unless zillions of years are involved along with some mechanism that could at least move the rocks around).

My point was not that there are 2 sets of rules. Rather my point was that the cathedral example may not have been the right analogy, partly because it was so underspecified. May I humbly ask why you have not commented on the mechanisms that I identified (low entropy sunlight + the lightning in the organic soup example) about how order can come into being without intelligent agency? Aren't these pretty strong pieces of real evidence that support what I am saying?

As you stated before, this discussion boils down to whether ordering can take place in an environment, without the intervention of intelligent beings. The reason I gave the example of ordering rocks into cathedrals, and materials into cars, shoes, etc., is because it is plain that natural processes (which I believe are ordered by intelligent beings) factor at the most, lightly into these situations. (Remember when you perform an experiment, you always want to shield out factors which may taint the experiment.) Therefore you tend to get better results looking at the situations I sighted, rather than in the entropy situation that you sighted (for where there is at least the possibility of intelligent beings intricately affecting the outcome of that situation.)

Regarding your comment that it may be possible for natural processes to create a cathedral at a specific location over a zillion years: you can't be serious. That would imply that natural processes could create a 1987 IBM PC on the top of Mount Everest over a zillion years, and by extension, any and all things could be created everywhere over the course of a zillion years.

I therefore don't see where your charge is credible that the situations I sighted are 'underspecified'. If there are a large cross section of situations where it is plain that the only practical way ordering can be established is by the intervention of intelligent beings, it follows that in every situation where we see ordering, intelligent beings must be involved - we just can't directly perceive them.