What did 2 Thessalonians mean to the Thessalonians?

[parousia70]

That’s a real stretch. Let’s make every wisp of every cloud, every leaf on every tree, and every blade of grass where His feet left the ground exactly the same while were at it ;).

You make my point

I think the intended meaning of that verse is quite intuitive.

Me too. Funny that we have opposite intuition about it though....

No one is saying that there is an absence of any spiritual aspect. We’re saying there is more than JUST the spiritual aspect when Christ returns. If it was JUST a spiritual return, how would that be any different than what occurred on Pentecost Day in Acts chapter 2? In fact, how would that be any different than accepting and believing in Jesus Christ?

Depends.
Are we talking of the Acts 1:11 return or the Revelation 1:7 "Every eye will see" return?

I'll start with the every eye will see return. We can take up the acts 1 return after that.

The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20). Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

 

[Osgiliath]

Oh my. I don’t even know where to start with this one. Since it is so beyond the pale, and I just don’t have the time or patience, I’ll keep this brief for now.

Originally posted by parousia70
"The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father"

That’s all well and good, but there is one small problem, every eye did NOT see Him. In fact, NO ONE saw Him!

Revelation 1:7 “Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.â€Â

Did you get that? “EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM†It seems logical to expect ONE historian (apart from Josephus) to record seeing Jesus with such a prediction. You have offered none. I am wondering why you cannot see the reprehensible lack of proof for your assumption? Do you realize that not a single early church father believed that Jesus returned in 70 A.D.? NOT ONE. Do you realize that not a single period historian recorded the return of Jesus? NOT ONE. EVERY EYE? Your presumption is based on what you suppose happened in 70 AD, and there is no evidence whatsoever. With no proof of your conjecture your doctrine is null and void at its very conception. Jesus simply did not come. He must have meant something different than what you assume He did.

Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

Well then let's go back to my original question. If this was spiritual only, how was this parousia different from what happened on Pentecost Day, or when a person accepts and believes in Jesus Christ? If the apostles were alive when this happened (most weren’t), and they already had the Spirit of God within them, what was the difference? What changed? Something had to, or you would have to conclude that every time a person accepts Christ there is another coming of Christ identical to the parousia that transpired in 70 AD.

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by parousia70
"The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father"

That’s all well and good, but there is one small problem, every eye did NOT see Him. In fact, NO ONE saw Him!

Did you even read what you just quoted?

The problem is not mine, and it's not that every eye did not see him. The problem is yours in that St John is NOT teaching what you contend he is. Rather he is teaching EXACTLY what the OT prophets before him taught in their teachings of the nature of God's previous "Comings" in Glory.

You need to provide sound biblical reason why you, Osgil, interpret the OT phrases "God rides a swift could...and was seen by the eyes of all nations" in polar opposite fashion to the NT phrase "HE is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see"

Did you get that? “EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIMâ€Â

Did Every eye see God's holy arm in Isaiah as the prophet said in Is 52:10?
IF so, where is the historical proof?

It seems logical to expect ONE historian (apart from Josephus) to record seeing Jesus with such a prediction. You have offered none. I am wondering why you cannot see the reprehensible lack of proof for your assumption?

I am going by concrete scriptural precedent for the nature of God's previous comings in great glory and judgment. You argue against that set precedent without Biblical instruction to do so.

Do you realize that not a single early church father believed that Jesus returned in 70 A.D.? NOT ONE. Do you realize that not a single period historian recorded the return of Jesus? NOT ONE. EVERY EYE?

You are wrong on this, but I will not use extra biblical sources to prove what I contend the Bible says. You may seek extra Biblical proof, but I will not succumb to your desire that appeal to an authority outside (and thus above) of scripture to prove my point.
Scripture alone is enough.
Apparently You need to stick your fingers in his side before you will believe.

