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What Do Christians REALLY think?

SputnikBoy said:
Have you ever considered that God might be using me as a mouthpiece on this very issue, ginger? How do you KNOW He isn't?



Sput,

God never promote sin, period. I have been reading your posts and this is my observation that you are not obedient Christian. You are using the Bible conveniently. I don't even know why you bother calling yourself Christian, You don't seem to understand God and Jesus' purpose. You don't seem to know Jesus' true blessings. Jesus and His disciples' teachings are a blessing and not a curse, ALL OF THEM!
 
thessalonian said:
Have you ever considered that God might be using me as a mouthpiece on this very issue, ginger? How do you KNOW He isn't?


Nope. I don't think that's possible, considering your next paragraph.

[quote:106da]As for Jesus, I've mentioned previously that Jesus said nary a word about homosexuality. Why was that, do you think? I mean, if His followers were anything like their 21st Century counterparts wouldn't they also have been marching the streets with "Death to the fags" banners? Homosexuality woould surely have been an issue in Jesus' day enough to warrant a comment of some sort from Jesus. But, we hear of no such thing. Why? BUT, we DO hear quite a lot about immorality in general.


Look, if Leviticus and Exodus and Romans and Corinthians aren't God's word and Jesus is not the Word made flesh then we can all just stop discussing any of this because there is no God. There is no right and wrong and let's have one big flipping party! All that stuff about deaht to fags is wrong as well. It does not recognize the dignity of the human person, despite their sins. But you want to broadbrush everyone against homosexuality as saying death to fags. I find that offensive. It is interesting though that jesus never said it was wrong to say "death to fags" either if you want to consider how nonsensical your first arguement was. Likely you don't though because you think your God's mouthpiece on the matter.


Would the folks on this forum be as militant if I were to defend the local harlet? I'll bet not. You know why? Because the harlet is 'doing what comes naturally' even though immorally. Heterosexual immorality does not go against the grain NEARLY as much as 'gays' making out. Tell me I'm wrong.

Another nonsensical arguement. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, GO AND SIN NO MORE. The scriptures tell us GOD HATES SIN. Harlotry is sin and so is homosexuality. Haroltry comes about because of fallen natures. It is a corruption of our natures and therefore it is what Christ through his grace wants to heal. He wants to heal the homosexual as well. But you say no, wallow in sin homosexual because I, Rod, don't think it wil send you to hell. You of course won't be at the pearly gates to help force them in however. We cannot wallow in our sin. Christ came to free us from sin.

Anyway, must get to bed and be up bright and early for church. Take care.

Going to an SDA Church I would assume. Do tell them that you believe homosexuality is okay.

Blessings[/quote:106da]

I think they would be more concerned about the bacon sandwich that I ate a couple of days ago. That warrants a pastoral visit for sure. :wink:

Seriously though, thess, belonging to a particular denomination does not mean that one can't have their own views on an issue. When a denomination takes away my free will, that's when I'll be saying 'bye bye.'

Another thing, we spend too much time labeling people. Whenever the term 'homosexual' is used there is a connotation that they are somehow subhuman. People tend to label others negatively all the time and I'm just not into that kind of thing.

By the way, sehad, I'll get to your last post (last post? bring out the bugle) later in the day. I'm off to church (yawn) right now.
 
gingercat said:
SputnikBoy said:
Have you ever considered that God might be using me as a mouthpiece on this very issue, ginger? How do you KNOW He isn't?


Sput,

God never promote sin, period. I have been reading your posts and this is my observation that you are not obedient Christian. You are using the Bible conveniently. I don't even know why you bother calling yourself Christian, You don't seem to understand God and Jesus' purpose. You don't seem to know Jesus' true blessings. Jesus and His disciples' teachings are a blessing and not a curse, ALL OF THEM!

So ...I haven't yet made the grade of Christian according to gingercat, eh? It doesn't really bother me since I still can't come to terms with the fact that you would oust a son or daughter from your home if you found out they were 'gay'. Sorry, ginger, but if that's your brand of Christianity you can have it all to yourself. I'm serious! I'd prefer to think that you may have said that in the heat of the moment, however.

Every homosexual in the world has at least one parent and there must have been a great deal of heartache and tears in the lives of many, many people. As mentioned in my post to thess, 'gays', 'queers', and other terms (many of them used in a derogatory sense) are labels many apply to fellow human beings. That a loving son or daughter would suddenly lose their human identity and become a 'whatever' and discriminated against as a consequence is shameful. I think I'll stick to my brand of Christianity, even if it appears to be somewhat unorthodox.
 
.

Sorry for the long article, but it is very much needed to be put in plain view here so as to bring the truth to light!

Born or Bred?
Science Does Not Support the Claim That Homosexuality Is Genetic

12/21/2005
By Robert H. Knight

Homosexual activists love to insist that
The debate over homosexual "marriage" often becomes focused on whether homosexuality is a learned behavior or a genetic trait. Many homosexual activists insist that "science" has shown that homosexuality is inborn, cannot be changed, and that therefore they should have the "right to marry" each other.

Beginning in the early 1990s, activists began arguing that scientific research has proven that homosexuality has a genetic or hormonal cause. A handful of studies, none of them replicated and all exposed as methodologically unsound or misrepresented, have linked sexual orientation to everything from differences in portions of the brain,1,2 to genes,3 finger length,4 inner ear differences,5 eye-blinking,6 and "neuro-hormonal differentiation."7

Meanwhile, Columbia University Professor of Psychiatry Dr. Robert Spitzer, who was instrumental in removing homosexuality in 1973 from the American Psychiatric Association's list of mental disorders, wrote a study published in the October 2003 Archives of Sexual Behavior. He contended that people can change their "sexual orientation" from homosexual to heterosexual.8 Spitzer interviewed more than 200 people, most of whom claimed that through reparative therapy counseling, their desires for same-sex partners either diminished significantly or they changed over to heterosexual orientation. Although still a proponent of homosexual activism, Spitzer has been attacked unmercifully by former admirers for this breach of the ideology that people are "born gay and can't change." Immutability is a central tenet of demands for "gay rights" and "gay marriage."

Because no single study can be regarded as definitive, more research on people who have overcome homosexuality needs to be done. But a considerable body of previous literature about change from homosexuality to heterosexuality has been compiled, and the sheer number of exceptions to the "born gay" theory should be a warning to researchers and media to proceed with caution before declaring that science has "proved" that homosexuality is genetic.9

Other recent developments also suggest that homosexuality is not genetically determined. The Washington Post reported that bisexuality is fashionable among many young teen girls, who go back and forth from being "straight" to "gay" to "bi" to "straight" again.10

Post reporter Laura Sessions Stepp writes:
  • Recent studies among women suggest that female homosexuality may be grounded more in social interaction, may present itself as an emotional attraction in addition to or in place of a physical one, and may change over time.11
She cites one such study by Lisa M. Diamond, assistant professor of psychology and gender studies at the University of Utah, who in 1994 began studying a group of females aged 16 to 23 who were attracted to other females.12 Over the course of the study, "almost two-thirds have changed labels," Stepp reports.

