What did 2 Thessalonians mean to the Thessalonians?

[Matthew24:34]

Paul wrote this second letter to the first-century Thessalonians. What did he clearly mean to convey to them? How would they have understood his words? I would like to see objective exegesis here rather than application! Thanks!

Matthew24:34

 

[Matthew24:34]

No one has an answer?

Matthew24:34

 

[Matthew24:34]

Let me start. First of all we know that Paul, along with Silvanus and Timothy, sent their greetings in this actual letter to "the church of the Thessalonians" (2 Thess. 1:1). Does anyone disagree that this was the physical church that existed in that first-century, pre-A. D. 70 city of Thessalonica?

Matthew24:34

 

[Matthew24:34]

Whose persecutions and tribulations is Paul addressing here? To whom is Paul first and foremost referring when he says "your" and "you?"

Matthew24:34

 

[Osgiliath]

I think it's quite obvious no one wants to play your game anymore Matthew. Many of us have entertained your dopey dogma long enough. Anyway, are you a glutton for punishment or something? How many times and how many ways can you watch your vain doctrine go down in flames before you call it a day? Do you really enjoy this? I don't see the point, and I don't see anything positive or "Christlike" coming from your inexorable attempt at preterist proselytization of other forum members. In every one of your posts, your only goal is to convert with relentless zeal; nothing else. I recognized your subterfuge cloaked in piety right from the start, and I've been closely observing your modus operandi. Your kind are easy to spot - "My grandma, what big teeth you have". Do you not get it - "We do not like green eggs and ham, we do not like them Sam-I-am". We like our eggs the way God created them, and we like Lamb, not ham........or baloney.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Mt 24;42-43
Watch therefore;for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
But know this,that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come,he would have watched,and would not have sufferd his house to be broken up.

Preterism teaches its students how not to watch.It teaches there is nothing to watch.
But I believe it does serve a purpose in the fact that the scripture that states the day of the Lord will come upon some as a thief in the night should be forfilled.What better way for the day of the Lord to come upon them this way than they would believe it has already occured?
It is alot like the pretrib in that it also teaches there is nothing to watch.

1 Thess 5;2-3
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say ,Peace and safety;then sudden destruction cometh upon them,as travail upon a woman with child;and they shall not escape.

It must be forfilled in someone so why shouldnt it be forfilled in them who teach others not to watch?

 

[Matthew24:34]

Paul (Silvanus and Timothy) addressed "the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

They give thanks to God for the believers of Thessalonica because of their "exceedingly" growing faith. The Thessalonians not only love one another but their faith "abounds" toward one another. Paul boasts of them among the other "churches of God" because in spite of the "persecutions and tribulations" they were enduring, their faith remained strong and they were exhibiting patience.

The "manifest evidence" of their faith and patience in the midst of these persecutions and trials confirmed that God had righteously judged them and counted them "worthy of the kingdom of God." It was for that kingdom that they suffered. It was the Jews of that generation who persecuted them because of the believers' belief in a heavenly kingdom that opposed the earthly kingdom which the unbelieving Jews sought. They rejected the kingdom Christ had come to offer and eventually succeeded in putting Him to death. Their hatred for the Church was no less intense and purposeful. "If they hated Me, they will hate you also!"

Paul confirmed that "it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation" those very Jews of that first-century, pre-A. D. 70 world who were troubling those very Thessalonians whom Paul is addressing. Another aspect of God's righteous judgment was to give those very Thessalonians "rest with us." By "us" is implied not just Paul, Silvanus, Timothy and the Thessalonians but all believers of that time who were suffering similar persecutions and trials. It is clear that Paul is stating that such vengeance against THEIR enemies and rest for THEM was to come "when the Lord Jesus" was "revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire." This revealing with His mighty angels was to come in their lifetime!

What is this revealing from heaven that was to come in their lifetime? How did God exact His vengeance against those of that generation who persecuted and brought suffering to those Thessalonians of that generation? How did God give them rest? Christ came and accomplished His judgment against that very generation of Jews whom He had condemned in Matthew 23 when He returned in A. D. 70 with His "mighty angels" and "in flaming fire" and through the Roman armies made THEIR house desolate. With that persecuting, hateful, unbelieving generation of Jews who did not "know God" and did not "obey the gospel" out of its way, the Church was given rest.