[quote:3nckc5sm]Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

Well then let's go back to my original question. If this was spiritual only, how was this parousia different from what happened on Pentecost Day, or when a person accepts and believes in Jesus Christ? If the apostles were alive when this happened (most weren’t), and they already had the Spirit of God within them, what was the difference? What changed? Something had to, or you would have to conclude that every time a person accepts Christ there is another coming of Christ identical to the parousia that transpired in 70 AD.[/quote:3nckc5sm]

Simple.
AD 70 was a coming in JUDGEMENT.
You deny that Jesus is the Stone of Matt 21?

 

[Matthew24:34]

I’ve got no Biblical issue with partial preterism. It’s usually a little further than I choose to go in many cases, but almost all Christians (futurists included) are partial preterists to some degree. We all realize that some prophecies were indeed fulfilled in 70 AD. However, to claim that ALL PROPHECIES were fulfilled is absurd, and a clear indication of not rightly dividing God's Word. Nonsense.

On this point I am in full agreement.
All Christians are preterist. we only vary by degree.

Indeed, even the Full preterist must admit to the ongoing and future fulfillment of certain bible prophesy. For there are some prophesies, by their very nature,that have no terminus point and are in a constant state of ongoing Fulfillment, each day bringing a greater fulfillment than the day previous. Isaiah 9:7 comes to mind as one of them.

Greetings parousia70: Full preterists not only must admit that there are continuing fulfillments of certain aspects of God's kingdom, they already do admit that. I know of no full preterist that denies that. That is why the Bible is still very much relevant. It does not become irrelevant (according to futurists) because the eschatological promises concerning Christ's second coming have ALL been fulfilled.

God continues to add to His kingdom through His grace in the new birth. God continues to be involved in the affairs of men and is still exercising His eternal attributes in our world. God is still sovereign. God still sets up kingdoms and brings down kingdoms. God still saves! I find no indicate in the Bible that this will come to an end. If it will, God has not revealed that to us.

Welcome to the discussion, Parousia70!

Matthew24:34

 

[parousia70]

Greetings parousia70: Full preterists not only must admit that there are continuing fulfillments of certain aspects of God's kingdom, they already do admit that. I know of no full preterist that denies that. That is why the Bible is still very much relevant. It does not become irrelevant (according to futurists) because the eschatological promises concerning Christ's second coming have ALL been fulfilled.

Hya Matt!
Thank you for expounding upon that. Your point is well taken, although it opens up the potential for a dialogue on cessation vs continuation of spiritual gifts from a preterist perspective.... perhaps a new thread for that one day, yes?

God continues to add to His kingdom through His grace in the new birth. God continues to be involved in the affairs of men and is still exercising His eternal attributes in our world. God is still sovereign. God still sets up kingdoms and brings down kingdoms. God still saves! I find no indicate in the Bible that this will come to an end. If it will, God has not revealed that to us.

Indeed, whatever changes God may (or may not) have in store for the cosmos, the time and details have not been revelaed to man. (Deut 29:29)

Welcome to the discussion, Parousia70!

It's good to be here! Thanks to Google!

 

[Vic C.]

Hya Matt!
Thank you for expounding upon that. Your point is well taken, although it opens up the potential for a dialogue on cessation vs continuation of spiritual gifts from a preterist perspective.... perhaps a new thread for that one day, yes?

That would be interesting, considering the multitude of threads we have ion certain spiritual gifts lately. I'd like to see the the preterist view is on them for clarification.

 

[Osgiliath]

Osgiliath wrote:
I’ve got no Biblical issue with partial preterism. It’s usually a little further than I choose to go in many cases, but almost all Christians (futurists included) are partial preterists to some degree. We all realize that some prophecies were indeed fulfilled in 70 AD. However, to claim that ALL PROPHECIES were fulfilled is absurd, and a clear indication of not rightly dividing God's Word. Nonsense.

Matthew24:34 wrote:
because the eschatological promises concerning Christ's second coming have ALL been fulfilled.