Against increasing evidence that homosexual behavior is neither inevitable nor impossible to resist, a number of studies have been widely publicized as "proof" of a genetic component. But they are either poorly constructed or misreported as to their significance.

In 1993, Columbia University psychiatry professors Drs. William Byne and Bruce Parsons examined the most prominent "gay gene" studies on brain structure and on identical twins, and published the results in the Archives of General Psychiatry. They found numerous methodological flaws in all of the studies, and concluded that:
  • There is no evidence at present to substantiate a biologic theory. … [T]he appeal of current biologic explanations for sexual orientation may derive more from dissatisfaction with the present status of psychosocial explanations than from a substantiating body of experimental data.13
After he was roundly attacked by homosexual activists, who accused him of providing ammunition for conservatives to challenge the gay rights/civil rights comparison based on immutability, Byne denounced the "false dichotomy: Biology or Choice?" and stated that he was also skeptical of environmental theories of sexual orientation. He wrote: "There is no compelling evidence to support any singular psychosocial explanation," and that he would never "imply that one consciously decides one's sexual orientation."14 But the fact remains that Dr. Byne has poked gaping holes in the most influential studies purporting to prove that homosexuality is inborn.

In May 2000, the American Psychiatric Association issued a Fact Sheet, "Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual Issues," which includes this statement:

"Currently, there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality."

Beyond the false comfort that homosexuals need not seek to alter their behavior in any way, there may be another motive behind the release and enthusiastic reporting of these studies:
political advantage. As Natalie Angier wrote in The New York Times on September 1, 1991:
  • [P]roof of an inborn difference between gay and heterosexual men could provide further ammunition in the battle against discrimination. If homosexuality were viewed legally as a biological phenomenon, rather than a fuzzier matter of "choice" or "preference," then gay people could no more rightfully be kept out of the military, a housing complex or a teaching job than could, say blacks.15

Simon LeVay, whose brain study in 1991 "jumped from the pages of the periodical Science to The New York Times and Time, then to CNN and Nightline, and from there to the dinner tables and offices of the country," according to writer Chandler Burr, was quite open in his assessment of the possible impact of his work. "[P]eople who think gays and lesbians are born that way are also more likely to support gay rights."16

In his book Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth, Dr. Jeffrey Satinover writes:
  • We will see later the falsity of activists' repeated assertions that homosexuality is immutable. They seek to create the impression that science has settled these questions, but it most certainly has not. Instead, the changes that have occurred in both public and professional opinion have resulted from politics, pressure, and public relations.17
Despite critical examination, as well as comments by the studies' own authors that the "gay" research has been distorted or exaggerated, some of the studies are often cited as "proof" that "gays are born that way." A few other studies have arisen in more recent years with as many flaws or have been misreported in similar fashion. Here is a brief overview of some of the studies:

UCLA's Study on Genes and Mice Brains

In October 2003, the journal Molecular Brain Research published a study by UCLA researchers indicating that sexual identity is genetic.18 Reuters reported it this way: "Sexual identity is wired into the genes, which discounts the concept that homosexuality and transgender sexuality are a choice, California researchers reported."19 A number of other media outlets picked up on this theme, creating the impression that this study was yet one more piece of evidence for a genetic theory of homosexuality.

The trouble is, the study doesn't say anything about homosexuality. All it does is support a widely accepted theory about hormones and gender. Here is Princeton Professor Dr. Jeffrey Satinover's assessment:
  • The research is a decent piece of basic science and confirms what geneticists have long known must be the case: That the hormonal milieu that causes sexual differentiation between males and females is itself determined by genes, in mice as in men. This comes as no surprise.

    But this research says absolutely nothing about homosexuality or transsexualism and any who claim it does are either ill-informed about genetics, or if not, are deliberately abusing their scientific knowledge and or credentials in the service of politics - in precisely the same way that Soviet-era geneticists such as Lysenko did - either in the naïve hope that distortion of the truth can produce a better society or out of fear for their career prospects. In either case they should be roundly rebuked for doing so.20

The Hypothalamus

The first widely publicized claim for a "gay gene" came in 1991 when Salk Institute researcher Dr. Simon LeVay published a study in the journal Science noting a difference in a brain structure called the hypothalamus when evaluating 35 men - 19 homosexuals and 16 heterosexuals.21 LeVay found that the hypothalamus was generally larger in heterosexual men than in homosexual men. He concluded that the findings "suggest that sexual orientation has a biologic substrate."22

The media splashed the study on front pages and TV and radio broadcasts from coast to coast, despite the fact that LeVay himself cautioned:

"It's important to stress what I didn't find. I did not prove that homosexuality is genetic, or find a genetic cause for being gay. I didn't show that gay men are born that way, the most common mistake people make in interpreting my work. Nor did I locate a gay center in the brain. …Since I looked at adult brains, we don't know if the differences I found were there at birth, or if they appeared later."23

The study also had major problems, which LeVay himself readily admits. First, all 19 of his homosexual subjects died of complications associated with AIDS. The difference in the hypothalamus might have been caused by chemical changes in the brain as a response to AIDS.

Dr. Byne argued in Scientific American that "[LeVay's] inclusion of a few brains from heterosexual men with AIDS did not adequately address the fact that at the time of death virtually all men with AIDS have decreased testosterone levels as the result of the disease itself or the side effects of particular treatments. Thus it is possible that the effects on the size of the INAH3 [hypothalamus] that he attributed to sexual orientation were actually caused by the hormonal abnormalities associated with AIDS."24

In addition, six of the "heterosexual" men died of AIDS. LeVay admitted later that he didn't actually know whether the subjects in his heterosexual sample were, indeed, heterosexual; all of these subjects were simply "presumed heterosexual." Given that very few straight men in San Francisco were contracting AIDS at the time (and still aren't), this was a wildly unscientific assumption.

Another weakness of LeVay's study is that his sample included major "exceptions." Three of the homosexuals had larger clusters of neurons than the mean size for the heterosexuals, and three of the heterosexuals had clusters smaller than the mean size for the homosexuals. LeVay acknowleged that these exceptions "hint at the possibility that sexual orientation, although an important variable, may not be the sole determinant of INAH3 [hypothalamus] size."25

LeVay is an open homosexual, and some comments he made to Newsweek suggest he had an agenda from the outset of the research. He said he believes that America must be convinced that homosexuality is biologically determined. "It's important to educate society," he said. "I think this issue does affect religious and legal attitudes."26

Since LeVay released his study, other researchers have found that life experiences can alter brain structures, so it is premature to assume inborn origins for behavioral differences. In 1997, for example, University of California at Berkeley psychologist Marc Breedlove released a study that showed that sexual activities of rats actually changed structural aspects of the brain at the base of the spinal chord. Breedlove said:

  • These findings give us proof for what we theoretically know to be the case-that sexual experience can alter the structure of the brain, just as genes can alter it. You can't assume that because you find a structural difference in the brain, that it was caused by genes. You don't know how it got there.27

Breedlove is not an activist out to prove homosexuality is not biological. In fact, he said he believes that a genetic component exists somewhere and is doing his own research in this area.