In this same time frame, eternal punishment and "everlasting destruction" were brought against their persecutors. They were separated forever from His "presence" and "from the glory of His power." This was to happen when He came, "in that Day." It is that same time in which He was to come to those very Thessalonians to give THEM rest and to punish THEIR persecutors. His revealing and His coming are the same and the timing is the same--that first-century generation. He took vengeance on those very Jews of that day and was glorified in those very believers of that first-generation. All who believe would "admire" the Lord and He would be glorified because the testimony of Paul and Silvanus and Timothy was believed among those first-century believers of Thessalonica.

In Christ, Matthew24:34

 

[Matthew24:34]

Osgiliath: I am not angry but am very sad right now--not because you attacked me personally, but because you unjustifiably attacked a fellow believer who is simply trying to study the Word objectively and in context. I would expect such assaults from the world but not from the body! I have a hard time understanding why someone would want to do that, Osgiliath?

In Christ's love, Matthew24:34

Shilohsfoal: I would really like to stay on the topic of the thread which is 2 Thessalonians 2. Thank you.

Matthew24:34

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Osgiliath: I am not angry but am very sad right now--not because you attacked me personally, but because you unjustifiably attacked a fellow believer who is simply trying to study the Word objectively and in context. I would expect such assaults from the world but not from the body! I have a hard time understanding why someone would want to do that, Osgiliath?

In Christ's love, Matthew24:34

Shilohsfoal: I would really like to stay on the topic of the thread which is 2 Thessalonians 2. Thank you.

Matthew24:34

Ok
I was just showing how the day of the Lord comes upon people as a thief in the night by your own doctrin.I believe you are convinced that your beliefs are true and I see no reason why you should know the time of Jesus coming.You say that Jesus is only speaking to those of that generation in the gospels.His sheep hear his voice and they follow him.By your own testimony,he doesnt speak to you.
I'll leave you now to your own delusions.Carry on.

 

[Matthew24:34]

When a passage of Scripture is written specifically to a certain person or group of people about things that are going to directly affect them, that is how it must be understood. For example, Jesus told His first-century disciples right there with Him to get a colt upon which He could ride. THEY were to get the colt; we are not to get a colt for Him. Yet in that account, we get a further glimpse of Jesus' deity in that He knew that a colt would be tied exactly where he said it would be!

I do not understand why so many believers today cannot see that a letter written to specific people, addresses the needs and the historical setting of those very people. If we read a letter addressed to someone else about things that involve that person to whom the letter is addressed, do we insist that the contents involve us? Of course not! Osgiliath and Shilohsfoal, this is BASIC Bible Study 101! You do not like what 2 Thessalonians clearly says because it assaults your preconceived ideas. I cannot change that. I cannot force you to look honestly at a passage of Scripture and glean its meaning from its context!

Just because something does not involve us directly, does not mean that there is not some application for us or some truth to be gained from the things endured and lived out by others!

2 Thessalonians was written TO those of that day concerning things that personally involved THEM--not us!

You have judged my motives and made character assassinations of me. I expect that from the world; I do not expect that from fellow believers who choose to attack me rather than honestly, intelligently, and skillfully exegeting the Word! What does 2 Thessalonians clearly teach, Osgiliath and Shilohsfoal--you who want to discredit me, prove me wrong WITH THE WORD!

What is the CONTEXT of 2 Thessalonians 1?

In Christ, Matthew24:34

 

[Shilohsfoal]

I made no caracter assisination.
I was pointing out how the day of the Lord comes upon people as a thief in the night.
You believe the kings of the east have already been gatherd into Armegedon and you believe great hail stones fell from heaven and Babylon the great was destroyed.I dont believe you Mathew.If you had any historical evidence you might sound creditable but you have no evidence that such a thing ever happened.

Rev 16;15
Behold I come as a thief,Blessed is he that watcheth,and keepeth his garmets,lest he walk naked,and they see his shame.

Now you say the above verse took place in 70 ad but at the same time you say the jews were destroyed because the Romans persecuted the thesssalonians.That makes no sence whatsoever.And if you hadnt noticed the verse after this is speaking of the kings of the east being gatherd into Armegedon.The kings east of Armegedon can not be Rome because Rome is west of Armegedon.

