Osgiliath said:
Originally posted by Matthew24:34
I find your idea of exhaustive and documentation to be nothing more than posting a bunch of verses out of context
Out of context my butt! Why don't you actually read them. By stating that, you’re refuting the Word of God, not me
OK, since I have no choice in the matter, and I would rather post SOMETHING, rather than not post anything at all (and because I’m probably the only person that will participate), I’ll indulge you.
I’ll start with the very basics, and then proceed.
QUESTION # 1. Let’s just say that Paul was speaking ONLY to the Thessalonians (with no possibility of him speaking to ANYONE else); how would Paul know when Jesus was returning? Jesus didn’t even know, only the Father.
Mark 13:32 "No one knows when that day or hour will come-not the angels in heaven, not the Son, but only the Father.â€Â
Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.â€Â
Was Paul given special information that even the angels in heaven, or Jesus Himself was not?
There are many verses that indicate that the disciples were watching for the Lord to come in their lifetimes (obviously in obedience to His command to be ready). In our day, many are still obediently watching for Christ to come. The same expectancy we have for the return of Jesus in our day also existed in New Testament times, but do we mistakenly call this expectancy
a certainty that he
WOULD return in their lifetimes? It was written many times that Jesus would be
gone for a long time:
Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
James 5:7 "Be patient therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receiveth the early and the latter rain."
Luke 20:9 "Then he began to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it out to vinedressers, and went into a far country for a long time."
Luke 18:7 "And shall not God avenge his own elect, who cry day and night to him, though he beareth long with them?"
Mark 13:34 "For the Son of man is as a man taking a long journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Matthew 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept."
Matthew 25:19 "After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them."
Hebrews 10:36 "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye may receive the promise."
Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part hath happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles shall be come in."
As I said in my previous post;
“So what if the Thessalonians believed Christ was returning in their lifetime - so has every generationâ€Â. How would they know? How would Paul know?
Did Paul even claim for a certainty that Jesus would return in the Thessalonians’ lifetime? Paul was simply telling them events that
MUST happen before Jesus returned, events that HAVEN’T HAPPENED YET!
1Thessalonians 4:13 “Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord for ever .â€Â
Now, hopefully you can thoroughly answer this most basic of questions, so we can move on.
Osgiliath: Do you know how to exegete a passage of Scripture? Again, you did not exegete 2 Thessalonians. You did again exactly what I rightly accused you of. You again post a bunch of verses OUT OF CONTEXT! And again, now I have to put them in CONTEXT for you!
Here's the first point--Jesus did not know the day and the hour but He knew the GENERATION. "THIS GENERATION (THIS, THIS, THIS GENERATION, Osgiliath) will by no means pass away until ALL these things take place! (Matthew 24:34). That is what Paul knew. How do you suppose Paul knew anything that he wrote? Was he not given special revelation? He knew things others did not know--how else do you suppose he could teach the things he taught throughout his epistles?
Verse 36 is again addressed directly to THOSE disciples right there with Him. THEY were to watch, Osgiliath! WE are not the YE!
WHERE is it written that Jesus was to be gone for a long, long time, Osgiliath? Are you saying that is what Revelation 6:10 is saying? Again, you rip things out of context. Read on, Osgiliath. "And it was said to THEM that they should rest A LITTLE WHILE LONGER (Rev. 6:11)! Do you see why CONTEXT is so important? Furthermore, this is exactly what the Thessalonians were promised. This is the same avenging Paul is addressing in 2 Thessalonians 1:7. Paul told THEM that God was going to repay those who had troubled THEM at His coming! CONTEXT! It was NOT a long, long time! John was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place, Osgiliath. That is the CONTEXT!
And do you not know that those parable in the Gospels (which you again quote OUT OF CONTEXT in order to serve your own means) are dealing with the long time during which God dealt with Israel. They deal also with the many prophets that were sent to her throughout the years--prophets they killed. Read Matthew 23! That is why THEY were guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth." God's dealing with Israel was a long time--until He finally brought them to their end in A. D. 70!
AND what comes immediately after Hebrews 10:36, Osgiliath. If you had looked at the CONTEXT, you would have seen it and not misrepresented this verse. The writer of Hebrews quotes Habakkuk 2:3, 4 because it is appropriate for his time. "For YET A LITTLE WHILE, and He who is coming WILL COME and WILL NOT TARRY" (Hebrews 10:37)!
Romans 11:25--You are assuming that you know what the fullness of the Gentiles is and then use this verse to proclaim that His coming is far off! Notice that Paul expected his "brethren" to understand what it was.
AND look again at the CONTEXT of 1 Thessalonians 4. Paul says WE--in that WE he includes himself and those Thessalonians to whom he is writing! WE, WE, WE WHO ARE ALIVE! WE, WE, WE who are left until the COMING of the Lord!!!!! WE, WE, WE who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so WE, WE, WE will be with the Lord forever. Therefore, comfort one another with these words." That was THEIR comfort at that time--THEY were going to experience these things. What comfort would it be for this to occur thousands of years later. WE, WE, WE are NOT the WE, WE, WE of 1Thessalonians 4!
AND again, what about the next verse in James 5? The coming of the Lord is AT HAND," Osgiliath. It was AT HAND to those of James' day. That is the CONTEXT. Yet you rip verses out to serve your own means!
This is the last time I am going to take the time to put into context the verses which you abuse. And again, the topic of this thread is EXEGETING 2 Thessalonians. Paul was clearly telling THEM that the Lord was going to give THEM rest at His appearing and at that same time He was going to repay those very persecutors of THAT day who troubled THEM. You can ignore the CONTEXT all you want and make general statements that every generation expected that, but that is not what the passage says. You don't like what it clearly says, Osgiliath, so you refuse to exegete verse by verse. Can you do that, Osgiliath. Can you take one verse at a time and see what it says apart from your preconceived ideas?
WHAT DOES IT SAY?
AND again, if you want to discuss these others verses and your other topics, please start your own thread. THIS thread is for those who want to EXEGETE 2 Thessalonians. By the way, that is why only a few have joined into this thread. Exegesis is hard work. Most people, including yourself, do not want to take the time. It's easier to bounce around, take verses out of context that one THINKS supports his presuppositions, and form a false doctrine out of them!
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