The X Chromosome

In 1993, a group of medical researchers at the National Cancer Institute (NCI) led by Dr. Dean H. Hamer released a study of 40 pairs of brothers that linked homosexuality to the X chromosome. The research, published in Science, reported that 33 of the pairs of brothers had DNA markers in the chromosome region known as Xq28.

The study won an enormous amount of media attention, and Hamer's own activities as a homosexual activist within NCI were ignored when Hamer offered interviews only when reporters agreed not to identify him as a homosexual.

But even Hamer tempered his enthusiasm about the research results.
  • We knew that the genes were only part of the answer," he said in a speech given in Salt Lake City. "We assumed the environment also played a role in sexual orientation, as it does in most, if not all behaviors.28
In a later interview, Hamer said, "Homosexuality is not purely genetic. … [E]nvironmental factors play a role. There is not a single master gene that makes people gay. …I don't think we will ever be able to predict who will be gay."29

Hamer's results are often misunderstood. Many believe that the study found an identical sequence (Xq28) on the X chromosome of all homosexual brothers in the study. In reality, what it found was matching sequences in each set of brothers who were both homosexual. Dr. Byne argues that in order to prove anything by this study, Hamer would have had to examine the Xq28 sequence of homosexual men's heterosexual brothers. Hamer insisted that such an inclusion would have confounded his study. Byne responds: "In other words, inclusion of heterosexual brothers might have revealed that something other than genes is responsible for sexual orientation."30

In the same edition of Science that carried the Hamer study, Elliot Gershon, chief of the clinical neurogenetics branch of the National Institute of Mental Health, said, "There's almost no finding that would be convincing by itself in this field. We really have to see an independent replication."31

The National Cancer Institute sponsored the "gay gene" research. This study alone cost $419,000 of the institute's taxpayer-backed funds, according to The Washington Times.32

The National Institutes of Health's Office of Research Integrity investigated Hamer over allegations by a colleague that he ignored evidence that conflicted with his hypothesis. NIH never released the results of the inquiry, but Hamer was shortly thereafter transferred to another section. He had done the "gay gene" research under a grant to work on Kaposi's Sarcoma, a skin cancer that inordinately afflicts homosexual men.

One of Hamer's researchers told the Times that homosexuality is "not the only thing we study," but it is "a primary focus of study." Hamer reportedly stated he has pushed for an Office of Gay and Lesbian Health inside the National Institutes of Health, and he testified in opposition to Colorado's Amendment 2, which sought to keep homosexual activists from winning minority class status. Then-Sen. Robert C. Smith (R-New Hampshire) accused the doctor of "actively pursu[ing] a gay agenda."33

Another fact that casts doubt on Hamer's conclusions is that other researchers tried to replicate his study but failed. In 1999, Drs. George Rice, Neil Risch and George Ebers published their findings in Science after attempting to replicate Hamer's Xq28 study. Their conclusion: "We were not able to confirm evidence for an Xq28-linked locus underlying male homosexuality." Moreover, they added that when another group of researchers (Sanders, et al.) tried to replicate Hamer's study, they too failed to find a genetic connection to homosexuality.34

The Twins Study

In 1991, J. Michael Bailey and Richard C. Pillard published a study that examined identical and fraternal twin brothers and adopted brothers in an effort to establish a genetic link to homosexuality. Fifty-two percent of the identical twins were reportedly homosexual, while only 22 percent of fraternal twins fell into the same category. But since identical twins have identical genetic material, the fact that nearly half of the identical twins were heterosexual effectively refutes the idea that homosexuality has a genetic basis.35

"This finding alone argues for the enormous importance of nongenetic factors influencing homosexuality," writes Dr. Jeffrey Satinover, "because … in order for something to be genetically determined, as opposed to merely influenced, the genetic heritability would need to approach 100 percent." Satinover, a psychiatrist, notes that "identical twins reared together share more significant environmental influences than nonidentical twins reared together," and that narcissism, a key component of homosexuality, is more likely among identical twins who "grow up with mirror images of themselves."37 (Italics in original.)

In his analysis of the medical evidence purportedly supporting a biological cause of homosexuality, Dr. Byne noted other twin studies:
  • Without knowing what developmental experiences contribute to sexual orientation the effects of common genes and common environments are difficult to disentangle. Resolving this issue requires studies of twins raised apart.38

Other physicians have also criticized the study for overvaluing the genetic influence.39

Dr. Byne's arguments might lead some activists to label him a "homophobe." He is, in reality, quite the contrary. Byne readily advocates societal acceptance of homosexuality and "gay rights," but nevertheless concludes, "Most of the links in the chain of reasoning from biology to social policy [regarding homosexuality], do not hold up under scrutiny."40

Bailey conducted another study in 1999, published in the March 2000 issue of the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, which actually showed less possible genetic influence on homosexuality than the first twins study. He sent a questionnaire to the entire Australian Twin Registry. Only three pairs of identical male twins were both homosexual out of a total of 27 in which at least one was homosexual. Of the 16 fraternal male twins, none of the pairs was both homosexual. Bailey found similar results for lesbians.41

Hormones

In 1998, Dennis McFadden and Edward G. Pasanen published a study that evaluated auditory systems. Specifically, the study considered differences in echo-like waveforms emitted from an inner ear structure of people with normal hearing. These waves are higher in women than in men, a factor often attributed to the level of a person's exposure to androgen (a male hormone) in his or her early development as a fetus.42

In self-acknowledged lesbians, the waveforms ranged between those of men and those of heterosexual women. The researchers concluded that this suggests that female homosexuality could result from larger exposure to the male hormone androgen in the womb (homosexual men did not show the same variation).43

The media eagerly jumped on this bandwagon. But even the researchers themselves did not draw definitive conclusions. In the published study, they pointed out that exposure to "intense sounds, certain drugs, and other manipulations" can lower the level of these auditory waveforms. "Thus, it may be that something in the lifestyles of homosexual and bisexual females leads them to be exposed to one or more agents that have reduced the [waveforms], either temporarily or permanently."44

Moreover, even if the hearing differences were caused by an increased exposure to androgen in the womb, scientists would still be far from proving that this exposure is a cause of homosexuality-especially since the difference was not apparent in the male homosexual sample.

Finger Length

In March 2000, the media publicized a finger length study that indicated that lesbians had longer fingers than other women, perhaps because of greater exposure in the womb to androgen.