The kings of the east are mentioned in rev 16;12.
They are gatherd into Armegedon in Rev 16;16
rev 16;16
And he gatherd them together into a place called in the hebrew tongue Armegedon.
And again.When did these great hail stones fall upon Babylon the great in Rev 16;21?
And dont bother saying these things has nothing to do with the day of the Lord because thats when the scriptures say Jesus comes as a thief in the night.The same time the man of sin is destroyed in thessalonians.

Now I dont care if you dont watch .Jesus said to watch and you say that I shouldnt watch.
Im not going to believe you and not believe Jesus.Besides,You dont have a clue as to what I am watching anyways.Just because no sign has been given you doesnt mean I havnt seen the signs of the times.I just havnt shown you the signs I speak of,nor will I.

 

[Sinthesis]

Just because something does not involve us directly, does not mean that there is not some application for us or some truth to be gained from the things endured and lived out by others!

Very good! Now perhaps you could first present how 2 Thessalonians might be applied to our lives; THEN compare and contrast that with how the book was understood by Paul's original audience.

Regardless of your motives, your current course seems shrill and appears threatening to those without your convictions. Can you show us how a preterist viewpoint does not leave the future irrelevant?

 

[Matthew24:34]

Just because something does not involve us directly, does not mean that there is not some application for us or some truth to be gained from the things endured and lived out by others!

Very good! Now perhaps you could first present how 2 Thessalonians might be applied to our lives; THEN compare and contrast that with how the book was understood by Paul's original audience.

Regardless of your motives, your current course seems shrill and appears threatening to those without your convictions. Can you show us how a preterist viewpoint does not leave the future irrelevant?

Sinthesis: MY course appears "shrill?" Did you read the posts by Osgiliath and Shilohsfoal, Sinthesis? Threatening? What have I done? I started a thread about looking at the context of a passage by using proper hermeneutical and exegetical principles. Osgiliath and Shilohsfoal ignored the entire subject of my thread and began to attack ME! Yet it is I who seems shrill and threatening? What?

What does 2 Thessalonians clearly say, Sinthesis? I can show those two over and over and over until I am blue in the face how 2 Thessalonians and other passages that are not directed at us but were directed to those very flesh-and-blood people of that day, but they will not allow it!

IF they would like to start their own thread concerning the APPLICATION to US in 2 Thessalonians, they are more than welcome to do that.

Sinthesis: Did you see the Ark being built? Did you live upon the flood waters until they receded? Did you see the plagues brought upon Egypt? Did you see the water turned into blood? Did you see the frogs and the locusts and did you hear the wails of the mothers who had lost their firstborn? Did you see the parting of the Red Sea, Sinthesis? Did you live in the desert on the manna that God provided? Did you walk around the walls of Jericho and see the city walls crumble? Did you see the miracles of Jesus? Did you see the dead raised up, the lame made to walk, and the blind made to see? No? Then what possible relevance do anything of those things have to you?

None of those things were for you directly, Sinthesis. Do you gain nothing from the record of them?

Again, I began this thread to STUDY this passage in its context. If anyone wants to, according to the actual words of the text, point out how I am misunderstanding 2 Thessalonians, please do so. No one tried to do that. They just simply invaded MY thread in order to attack me. Is that how we debate?

I am sorry that you feel that I am shrill and threatening--that is not my intent. Can I not simply begin a serious thread for serious Bible study without being attacked?

I am going to continue looking at this book in its context. Any who wish to join in by using proper, intelligent, and skillful Bible study techniques are welcome to join in. It says what it says! We FIRST determine what the words meant to the original audience THEN we do application.

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Just because something does not involve us directly, does not mean that there is not some application for us or some truth to be gained from the things endured and lived out by others!

Very good! Now perhaps you could first present how 2 Thessalonians might be applied to our lives; THEN compare and contrast that with how the book was understood by Paul's original audience.

Regardless of your motives, your current course seems shrill and appears threatening to those without your convictions. Can you show us how a preterist viewpoint does not leave the future irrelevant?

