What Do We Learn From Job?

[pjt]

pjt,

I understand what you are saying. Really, I do. But there are two parts to every man and God doesn't just allow bad things to happen to good people for no reason. God has a plan and a purpose, after all, it was God who asked the Satan, "Have you seen my servant Job?"

4:1 Then Eliphaz the Temanite answered:
4:2 “If someone should attempt a word with you, will you be impatient? But who can refrain from speaking?
4:3 Look, you have instructed many; you have strengthened feeble hands.
4:4 Your words have supported those who stumbled, and you have strengthened the kneesthat gave way.
4:5 But now the same thing comes to you, and you are discouraged; it strikes you, and you are terrified.
4:6 Is not your piety your confidence, and your blameless ways your hope?


I believe Eliphaz hits the nail on the head. Job is spiritually dead because his hope is in his piety, not his relationship with God.


James 1:2 My brothers and sisters, consider it nothing but joy when you fall into all sorts of trials, 1:3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect effect, so that you will be perfect and complete, not deficient in anything. 1:5 But if anyone is deficient in wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to all generously and without reprimand, and it will be given to him.


Yet what does Job do? He curses the very day he was born as his hope was in the external, not the internal. As Eliphaz stated, his hope was in his perfect exterior piety and when his piety was put on trial, Job had nothing left to fall back on.



If you read what God has to say about Job in his conversation with the Satan, he makes no mention of Job's spiritual state. God knows the heart, but Satan only knows what he's able to see.


Job himself even confesses his sin after his ordeal, and look what it took for his eyes to be opened...


Job 42:5 I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye has seen you.
42:6 Therefore I despise myself, and I repent in dust and ashes!


I want to sum this up using Youngs Literal translation.


Job 42:17 and Job dieth, aged and satisfied [with] days


We can decipher two things from this passage.
1. Job is not Jewish. If he had been Jewish it would have said something to the effect of "Gathered unto thy fathers".
2. After his trial, he is satisfied. Why? Because he has seen God and has had a spiritual awakening because it is only ones relationship with our creator that is truly able to satisfy.

Well, that is interesting that we both read Job and came to 2 totally different conclusions. As for your statement "God doesn't just allow bad things to happen to good people for no reason. God has a plan and a purpose". I think the point of Job, which you will probably disagree with and that is okay, is sometimes bad things happen that man simply can not explain. Job`s friends went on and on trying to explain to Job why he was suffering. They touched on every humanly possible reason that Job could be suffering, but they all had it wrong. There was no way possible they could understand or figure out the real reason which was from a dialogue between satan and God. As humans our understanding is very limited to human experience and earthly things, but there is a whole universe beyond us of spiritual activity way beyond our understanding or experience. So sometimes trying to give a reason to something is foolishness because we speak without true understanding or knowledge. This is why when God finally answers Job He tells Job he can`t understand all His ways. Basically as humans our job is to trust, obey, and love God. Our job is not to figure out God`s reasoning. That is just beyond human capacity. We are to trust His reasoning is good and right, but we can`t begin to say we fully comprehend it. To try to come to God by figuring out His reasoning often becomes a stumbling block to faith. We can`t explain why bad things happen other than to say there is sin and satan in this world, but that is not enough for the person that went through the Holocaust. That is not enough for the child that is being sexually abused day after day despite crying out to God for help. That is not enough for the orphan thrown on the street by his parents and left to be abused day after day by strangers. That is not enough for children forced to kill their own parents in war torn Africa who plead for mercy not to have to do these heinous acts. All these people could say, but God could intervene. The child did not do anything to bring these sufferings on his head. We can`t explain these things other than on a very basic level which is evil is in this world. How do we explain to the person that cried out to Jesus and was still beat, starved, or molested? We can`t. But despite these things we can still trust, believe, and love God. This is what Job is all about. Bad, horrible, injust things that we can`t explain happen to good, faithful people, but if we maintain our faith, we can be sure God is with us all the way through and will bless us in the end. Our hope is bigger than the temporary suffering of this world.

 

[whitney]

pjt,
2. After his trial, he is satisfied. Why? Because he has seen God and has had a spiritual awakening because it is only ones relationship with our creator that is truly able to satisfy.

Stovebolts,
Reading through your posts, it brought up a few thoughts and was wondering if you had any thoughts.

First of all a sincere question, if he was not a Jew, why does it say that he was "perfect and upright" and "he feared God". How would he know who God was if he wasn't one? If other people, besides Jews, believed in God, did they do the Jewish customs?

Secondly, I quoted the part of your post that I was thinking about, also. Could it be a type/shadow for us today in that we are to lose everything to gain life; we leave the world and enter Christ

Thanks -
Whitney

 

[jasoncran]

Stovebolts,
Reading through your posts, it brought up a few thoughts and was wondering if you had any thoughts.

First of all a sincere question, if he was not a Jew, why does it say that he was "perfect and upright" and "he feared God". How would he know who God was if he wasn't one? If other people, besides Jews, believed in God, did they do the Jewish customs?