I was ALSO referring to eschatological promises Matt. Let me rephrase: To claim that ALL PROPHECIES were fulfilled (ESCHATOLAGICAL INCLUDED) is absurd, and a clear indication of not rightly dividing God's Word. Nonsense.

Originally posted by parousia70
Simple.
AD 70 was a coming in JUDGEMENT.

I agree with you there. However, the aforementioned verse; Revelation 1:7 was not referring to 70 AD. In fact, I don’t believe ANY of the book of Revelation refers to 70 AD. Why? Because what supposedly happened in 70 AD does not at all align with what is written. I believe the word "soon" in Revelation 1:1 means exactly what it says when the word is placed within the context of the revelation which occurs, as do many prophecies in Daniel, at the appointed time of the end. Since few, if any of the prophecies spoken of in Revelation occurred in 70 AD, there are no other possibilities.

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by parousia70
Simple.
AD 70 was a coming in JUDGEMENT.

I agree with you there.

You agree with me that AD 70 was a coming of Christ in Judgment?
Where in scripture would you say that AD70 Coming of Christ in Judgment is prophesied as a Coming of Christ in Judgment??
Do you believe Jesus is the Stone of Matt 21:40-45 that came and crushed those wicked men to powder?

However, the aforementioned verse; Revelation 1:7 was not referring to 70 AD. In fact, I don’t believe ANY of the book of Revelation refers to 70 AD. Why? Because what supposedly happened in 70 AD does not at all align with what is written.

How so?
The language John uses is not new. It is derived from the OT prophetic language used to describe the multiple "Day of the Lord" events that preceded AD70.
Lightnings, Visible Cloud comings of God, Arrows going forth from heaven, Skies darkening, Stars falling, Moon into Blood, earthquakes, mountains cleaving in two, etc... all are common prophetic speak describing the fall of nations in OT times. We have countless examples in the OT that set the precedent.

Since few, if any of the prophecies spoken of in Revelation occurred in 70 AD, there are no other possibilities.

See above.

 

[parousia70]

Hya Matt!
Thank you for expounding upon that. Your point is well taken, although it opens up the potential for a dialogue on cessation vs continuation of spiritual gifts from a preterist perspective.... perhaps a new thread for that one day, yes?

That would be interesting, considering the multitude of threads we have ion certain spiritual gifts lately. I'd like to see the the preterist view is on them for clarification.

As is within futurism, there is no "preterist" consensus on "cessation vs continuation" of spiritual gifts.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Paul wrote this second letter to the first-century Thessalonians. What did he clearly mean to convey to them? How would they have understood his words? I would like to see objective exegesis here rather than application! Thanks!

Matthew24:34

Many miss the message of God's coming in this in 2 Thess 2:3-12 the events that come forth, that will bring in Christ and our being changed and lifted up to him.

Some of the Thessalonians were told that Jesus had come and they were unsettled as verse 2 points out. Paul then goes on to speak about the events that must happen first.

The coming of the Lawless one,verse 9, a man who will enter into God's temple and it will be in accordance with the works of Satan, displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles and every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. Paul says these people are perishing because they refused to love the TRUTH and so BE SAVED. I Thess 1:8 says these people will be those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of the Lord Jesus.

This Man is close to being revealed and a great falling away from the faith is going to happen when he is revealed. 2 Thess 2:3. Trust the Lord for our salvation is near. :yes

Greetings, friend: But did not Paul write to those very Thessalonians of his day that THEY knew the restrainer of the Man of Sin? Was Paul then saying--You know the restrainer of this Man of Sin who is going to come thousands of years from now. He will be revealed thousands of years from now when the restrainer, whom YOU now know is taken out of the way! No, that is not what Paul taught. The restrainer AND the Man of Sin are contemporaneous! He was revealed WHEN that restrainer of THEIR day, whom THEY then knew, was taken out of the way!