It appears you are out of luck.Mathew is so convinced that all prophecy is in the past that he cant even understand the present much less the future.He is conviced that even the jews were destroyed though they are in Israel today and theres no possible way by his point of veiw can he even show you where that nation is in the scripture.Even if the US goverment were to move its embassy to Jerusalem,as the king has mentioned,Mathew couldnt show you where that is in scripture.
Mathews belief renders even Israel's conflicts with the muslim kings as irrelevant in his eyes because he cant understand the prophecies concerning those events.

How could Mathew know about future events when he cant understand the things taking place before his own face?

 

[Osgiliath]

Matthew, come on; assaults? Everything I said was true. Your method of operation is indeed "shrill"; and only seeks to convert others to your line of thinking; period! (listen to other members as well). You're not simply trying to study the Word objectively - are you kidding? Yes, accuse me of being un-Christlike all you want. Sorry, but it is very Christlike to confront the proponents of false doctrines, and deal with them quickly and firmly. It is a serious matter, and one I don't take lightly. To do so would be very un-Christlike.

2 Timothy 2:17 “And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.â€Â

Matthew 24:23 "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


2 Timothy 4:2 “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.â€Â

1 Timothy 4:1 “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devilsââ‚Â

 

[Vic C.]

Sorry, but it is very Christlike to confront the proponents of false doctrines, and deal with them quickly and firmly. It is a serious matter, and one I don't take lightly. To do so would be very un-Christlike.

I cannot disagree with this. I do disagree with the methods though. Scripture says:

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Translation:

I'd like to see members post scripture to prove their position or disprove others, no matter what that position may be.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Vic C.
I cannot disagree with this. I do disagree with the methods though.

Yeah, maybe the Dr. Seuss was a bit much . I'm not out to hurt anyone's feelings or anything, but sometimes you have to scratch your fingernails on the chalkboard to get someone's attention. It was required here unfortunately, because Scripture was/is being perpetually ignored in thread after thread. If a member's particular Scripture references are addressed over and over, they should at least have the courtesy to do the same in return. One sided debates clearly illuminate one's motives.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Since my critics cannot deal with the actual text of 2 Thesssalonians, I will continue--

2 Thessalonians 1:11-12

Paul makes it clear that it is the "good pleasure" of God's goodness that is of utmost importance. He prays that the Thessalonians would be counted by God to be worthy of their calling as such worthiness fulfills that ultimate purpose. Also of utmost importance to Paul is the glorifying of the name of the Lord Jesus Christ in the lives of the Thessalonians. All that is done is "according to the grace" of "God and the Lord Jesus Christ."

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Paul continues to explain the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ--the coming he mentioned in the first chapter which he stated was to include their rescue from their tormentors and the punishment of their tormentors in their lifetime! Paul uses the plural possessive in describing the "gathering to Him" ("our"). Paul and those very Thessalonians were to be an actual and literal part of that gathering. It is a reference to Jesus' own words in Matthew 24:31. Jesus clearly stated that His angels would gather His elect from the four winds--in THAT generation (Mat. 24:34). The same Greek word for "gathering" is used. Paul is addressing the issue of deceivers having come among them who were attempting to shake their faith in that gathering together that was to include them personally. They were not to be shaken in their minds or be "troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter." They were not to be deceived by those teaching that Christ had already come (enesteken--"is come" "is present"). Whenever this term (enesteken) it refers to the present and not to the future. Correct translation--"that the Day of the Lord IS come."

It is obvious that the Thessalonians believed that He was coming in their lifetime. If they had not believed that, they could not possibly have been deceived that he had already come. Paul does not correct that assumption because he himself has just taught them that Christ was coming in their lifetime to rescue them and punish their oppressors. It was right that they believed that. To reinforce that belief, Paul explains to them what must happen before that Day which was to occur in their lifetime could take place.

The falling away is not clearly defined by Paul. It was, however, something which Paul and those Thessalonians recognized and understood. It was something they were to expect before the Lord could return to them. t was apparently not anything new to the Thessalonians. Paul does not explain it--he simply states it, expecting them to understand. It is very likely that which Jesus predicted in His Olivet Discourse--Matthew 24:10, 12. "And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another" (vs. 10). ". . . lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold." All of this was to take place in THAT generation. Paul gives a detailed description of the Apostasy in his letters to Timothy (1 Tim. 4:1-3; 2 Tim. 3:1-9).