Typically, both sexes' index finger is slightly shorter than the ring finger-a difference that is seen more clearly on the right hand. In females, the ring finger and index finger are almost the same size, but in men the index finger is more noticeably shorter.

In this study, Berkeley's Dr. Breedlove, who had in 1997 shown how sexual activity can change brain structure, found that homosexual women's finger length had a tendency to follow the male pattern. But Breedlove cautioned about reading too much into the finding:

"There is no gene that forces a person to be straight or gay," he told CNN. "… I believe there are many social and psychological, as well as biological, factors that make up sexual preference."45

Dr. Jeffrey Satinover commented as follows on the study:
  • A girl who develops before and into puberty with a "masculinized habitus" (the result of excess maternal intrauterine androgen stimulated by a genetic condition in the fetus)-a stocky physique, facial hair, powerful muscles, a square jaw and long fingers-may suffer so much teasing and rejection by family and peers that she comes to think of herself as "not feminine" and so will seek solace in the arms of women. Indeed, this an all-too-common pattern in the lives of " lesbians" and illustrates exactly how a strong genetic " association"' can imply literally zero genetic causation whatsoever. It's rather remarkable that the authors failed to remark on the support their study provided not for any genetic association with lesbianism, but rather for the genetic association to secondary sexual expression in homo sapiens that Vilain et al were only able to demonstrate in mus musculus. The attention paid to homosexuality in both cases, while ignoring straighforward sex, reflects the distinctly Orwellian effect that political correctness has on science: We now treat the differences between male and female as socially constructed and those between heterosexuality and homosexuality as innate and genetic.46

Eye Blinking

In October 2003, a team of English researchers announced that they had found "powerful new evidence that sexual orientation is 'hard-wired' in the human brain before birth."47

Dr. Qazi Rahman of the University of East London and Dr. Veena Kumari and Dr. Glenn Wilson of the Institute of Psychiatry said they found sex differences in the startle response - the eye blink in response to loud noises.48

The authors found that women had a lesser "prepulse inhibition of the human startle response (PPI),"49 that is, they blinked more readily than men, and that lesbians blinked less readily than other women. They used small samples, and, more significantly, found no difference between homosexual men and heterosexual men. Yet they gave the impression that their findings indicated that homosexuality is a pre-born condition.

"Because the startle response is known to be involuntary rather than learned, this strongly indicates that sexual orientation is largely determined before birth," said a press release from the University of East London.50

Dr. Rahman said in the release, "These findings may well affect the way we as a society deal with sexuality and the issues surrounding sexual orientation."

But the researchers themselves introduce some cautionary notes in the study:
  • Although prenatal factors may be possible precursors to the neurobehavioral profiles observed in lesbians and gay men, whether neural differences underlie sexual orientation per se, or are a consequence of homosexual or heterosexual behavior, is yet to be determined.51
They also write: "Neuroanatomical and neurophysiological variations between heterosexuals and homosexuals may be due either to biological factors or to the influence of learning."52

The team concluded that: "Our results show, for the first time, that PPI relates to sexual orientation and that homosexual women show a robust cross-sex shift. Homosexual women showed a masculinized PPI that was no different from that of heterosexual men. … Homosexual men did not differ from heterosexual men."53

Dr. Halstead Harrison, an associate professor emeritus in the Atmospheric Science Department of the University of Washington, reviewed the study, noted the small sizes of the test groups (14 lesbians and 15 heterosexual women, and 15 each of homosexual and heterosexual men) and the statistical methods, and concluded: "Data presented by Rahman et al. do not confidently support their finding that homosexual women exhibit a male-type startled-blink reflex."54

Harrison further stated that "no significant differences were detected."

As far as the blink reflex being utterly innate or somewhat trainable, he responded to an interviewer, "Now, that's an open question."55 Dr. Harrison also said he would have liked to have seen the complete data on the series of tests to see whether the subjects' responses would change with repetition. This would indicate whether the PPI is entirely innate.

In his conclusion, he said: "This Comment should not be construed as falsifying the hypothesis that homosexual and heterosexual women display different prepulse startle-inhibition reflexes. That conjecture may turn out to be so, but the present data do not confidently support it."

Neuroendocrine Hypotheses

In 1999, Dr. Qazi Rahman compiled a brief review of several studies purporting to show a link between neuroanatomy and sexual orientation.56

He wrote: "The emerging neuroanatomical account suggests that, in some key neural substrates, homosexual men show a trend toward female-typical neuroanatomy as compared to heterosexual men."57

Rahman also said, "Lesbians excel at some tasks which favor heterosexual males."

As in the eye-blinking study, Rahman struck a cautionary note: "But is neuroendocrine differentiation a cause or a consequence of behavior? … In addition, the differential development posited may not be causal but correlational."

Rahman noted that, "Differential reinforcements from inputs in the psychosocial milieu to these sex-atypical behaviors makes the 'pre-homosexual child' view the same sex as 'exotic' (i.e., different from one's self), which later in puberty becomes the object of eroticization."58

As some developmental psychologists have observed, some children may be less inclined to exhibit classic gender role differences, and this may set them up for the type of reactions from peers (or even parents), such as rejection or teasing, that make them vulnerable to developing same-sex attraction.59

One glaring problem with Rahman's article is that he uncritically cites many of the studies that were thoroughly debunked by researchers such as Columbia's Byne and Parsons. These include studies by LeVay, Hamer, Allen, Gorski, Bailey and others.

Rahman wraps up his piece this way:
  • To conclude, it is important to illustrate that neurobiological differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals are by no means decisive. Nonetheless, the several independent findings of neuroanatomical differences in sex-atypical directions are not easily refutable.
    [Editor's note: Yes, they are. Byne and Parsons, among others, saw to that.] Unfortunately, evidence currently available is limited and largely correlational in nature. Owing to this, it is not possible for alternative developmental processes associated with sexual orientation to be excluded.60

Conclusion

Determining whether something has a biological cause is difficult, and locating a specifically genetic link is even more so. The handful of studies that purportedly add up to incontestable "proof" that homosexuals are "born that way" are inconclusive at best and, as Dr. Rahman notes, "largely correlational in nature." In some cases, such as the twins studies, the evidence strongly indicates that early environment is more likely the dominant factor to have produced homosexual desires.

As Dr. Satinover emphasizes, correlation does not mean something is causative. Basketball players are tall, so height correlates with playing basketball, he notes. But there is no "basketball-playing gene." Efforts to turn some interesting correlations into causal factors have not been successful and yet have been misused to advance a political agenda.

Perhaps the best way to describe the situation is this, as paraphrased from Dr. Satinover: Some people may be predisposed because of genetic, prenatal hormonal influences or other physical or brain differences to have personalities that make them vulnerable to the environmental factors that can elicit homosexual desires.
So is homosexuality biological? Not in the way that popular media and homosexual activists have presented it.