What do you make of Luke 21:28, friend? Jesus had just told His disciples about the things which were to come--things that were to impact them personally. Jesus then said to THEM--"Now when these things BEGIN to happen, look up and lift up YOUR heads, because YOUR redemption draws NEAR." What were some of those things THEY were to see--signs in the sun, moon, and stars, distress of the nations on the earth, the sea and waves roaring, men's hearts failing for fear, the POWERS of the heavens shaken, and most importantly, "the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." When those things began to happen, THOSE very disciples with Him and by logical extension all saints of that day, were to look up and lift up THEIR heads because THEIR redemption had drawn near!

This is the same time frame of 2 Thessalonians 1. The Lord was going to come and bring rest from THEIR enemies of THEIR day. As Jesus taught them to do, THEY looked up and lifted up THEIR heads to see the redemption of the Lord and the punishment of THEIR persecutors at His revealing or coming in A. D. 70!

In Christ, Matthew24:34

 

[Matthew24:34]

Out of context? Exegesis? What are you smoking? Here is the CONTEXT of 2 Thessalonians 2 (your original topic). There is one subject and one object:

"2 Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him "

The one subject, exegesis, context, object, etc. is “THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST! Paul then explains the very things that must transpire BEFORE He does! PERIOD! Every sentence and every verse I have been posting is precisely referring to THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST! Nothing to “EXEGETE†there. Now, can you proceed with your analysis please so we can get this moving along. Enough with your feigned elitist smugness.

Would you please explain what the phrases "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto him" mean from your point of view?

Greetings, Sinthesis: I'm not ignoring your good questions. I am trying to tie up some loose ends first before answering! Thanks for your patience!

Matthew24:34

 

[Matthew24:34]

Originally posted by Sinthesis
Would you please explain what the phrases "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto him" mean from your point of view?

"My" point of view, or "exegesis" is irrelevant.

It is relevant as you two are both reading the same things yet coming up with different meanings. You may just want to be two fools yelling at each other about how each of you is holier than the other. Or you could first take the simple task of first defining what the phrases "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto him" used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 mean.

Is that fair, Sinthesis--accusing someone of claiming to be holier than someone else? When did I do that? Perhaps you might consider being careful lest you become guilty of that of which you accuse others? I'm just saying!

Matthew24:34

 

[Matthew24:34]

That’s a real stretch. Let’s make every wisp of every cloud, every leaf on every tree, and every blade of grass where His feet left the ground exactly the same while were at it ;).

You make my point

I think the intended meaning of that verse is quite intuitive.

Me too. Funny that we have opposite intuition about it though....

[quote:2l9i1ha7]

No one is saying that there is an absence of any spiritual aspect. We’re saying there is more than JUST the spiritual aspect when Christ returns. If it was JUST a spiritual return, how would that be any different than what occurred on Pentecost Day in Acts chapter 2? In fact, how would that be any different than accepting and believing in Jesus Christ?

Depends.
Are we talking of the Acts 1:11 return or the Revelation 1:7 "Every eye will see" return?

I'll start with the every eye will see return. We can take up the acts 1 return after that.

The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20). Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).[/quote:2l9i1ha7]

Greetings Parousia 70 for that great lesson from the OT describing the "comings" of the Lord. And thank you for putting the verses you used in their CONTEXT! I can't tell you how much I appreciate that. It is a rare thing, my friend!

So much confusion would be done away with if students of the Bible would simply take the time to understand apocalyptic, metaphorical, judgment language--language clearly understood by Jesus' first-century Jewish disciples!

Blessings in Christ, Matthew24:34

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Matthew24:34
Is that fair, Sinthesis--accusing someone of claiming to be holier than someone else? When did I do that? Perhaps you might consider being careful lest you become guilty of that of which you accuse others? I'm just saying!