Man of Sin--to be continued!

Matthew24:34

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Matthew24:34
They were not to be deceived by those teaching that Christ had already come (enesteken--"is come" "is present"). Whenever this term (enesteken) it refers to the present and not to the future. Correct translation--"that the Day of the Lord IS come."

Oh please! Matthew, we could strive over words forever if we tried to dissect every prophecy they cite and argue the limits of their possibilities. I have already precisely demonstrated in another thread that the very same words you claim must mean "near" and "shortly" are actually referring to long periods of time; and you did not provide a coherent Biblical explanation as to "why". You're missing the big picture by not realizing that ANY interpretation which directly contradicts express Bible statements is not within the realm of possibility. It fails the first test of any interpretation, the matter of overall Biblical harmony.

Originally posted by Matthew24:34
It is obvious that the Thessalonians believed that He was coming in their lifetime. If they had not believed that, they could not possibly have been deceived that he had already come. Paul does not correct that assumption because he himself has just taught them that Christ was coming in their lifetime to rescue them and punish their oppressors.

Gross speculation (if I may say so). So what if the Thessalonians believed Jesus was coming in their lifetime. So has every generation. Let me get this straight - your conclusion based on this is that Christ indeed returned in 70 AD? In order for that to be true there must exist an abundance of historical evidence documenting that our early Christian forefathers believed that Jesus returned in the 1st century; no? Sure, some of them believed that the first part of the Olivet prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st Century. However, ALL OF THEM held that the second portion would be fulfilled at Christ's yet future return. Can you explain that? Please explain to me why there are no secular historical records of Christ's return? And don't give me the standard preterist line about Josephus claiming that what transpired in 70 AD was His return. That's a joke! Read Acts 1:11 and Revelation 1:7. And while you're at it, read Luke 17:20-24 (and do not stop reading at 17:20-21, but continue reading through verse 24) "For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day." This is the MOST important event to take place in the entire history of the world. There should be verifiable written records by a host of Church fathers and secular historians. Where are they?

All of your views are biased and skewed because you filter the Scriptures through what you suppose happened in 70 AD. You plant your feet on the ground of history and tradition, rather than the Word of God. You begin with 70 AD, and work backwards, forcing Scripture to fit into your pre-determined hypothesis. Your foundation rests on a historical event, an event that rests "outside" of the Scriptures. I suppose that Christians who don't have the benefit of a historical education will never know the real truths of the Christian faith. That is too bad Matthew, I have always felt Scripture to be sufficient.

 

[Matthew24:34]

The words are clear--

It was not just what the Thessalonians and Paul believed was to happen, it was what Paul, as an inspired apostle taught was to happen--TO THEM.

How much clearer could Paul have stated it? THOSE actual, flesh-and-blood Thessalonians of THAT first-century generation were to be given rest AT HIS APPEARING. Where is my pre-determined hypothesis? The words say what they say. THOSE very persecutors of THOSE very first-century saints were to be judged and punished by the LORD AT HIS APPEARING and AT HIS COMING!

Does it not clearly say that God was going to punish those who troubled THOSE VERY first-century Thessalonians to whom Paul was writing? People can falsely accuse me all they want of having preconceived ideas, but the text is clear. Nothing is being read into it! Strangely, those who accuse me of having preconceived ideas and reading them into this text are themselves the ones with presuppositions that will not permit them to see what is plainly written there!

WHAT DO THE WORDS SAY? I didn't write them? WHAT DO THEY SAY? It is what the words of the Scriptures say that leads me to A. D. 70--not the other way around!

THOSE very Thessalonians to whom Paul is writing were to be given rest from those of their generation who were troubling THEM. When? AT HIS APPEARING! That is WHAT IT SAYS, Osgiliath! Where is my preconceived hypothesis as you falsely accuse me?

Again, we need to be careful of what we accuse others lest we ourselves be found guilty!

I have brought NO "preconceived hypothesis" to this passage. Again, IT SAYS WHAT IT SAYS! What does it say, Osgiliath? You can clearly understand Tom Bombadil; why don't you understand Paul?

Matthew24:34