Extremely shy and artistic young boys, for instance, who are not affirmed in their masculinity by a caring father, might be at risk for homosexuality. It's not because of a homosexual "gene," but because of an interrupted process of achieving secure gender identity. This can make some boys who crave male affirmation an easy mark for seduction into homosexuality. A similar pattern can be seen in girls who don't fit classic gender profiles, need feminine affirmation, and are targeted by lesbians who play upon the girls' emotional needs.

Such children's vulnerability is all the more reason to protect them from early exposure to homosexual influences. The Boy Scouts of America, for instance, is right to screen out as troop leaders those men who desire other males sexually. The Scouts do so not out of bigotry, or a belief that all homosexual men molest boys. They do so out of genuine concern for the health and well-being of the boys in their charge, including those who might be sexually vulnerable.

Americans for too long have been pummeled with the idea that people are "born gay." The people who most need to hear the truth are those who mistakenly believe they have no chance themselves for change. It is both more compassionate and truthful to give them hope than to serve them up politically motivated, unproven creations like the "gay gene."

Robert Knight is director of the Culture & Family Institute, an affiliate of Concerned Women for America. This paper is a revised and updated version of "Born & Bred: The Debate Over the Cause of Homosexuality"(last updated in June 2000) by former Concerned Women for America staff writer Trudy Chun.

March 31, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source for Article and End Notes, See:
http://www.cwfa.org/printerfriendly.asp ... yid=papers

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SputnikBoy said:
gingercat said:
SputnikBoy said:
Have you ever considered that God might be using me as a mouthpiece on this very issue, ginger? How do you KNOW He isn't?


Sput,

God never promote sin, period. I have been reading your posts and this is my observation that you are not obedient Christian. You are using the Bible conveniently. I don't even know why you bother calling yourself Christian, You don't seem to understand God and Jesus' purpose. You don't seem to know Jesus' true blessings. Jesus and His disciples' teachings are a blessing and not a curse, ALL OF THEM!

So ...I haven't yet made the grade of Christian according to gingercat, eh? It doesn't really bother me since I still can't come to terms with the fact that you would oust a son or daughter from your home if you found out they were 'gay'. Sorry, ginger, but if that's your brand of Christianity you can have it all to yourself. I'm serious! I'd prefer to think that you may have said that in the heat of the moment, however.

Every homosexual in the world has at least one parent and there must have been a great deal of heartache and tears in the lives of many, many people. As mentioned in my post to thess, 'gays', 'queers', and other terms (many of them used in a derogatory sense) are labels many apply to fellow human beings. That a loving son or daughter would suddenly lose their human identity and become a 'whatever' and discriminated against as a consequence is shameful. I think I'll stick to my brand of Christianity, even if it appears to be somewhat unorthodox.

Sput,

My husband's faith is just like yours. He did not practice what the Bible teaches. He took our kids to the church evey Sunday with him. Our two oldest kids became rebellious inspite of church attending.

After I became Christian, I was determined to obey everything what Jesus and His desciples teaches in the NT.

The Bible gave me wisdom to separate ourselves from my husband; now our younger kids 18 and 16 year old are devoted to follow Jesus and our oldest daughter joined us with her 5 year old son 5 years ago.

You are treating Jesus' teachings some kind of curse. You are fighting against God.

You are portraying me as unloving, judgmental and a legalist. If I am the kind you are portrating, my three out of four kids will not join me serving Jesus. They are old enough to decide which parent to live with. They are devoted Chrsitain and blessing to me; we don't even attend organized church like their father.

I have been exposing me and my family's private lives. If that's all you see from my posts you sould take a close look at your faith and ask yourself if you have been honest with Him.

Been Christian is not just accepting His blessings. He is giving us a lot of responsibilities.

If we are not changed and are not willing to change we are not born again, if we are not born again we are not Christians.

By being born again, we can learn and get closer to God as years go by.

Good day, sput.
 
Fulton Sheen's Warrior said:
+JMJ+

That article was fantastic Relic!

No, not really. It was extremely misleading. Few reputable scientists have ever claimed there was a "gay gene" in the sense that if you have the gene, you're gay, and if you don't have the gene, you're not. Genetics is much more complicated than that, especially when dealing with behavioral patterns. Your genes can't conclusively determine anything, in terms of behavior; they can only create trends.

Further, most scientists readily concede that sexual orientation, as with most other behaviors, is determined by a combination of nature and nurture. Some people will have a strong inclination towards homosexuality, and others won't. Of those with a strong inclination, most will wind up gay. Others will have a strong inclination towards heterosexuality, and most will wind up straight. Still others will fall somewhere in the spectrum between the two extremes, and for these people, upbringing will be more important.

The article did a good job of highlighting a lot of the studies that have been done, but then it took a qualifying statements such as "this doesn't definitively prove the existence of a 'gay gene'" and uses them as "proof" that the study is garbage. All such qualifiers mean is that one study, by itself, doesn't prove much about something so complicated as genetics and hormonal development. All of the dozens of studies taken together, on the other hand...

The biggest problem here is that most people have no clue about what genetics entails. Scientific ignorance is a pox on modern society, and the opinions of some that science is the enemy of God doesn't help.
 
sehad said:
Sput, I still am not sure where you stand on this issue. I have asked this before and I'm not sure if you are just avoiding me or just haven't saw exactly where I've asked this. Do you believe that homosexuality is a sin regardless of a person's "natural" desires?

I'm sorry, sehad. I certainly wasn't avoiding the question since I thought I'd already responded to it. I HAVE said that I don’t believe that the homosexual orientation itself is a sin any more than the orientation of heterosexuality is a sin. But, one can be caught between a rock and a hard place on this issue. On the one hand one cannot say, “No, I don’t believe that homosexuality is a sin.†This would no doubt stir up a hornet’s nest by those who appear to wear their Bible as an item of clothing as though to win favor with God.

On the other hand, one cannot say in all sincerity, “Yes, homosexuality is a sin†if they honestly don’t believe that it is. This would be said merely to win favor with those who wear their Bibles as an item of clothing. One only needs to check out the posts by some on this forum who get most upset and question one’s spirituality simply because one has an opinion that differs from theirs.

Take gingercat, for instance, who has all but spurned me because she believes that I can’t possibly be a Christian as long as I question the scriptures. Her posts are there for everyone to read so I’m not speaking out of turn. Prior to this issue I was her (forum) friend …now I’m not it would appear. Admittedly, she regularly gets mad and ‘pouts’ with others on the forum who just might differ with her. But, she IS a female and we males have to make allowances for emotional outbursts from that gender. :wink:

NOW I’m being lumped in by ginger with her un-Christian husband who I know nothing about other than what she has told us previously. And he is obviously an unworthy soul from what we are told. While I believe (oh dear, I’m actually ‘thinking’ for myself again) that this kind of thing is little more than a ‘feminine trait’ and therefore 'excusable' :D , if it IS Christianity then I don’t want it.