Secondly, I quoted the part of your post that I was thinking about, also. Could it be a type/shadow for us today in that we are to lose everything to gain life; we leave the world and enter Christ

Thanks -
Whitney

you are unaware the the hebrew wasnt until after abraham, and by tradition job lived before abraham.
also adam, and noah werent jews.

and there were gentile who did become jews
see the sons of joseph,
the woman rachab a cannanite
naomi a moabite

 

[pjt]

you are unaware the the hebrew wasnt until after abraham, and by tradition job lived before abraham.
also adam, and noah werent jews.

and there were gentile who did become jews
see the sons of joseph,
the woman rachab a cannanite
naomi a moabite

Abraham came from the line of Shem who was the son of Noah. Noah came from the line of Seth who was the son of Adam. They all shared the same blood. After the flood, the ark landed somewhere in Turkey near the border of Armenia. The sons of Japheth become the gentiles. They go to the coastal regions of Greece , Turkey, etc. Ham and Shem`s children we see scattered throughout the middle east. Abraham went all over. He went from modern day Iraq, through Syria to Turkey, to Israel, to Egypt and back to modern day Israel. So my point is when we look at a map and say Job was in Uz the Edom area of Israel, we can`t definitively say that makes him a gentile. People were moving about during these days. Second we have to define gentile. There was not a Hebrew nation at this time as Jason pointed out, and we don`t have Job`s geneology to trace his blood line, but we definitely see the God he worships and most likely this was passed down from his father, grandfather, etc. And we see his friends worship the same God so it would be safe to conclude he was of the Hebrew/Jewish faith and very likely the same bloodline. But I don`t think whether he was Jewish or not has anything to do with the story.

 

[whitney]

you are unaware the the hebrew wasnt until after abraham, and by tradition job lived before abraham.
also adam, and noah werent jews.

and there were gentile who did become jews
see the sons of joseph,
the woman rachab a cannanite
naomi a moabite

Oh, good point, but no I did not know Job supposively was before Abraham. I know there were gentiles who became Jews but was interested in finding out if there were people who believed in God who never became a Jew (like I thought maybe Job was).
Yet, I know it is off topic, was just curious.
Thanks for the clarification, jason.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The OLDEST book -

"I was wondering what lesson, or lessons, we learn from Job."

We see a picture of the functional relationship between God, satan, and a human - who has a couple of areas in his life (Leviathan, and Behemoth) that God needs to correct - and how SERIOUS the process of revelation leading to repentance can be.

It makes sense that this would be the FIRST book written, since the message is so central to the Christian experience.

 

[stovebolts]

Well, that is interesting that we both read Job and came to 2 totally different conclusions. As for your statement "God doesn't just allow bad things to happen to good people for no reason. God has a plan and a purpose". I think the point of Job, which you will probably disagree with and that is okay, is sometimes bad things happen that man simply can not explain. Job`s friends went on and on trying to explain to Job why he was suffering. They touched on every humanly possible reason that Job could be suffering, but they all had it wrong. There was no way possible they could understand or figure out the real reason which was from a dialogue between satan and God. As humans our understanding is very limited to human experience and earthly things, but there is a whole universe beyond us of spiritual activity way beyond our understanding or experience. So sometimes trying to give a reason to something is foolishness because we speak without true understanding or knowledge. This is why when God finally answers Job He tells Job he can`t understand all His ways. Basically as humans our job is to trust, obey, and love God. Our job is not to figure out God`s reasoning. That is just beyond human capacity. We are to trust His reasoning is good and right, but we can`t begin to say we fully comprehend it. To try to come to God by figuring out His reasoning often becomes a stumbling block to faith. We can`t explain why bad things happen other than to say there is sin and satan in this world, but that is not enough for the person that went through the Holocaust. That is not enough for the child that is being sexually abused day after day despite crying out to God for help. That is not enough for the orphan thrown on the street by his parents and left to be abused day after day by strangers. That is not enough for children forced to kill their own parents in war torn Africa who plead for mercy not to have to do these heinous acts. All these people could say, but God could intervene. The child did not do anything to bring these sufferings on his head. We can`t explain these things other than on a very basic level which is evil is in this world. How do we explain to the person that cried out to Jesus and was still beat, starved, or molested? We can`t. But despite these things we can still trust, believe, and love God. This is what Job is all about. Bad, horrible, injust things that we can`t explain happen to good, faithful people, but if we maintain our faith, we can be sure God is with us all the way through and will bless us in the end. Our hope is bigger than the temporary suffering of this world.

pjt,
You've got a lot going on in your reply, that's for sure; and I've experienced many of the pains you've listed plus some. Plain and simple, sometimes life's just not fair. That's the way it is. But that's not the point. The point is, how do we deal with these trials?

I've heard the explanation you've given before as it's widely taught throughout Christiandom. But honestly, I find that explanation lacking, and it's a shallow, surface level understanding. About the best I've read from any Christian source would be from Paul House, Old Testament Theology. But if you really want to understand Job, I would suggest getting this book. It's worth every penny.