I agree with this. Not to be too hard on Sinth because I understand his point, but I believe that is what these forums are for (I could be wrong). It’s just good old fashioned spirited Bible debate. Of course people will get emotional sometimes, that’s part of the game. The important thing to remember is that we are all Christians discussing God’s Word. That’s a very good thing! I consider these debates “sword sharpenersâ€Â. When you go to the gym, you don’t lay on the floor for an hour, or dress up in your Sunday best to look pretty. These forums aren’t church, they’re more like training exercises, or boot camp. Places like these are where some real work gets done. As long as God’s Word is strictly adhered to, and there are no spammers, Christian debates are ALWAYS positive in my opinion, even if they get heated. Somehow I don’t believe the Bereans were all nicey-nice all of the time when analyzing the Scriptures. I think it was probably more akin to the British Parlaiment on a hot sticky day :D.

 

[parousia70]

Greetings Parousia 70 for that great lesson from the OT describing the "comings" of the Lord. And thank you for putting the verses you used in their CONTEXT! I can't tell you how much I appreciate that. It is a rare thing, my friend!

My Pleasure Matthew. :D

If language that depicts the universal collapse of the entire cosmos is used repeatedly in the OT to describe the Fall of individual Nations at the hands of human armies, we ought be bound by that set precedent when we come across the EXACT SAME language in the NT, yes?

Indeed, we have no Biblical instruction to interprate this language in polar opposite fashion between the OT & NT, do we?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by parousia70
If language that depicts the universal collapse of the entire cosmos is used repeatedly in the OT to describe the Fall of individual Nations at the hands of human armies, we ought be bound by that set precedent when we come across the EXACT SAME language in the NT, yes?

Indeed, we have no Biblical instruction to interprate this language in polar opposite fashion between the OT & NT, do we?

You have no argument from me regarding those statements. However, it still does nothing to unequivocally prove Jesus returned in 70 AD. Again, your foundation is based on a historical event that is “outside†of the Scriptures. Your assumption is allowed to control the actual facts. Using your assumption as an exegetical basis, you make the word of God of none effect. That is the crux. I have no issues with your Old Testament references; in fact I enjoy reading them. However, it does nothing to validate your presuppositions concerning 70 AD, so you're back to square one.

 

[Alabaster]

If we believe that the epistles are written only to those they addressed in real time, then we may as well throw out the bible. What good are they epistles to us?


God has breathed the truth in them becasue they were ALSO WRITTEN FOR US! Everything written to the Thessalonians is for us as well! God speaks to the current time and to the future Church all at the same time!

Some people need to wake up and give their heads a shake.

 

[parousia70]

If we believe that the epistles are written only to those they addressed in real time, then we may as well throw out the bible. What good are they epistles to us?

Are you building an Ark?
Are you Girding your loins to flee Egypt?

By your criteria, those passages are no good to us if we are not meant to expect their fulfillment in our time so we might as well throw out the Bible, yes?

breathed the truth in them becasue they were ALSO WRITTEN FOR US!

Yes, but they were not written TO us. Just like the Flood Narrative of Genesis is written FOR us but not TO us.

ople need to wake up and give their heads a shake.

You got that right!

 

[parousia70]

You have no argument from me regarding those statements. However, it still does nothing to unequivocally prove Jesus returned in 70 AD.

But in an earlier post of yours above, You agree with me that AD70 was indeed a "coming of Christ" in Judgement.

How is it you know that?

 

[researcher]

Whose persecutions and tribulations is Paul addressing here? To whom is Paul first and foremost referring when he says "your" and "you?"

Matthew24:34

Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory.
Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to their ends.
Mat 24:32 But learn the parable of the fig tree: When its branch becomes tender and it puts out leaves, you know that the summer is near;
Mat 24:33 so also you, when you see all these things, know that it is near at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.

Matt 24 is about the tribulation of the Jews. But yes, Jesus came back and the rapture/gathering thing happened in the 1st century. Probably sometime around 70AD when Jerusalem was destroyed. At least that's what it says happened.