One cannot go into this topic in TOO much detail since it is so complex. Besides that, I'm not a Bible-history scholar. Nor am I a biological scientist. But, even with my lack of knowledge on the issue, the statement "homosexuality is a sin," that is casually bandied around by Christians just isn't good enough for me. I need facts, not emotions or dogmas or dubious texts from ancient writings to convince me. Even then I wouldn't be pointing the finger at anyone. I leave the finger-pointing to the many others who do it with so much more relish. :-?

From a scriptural perspective, we DO need to understand as best we can the context of specific scripture and the particular culture of the day before we pick and choose the texts we condemningly aim at others. You do realize, of course, sehad, that any number of ‘commands’ of God are, or may be, irrelevant for us today …? And, whether I’m right or wrong (and I COULD be wrong), I DO firmly believe (as firmly as I CAN believe with my limited knowledge) what I state below regarding this issue. Incidentally, crassness is not the intent here. So, I’ll try not to be any more graphic than I need to be.

“Go forth and multiply†had been a command of God for His people. Anything deviating from that command was seen to be sinful by the people of the day to whom that command was given. ‘Wasted seed’ (unproductive sperm) was viewed as being a terrible sin since it was seen as the destruction of ‘life’ itself. This was an absolute no-no. Indeed, there is some conjecture that sperm ITSELF was believed by those of the times to be the ACTUAL ‘life’. God never enlightened those of antiquity with the knowledge of biological science and reproduction that is available to us today. Actually, it’s only in relatively recent times that such knowledge has been available to us through microbiology and such. Therefore God’s commands were based on ‘where the people were at’ given the limited knowledge they possessed at that time. Sex was seen to be an act for procreation and not for recreation.

Unbelievably, many Christians today STILL believe the ‘wasted seed’ principle to be the case. They therefore take a dim view of the act of masturbation whether it be self masturbation or (particularly condemned) ‘mutual’ masturbation. I mean, as long as homosexual (mutual) masturbation is considered to be such a dire sin, then so too would be self-masturbation since the outcome is the same. It’s still ‘wasted seed’. Then again, so too is the case with ANY form of ‘sex’ that doesn’t produce an offspring. Even though these particular Christians would probably argue quite militantly that masturbation is ‘a sin’, the Bible does not support this belief at all. They just THINK that the Bible condemns this practice. This is but one of a number of erroneous Christian beliefs that is based on pure ignorance but still passed down from one generation to another as fact.

In the case of ‘man lying with man’ the same belief that this was contrary to God’s command to go forth and be fruitful would apply. Man lying with man cannot produce an offspring. And, since God had given the command to these particular people in the first place, He too would have frowned on this practice for no other reason than that previously stated. The ‘wasted seed’ principle would apply here. And, the consequences for not adhering to these commands were not only over-the-top EXTREME but, from our modern perspective, absolutely UNREASONABLE. Not only in the Old Testament but way on into the New Testament many of the same commands as given in Leviticus were in effect. There were many acts that were considered abominations and ‘taboo’ and worthy of death that we would not even CONSIDER as such today. Why? If we believe some, then why not all?

And yet, many Christians take a piece of ‘this’ part of the Old Testament and a piece of ‘that’ part of the Old Testament and in many cases come up with a jumble of nonsense as well as hypocrisy. I mean, as long as Christians choose to believe the Bible so implicitly on the issue of homosexuality should they not ALSO be as zealous about imposing the death penalty on homosexuals? And, if so, why stop there? Have you ever read the punishments for sin as found in Leviticus 20? Talk about weird and wonderful! If anyone can apply much of this to 21st Century thinking then we’re all in trouble.

Leviticus 20 is the chapter where the favorite text about ‘man lying with man’ (v.13) comes from. In the same chapter we read:

‘We’ (as long as we’re applying v. 13 to ‘us’) are told not to sacrifice our children to the god Molech. If we do then we are to be killed.

‘We’ are told not to curse our father and mother otherwise ‘we’ die. Below are some more consequences for sin minus the ‘we’. You get the point.

If a man commits adultery then both he and the woman must be killed.

If a man sleeps with his mother, both he and she must be killed.

If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law both of them must be killed.

If a man lies with a man both must be killed.

If a man marries a woman and also her mother all three must be killed.

If a woman approaches an animal with ‘sex’ on her mind then both she AND the animal are to be killed.

The list goes on and on as to the punishment for sin that ‘we’ are to receive. There are MANY more scriptures other than those dealing with sexual practices that are also so outlandish that we would not CONSIDER them as being applicable for today. But, since Christians apply v.13 of Leviticus as being a ‘present day command’ they must therefore apply the rest of the verse. Don’t simply STATE that homosexuality is a sin, do your God-given duty. We have God’s authority to go out and execute them. Oh, and while we’re about it, let’s do the same with EVERYONE who breaks the Sabbath command (Numbers 15:32-36). Oh my, that’s most of mainstream Christianity. Where DO we draw a reasonable line between what we choose to believe and what we choose to ignore?
 
Wow, this thread is still going?!?!?! :o


:: eats some more popcorn ::
 
Fulton Sheen's Warrior said:
+JMJ+

That article was fantastic Relic!
ArtGuy said:
No, not really. It was extremely misleading. Few reputable scientists have ever claimed there was a "gay gene" in the sense that if you have the gene, you're gay, and if you don't have the gene, you're not. Genetics is much more complicated than that, especially when dealing with behavioral patterns. Your genes can't conclusively determine anything, in terms of behavior; they can only create trends.

The article was NOT misleading at all.

Didn't you grasp the gist (the central idea) of the article? :o And what are you trying to prove here then? It's difficult to tell whether you agree or disagree, but it is clear you want to make a statement that you think the article is misleading. Where it is misleading is not clearly stated by you, in that, "your personal opinion" took precedence over the findings of the research that was done, and you paraphrased from the article rather than using direct excerpts from it. It is not clear what you are implying as being misleading. And, it is not clear in what you are agreeing or disagreeing... Or, are you just wanting to find fault in stating the article was misleading, were actually, there is no fault to be found at all?

Specifically, Where and How is the article misleading, and how does what you wrote, in the first paragraph of your reply, differ from the following excerpt?
  • Excerpt from the article entitled:
    Born or Bred?
    Science Does Not Support the Claim That Homosexuality Is Genetic
    12/21/2005
    By Robert WY. Knight

    Because no single study can be regarded as definitive, more research on people who have overcome homosexuality needs to be done. But a considerable body of previous literature about change from homosexuality to heterosexuality has been compiled, and the sheer number of exceptions to the "born gay" theory should be a warning to researchers and media to proceed with caution before declaring that science has "proved" that homosexuality is genetic.9

ArtGuy said:
Further, most scientists readily concede that sexual orientation, as with most other behaviors, is determined by a combination of nature and nurture. Some people will have a strong inclination towards homosexuality, and others won't. Of those with a strong inclination, most will wind up gay. Others will have a strong inclination towards heterosexuality, and most will wind up straight. Still others will fall somewhere in the spectrum between the two extremes, and for these people, upbringing will be more important.

The following is the part of the last paragraph of that article:
  • Excerpt from the article entitled:
    Born or Bred?
    Science Does Not Support the Claim That Homosexuality Is Genetic
    12/21/2005
    By Robert H. Knight

    Conclusion

    Determining whether something has a biological cause is difficult, and locating a specifically genetic link is even more so. The handful of studies that purportedly add up to incontestable "proof" that homosexuals are "born that way" are inconclusive at best and, as Dr. Rahman notes, "largely correlational in nature." In some cases, such as the twins studies, the evidence strongly indicates that early environment is more likely the dominant factor to have produced homosexual desires.

    As Dr. Satinover emphasizes, correlation does not mean something is causative. Basketball players are tall, so height correlates with playing basketball, he notes. But there is no "basketball-playing gene." Efforts to turn some interesting correlations into causal factors have not been successful and yet have been misused to advance a political agenda.

    Perhaps the best way to describe the situation is this, as paraphrased from Dr. Satinover: Some people may be predisposed because of genetic, prenatal hormonal influences or other physical or brain differences to have personalities that make them vulnerable to the environmental factors that can elicit homosexual desires.
    So is homosexuality biological? Not in the way that popular media and homosexual activists have presented it.

ArtGuy said:
The article did a good job of highlighting a lot of the studies that have been done, but then it took a qualifying statements such as "this doesn't definitively prove the existence of a 'gay gene'" and uses them as "proof" that the study is garbage. All such qualifiers mean is that one study, by itself, doesn't prove much about something so complicated as genetics and hormonal development. All of the dozens of studies taken together, on the other hand...

Your personal conclusions here are short sighted in how experiments and studies are conducted.

All that "these studies" proved is that there is inconclusive evidence as to whether there is a gay gene, or not. There needs to be much more research done.
However, indicators within many of those studies presented in the article do point to environmental influences more than biological, wouldn't you agree?

So then, again, I see you go from agreeing with the article, to trying to find fault where there is none. Why did you incomplete your last sentence? :-? Did you see how you contradicted yourself? 8-) Read the excerpts I presented in this post and you will see that Your conclusion contradict what is written in the excerpts from the article.

What is your point ArtGuy? I would hope you are not trying to find fault where there is none, just for the sake of creating argument/debate where there is none. :-? :roll:

ArtGuy said:
The biggest problem here is that most people have no clue about what genetics entails.
Who are those most people you are referring to, are you referring to the researchers/doctors who performed the studies? :lol:

There are ethics and rules to research that one must adhere to.


The Truth comes out in the end of it all, You know. God's truth is always the last and final finding. :) Science only proves God's word to be truth. Science discovers the truth in God's Word. Science does not disprove God's Word at all. It only can discover it, it cannot create it.

Research is not ever going to discredit the truth of God's word at all. No worries there. 8-)


.
 
.

SputnikBoy,

That last posting you made is very vulgar and offensive, and it is way off the track of the real truth! It amazes me how you lump all of your falsehoods into one category and try to make them all relative to each other.

Martial sex in the eyes of God has nothing to do with the sin of wasting sperm! And your reasoning about what people thought back in those days in regards to much of what you mentioned is absurd!

And how you take Levitical law and pervert what it means for us today is just so very sad!
What Christ did for us on the cross in regards to the Levitical Laws and the punishments in regards to them has nothing to do with "your" definition of what should and should not be in regards to the laws! Christianity is not a secular system that you want to make it out to be. You want humanism to take precedence over the Spiritualism of the indwelling Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus. Well, it's just not going to happen!

And if you think that Levitical law has no place in todays society, you are mistaken! Levitical Laws were there for the conviction of sin, and they still are there for that very reason. The punishments that went along with specific sins was nailed to the cross with the blood of Christ Jesus! Christians who are born again live in the HOLY SPIRIT, not some carnal minded spirit that lusts after the flesh of homosexuality, masterbation, or fornication of the flesh!

As being children of God, The Holy Spirit of Jesus knows we are bound to make mistakes! And the Holy spirit is only IN US IF WE ALLOW IT TO BE. WE ARE the ones who turn our backs on the HOLY SPIRIT when we choose to follow the way of sin. The Holy Spirit is always there calling for us to return. The prodigal son is testimony to that! It grieves the Holy Spirit when we turn our backs and walk away from Him. God is always there with open arms for us, But IF we don't accept, we are the rebellious ones! The Levitical Laws show us that we are sinners. The Holy Spirit shows us redemptions from them by way of His indwelling Spirit In us. IF we don't allow the Holy Spirit to indwell, then we are vulnerable to sin. God will never leave or forsake us, But it is us who leaves Him behind in our walk by turning our backs to Him! We are called according to His purpose. To walk WITH Him, not against Him or away from Him. When we live by our own selfish purposes, then we are not taking heed to his calling then are we? :sad We are all called, but are we all willing to take heed to that calling? You need to get your life with Christ Jesus clear. God does not contradict his own words! And by you saying that he accepts you IN your sins, is false. We are called to REPENT from our sins. that means to turn away from them. And to say that we are born homosexual, or to say that a person is of the homosexual orientation is a LIE from the devil! God didn't create us to be homosexual. He created us to be heterosexual.

You need to get your Lies about a persons ORIENTATION in order! God does not accept the perverted sins of man. No man can be with God and still be IN sin. If that were so, then there would be no need for REPENTANCE of Forgiveness, or Grace, or Mercy! We find mercy when WE REPENT! There is no other grace or blessing without the Righteousness OF God. You can be pure in one area of your life, but if you are sinning in anther, that doesn't mean that SIN will be In honor of the what God deems as refined. In order for sin to be refined, it must be let go of. "Go and Sin No more" In order for someone to "Go and Sin No More" they must first REPENT.

We are NOT to INTEND on COMMITTING TO Performing an Act of Sin! If you refuse to repent, you are not of God, but of the devil. If you can't understand that simple truth, then you need to seriously ask God to show you the difference between repentance and unrepentance.


Jesus preached to go and sin no more. He also preached to obey the Father.

SputnikBoy, You bash Christians who tell you the truth in the Word about Homosexuality , but then you say you believe only in the words of Jesus?

Read the book of John again! And read John 15-1-27 Jesus and the Father are ONE. If you can't obey the commands of the Father how can you think you listen to and obey Jesus? Jesus didn't abolish the law. He came to fulfill the law!

  • Matthew 5:17-20
    17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

So do you think "your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees?

I pray that I do not go against the teachings of the Word of God.

Anything that is of Homosexual in nature is against the teachings of the word of God! God did not create us to be of that nature! But of the spirit that overcomes the carnal world! God did not create us to be born or oriented towards Homosexuality.

If you want to tell the homosexuals that it's okay to be homosexual then you are against the teachings of the Word of God.

The devil wants you to stay deceived and advocate that the homosexuals are okay in how they are.

We are all sinners without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And not one of us is okay in being selfish masturbators or fornicators who only look to satisfy the flesh and be perverted in what mindset we hold onto!

The HOLY SPIRIT is to be the INDWELLING SPIRIT. Not some perverted twisted mindset that is not of God. Be very careful of what you advocate! Homosexuality is NOT of God.

Stop trying to mix secular humanism with Christianity! :-?


.
 
Sput,

Your comments sound like "dear abby"'s advice. I read "dear abby" just to get to know secular world.

Why do you promote secular views? Did you become Christian to change the Bible to secular level?

What have you been doing all 18 years of your Christian life? It is not showing much faith.

Christians are supposed to lead secular to God and not the other way around.
 
Relic said:
What is your point ArtGuy? I would hope you are not trying to find fault where there is none, just for the sake of creating argument/debate where there is none. :-? :roll:

My points were these:

- The article seemed to be arguing that the science points towards homosexuality definitely not being genetic. It didn't come out and say that it's been proven that genetics don't play a role, but that seemed to be the gist, to me at least. The data is inconclusive so far, but it leans towards there being at least an element of genetics involved.

- The article made frequent use of the phrase "gay gene". This phrase is misleading because it implies that a single gene would be responsible for something as complicated as sexual orientation. It would more likely be many genes acting together to influence something of this magnitude. The article then jumped on statements by certain people to the effect of "this doesn't mean we've found a 'gay gene'..." as evidence that sexual orientation has no genetic component.

- Even if genetics had no influence at all, that wouldn't mean that homosexuality was completely a learned or voluntary behavior. In vitro hormonal influences are likely a very strong factor, based on the studies that the article referenced. The article mentions this in passing, but then goes on to ignore it in an attempt to hype up the "no gay gene means homosexuality is completely voluntary" point.

- When you take all of these studies together, rather than analyzing them individually, as the article does, it paints an interesting picture. It appears the most likely scenario is that genetics, hormonal development, and upbringing all play roles in determining one's sexual orientation. The influence of each factor will vary from person to person. Some people will have a strong genetic inclination towards homosexuality, but will still wind up straight as a result of upbringing. Others will have no genetic inclination towards homosexuality, but will be bathed in gay hormones for nine months, and will wind up gay. Sexual orientation is a complicated beast, but it's almost certainly not something one chooses to do. It's ridiculous to think that 5% of the population would choose to adopt a sexual preference that would make them the targets of so much hate and oppression, when they could just as easily like the opposite sex. Whether to act on their desire is a choice, sure. Whether to have the desire at all, though, isn't.

Those were my points. Perhaps I misinterpreted the thrust of the article, but would you at least agree with my point about the state of science on the matter? I doubt it, but here's hoping.

[quote:1e7bf]The biggest problem here is that most people have no clue about what genetics entails.
Who are those most people you are referring to, are you referring to the researchers/doctors who performed the studies?[/quote:1e7bf]

I was referring more to the author of the article (who is hardly a geneticist), as well as people who talk about things like "the gay gene".
 
gingercat said:

ginger . . .

gingercat said:
Your comments sound like "dear abby"'s advice. I read "dear abby" just to get to know secular world.

Shame on you . . . :o

gingercat said:
Why do you promote secular views? Did you become Christian to change the Bible to secular level?

Is that what I'm doing or is this just a 'gingercat' thing?

gingercat said:
What have you been doing all 18 years of your Christian life? It is not showing much faith.

I do okay in real life, ginger. I feel that others who know me personally would not agree with you. Remember, I'm just a 'voice' on a forum discussing one topic. Furthermore, whether right or wrong, I am SINCERE in my views on this topic.

gingercat said:
Christians are supposed to lead secular to God and not the other way around.

Well, I'm sure that your promoting the idea that parents kick out their 'gay' children is a good way to bring Christ to them. By the way, have you got a mirror, ginger? If so, would you mind using it occasionally in lieu of spending so much time looking at everyone else?

You're still my friend, by the way.
:smt008
 
Relic said:
.

SputnikBoy,

That last posting you made is very vulgar and offensive, and it is way off the track of the real truth! It amazes me how you lump all of your falsehoods into one category and try to make them all relative to each other.

Martial sex in the eyes of God has nothing to do with the sin of wasting sperm! And your reasoning about what people thought back in those days in regards to much of what you mentioned is absurd!

Okay, I've been duly chastised. Thanks for your post.
 
.

Romans 8:1
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:4-9
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 13:11-14
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day;
not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


.
 
SputnikBoy said:
Well, I'm sure that your promoting the idea that parents kick out their 'gay' children is a good way to bring Christ to them. By the way, have you got a mirror, ginger? If so, would you mind using it occasionally in lieu of spending so much time looking at everyone else?



Sput,

I don't see much Christian faith in your posts. I have been giving the benefit of doubt but you have been showing your real christianity in your hososexual threads. We show our faith with what we say too. We can try to disguise but we cannot hide. Your posts are nothing but hip secular leaders' theology.
 
Well, I think we had enough finger pointing to last a lifetime. It must stop. People are complaining we are deleting posts without explaination, crying it shows a lack of courtsey, but I don't see the same courtsey extended by some of the accusers.

There isn't enough time in the day to peruse the Forums, edit or delete objectionable posts AND offer up explainations.

To all who came here to disrupt this Christian Forum, if it doesn't stop, I suggest you all atart looking for another Forum.

Thank you
 
vic said:
Well, I think we had enough finger pointing to last a lifetime. It must stop. People are complaining we are deleting posts without explaination, crying it shows a lack of courtsey, but I don't see the same courtsey extended by some of the accusers.

There isn't enough time in the day to peruse the Forums, edit or delete objectionable posts AND offer up explainations.

To all who came here to disrupt this Christian Forum, if it doesn't stop, I suggest you all atart looking for another Forum.

Thank you
I'm with you Vic.
 
gingercat said:
SputnikBoy said:
Well, I'm sure that your promoting the idea that parents kick out their 'gay' children is a good way to bring Christ to them. By the way, have you got a mirror, ginger? If so, would you mind using it occasionally in lieu of spending so much time looking at everyone else?



Sput,

I don't see much Christian faith in your posts. I have been giving the benefit of doubt but you have been showing your real christianity in your hososexual threads. We show our faith with what we say too. We can try to disguise but we cannot hide. Your posts are nothing but hip secular leaders' theology.

Calm yourself down, ginger. Just because you don't agree with me on this issue doesn't mean that you have to dislike me. :smt022

Who knows, you may be 100% behind me on the next topic.
 
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