Amazon.com: Iyov/Job: A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized from Talmudic, Midrashic & Rabbinic Sources (ArtScroll Tanach Series) (9780899060156): Rabbi Moshe Eisemann: Books

If we look at the calamities Job suffered, they are horrible for sure. But we really need to look at his initial response. For somebody with such a Pius position, his response is lacking horrendously from what would be expected from a man in his position.

Take a quick look at a Jewish response from the book of Lamentations. All around Jeremiah is destruction, famine, starvation, disease, even women eating their own babies and children. The city is in ruin, the temple where God's glory dwelt is destroyed and the people are in terrible dispair and Jeremiah is helpless. Yet how does Jeremiah respond? Does his respond by cursing the day he was born, or does he give praise to God? Where is Jeremiah's hope?

3:22 The Lord’s loyal kindness never ceases;
his compassions never end.
3:23 They are fresh every morning;
your faithfulness is abundant!
3:24 “My portion is the Lord,” I have said to myself,
so I will put my hope in him.

Do you see the difference between the response of Job, and that of Jeremiah? Jeremiah's hope is in the Lord when everything he knows is destroyed, and suffering surrounds him. Yet where is Job's hope? Is it not in the dust of the earth? Where is Job's relationship with YHVY?...


I was honored to hear Elie Wiesel speak one afternoon and he spoke on his experience in the concentration camp. The Jews understand suffering...

 

[stovebolts]

Stovebolts,
Reading through your posts, it brought up a few thoughts and was wondering if you had any thoughts.

First of all a sincere question, if he was not a Jew, why does it say that he was "perfect and upright" and "he feared God". How would he know who God was if he wasn't one? If other people, besides Jews, believed in God, did they do the Jewish customs?

Secondly, I quoted the part of your post that I was thinking about, also. Could it be a type/shadow for us today in that we are to lose everything to gain life; we leave the world and enter Christ

Thanks -
Whitney

Hi Whitney,

The line of the Jews is Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jacob wrestles with "the Angel of the LORD" and receives his new name, Israel. From Jacob, comes the 12 tribes of Jacob, or "Israel" as they are better known.

Language style is very important in Jewish writings. In Genesis 15, Abram is told that when he dies, he will "Go back to thy fathers". This is repeated with Jacob in Genesis 48. In Exodus 3:16, the nation of Israel is linked with "The LORD God of your fathers.

Had Job been a part of the line of Abraham, it would have been customary for scripture to state in regard to his death that he would "go back to thy fathers". Yet Scripture only says, "and Job dieth, aged and satisfied with days."

As far as Job being an upright fellow who feared God, there were many like this well before Abram who were not of Israel. Melchisedec, probably being the highest example that I could bring forth. As far as Jewish customs, I'm thinking your referring to the sacrificial system to which Job appears to be obeying? Even Cain and Able offered sacrifice, as did Noah etc.

As far as Job being a type of shadow... No. Actually I believe it is a parable with a very important message that is just as valid today as it was when it was written.

Hope this helps.

 

[stovebolts]

Abraham came from the line of Shem who was the son of Noah. Noah came from the line of Seth who was the son of Adam. They all shared the same blood. After the flood, the ark landed somewhere in Turkey near the border of Armenia. The sons of Japheth become the gentiles. They go to the coastal regions of Greece , Turkey, etc. Ham and Shem`s children we see scattered throughout the middle east. Abraham went all over. He went from modern day Iraq, through Syria to Turkey, to Israel, to Egypt and back to modern day Israel. So my point is when we look at a map and say Job was in Uz the Edom area of Israel, we can`t definitively say that makes him a gentile. People were moving about during these days. Second we have to define gentile. There was not a Hebrew nation at this time as Jason pointed out, and we don`t have Job`s geneology to trace his blood line, but we definitely see the God he worships and most likely this was passed down from his father, grandfather, etc. And we see his friends worship the same God so it would be safe to conclude he was of the Hebrew/Jewish faith and very likely the same bloodline. But I don`t think whether he was Jewish or not has anything to do with the story.

The word the Jews use to describe anyone outside of Abraham would by Goyim (gentile). Even the Canaanites, who came from the sons of Noah were considered Goyim.

 

[whitney]

Hi Whitney,

The line of the Jews is Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jacob wrestles with "the Angel of the LORD" and receives his new name, Israel. From Jacob, comes the 12 tribes of Jacob, or "Israel" as they are better known.

Language style is very important in Jewish writings. In Genesis 15, Abram is told that when he dies, he will "Go back to thy fathers". This is repeated with Jacob in Genesis 48. In Exodus 3:16, the nation of Israel is linked with "The LORD God of your fathers.

Had Job been a part of the line of Abraham, it would have been customary for scripture to state in regard to his death that he would "go back to thy fathers". Yet Scripture only says, "and Job dieth, aged and satisfied with days."

As far as Job being an upright fellow who feared God, there were many like this well before Abram who were not of Israel. Melchisedec, probably being the highest example that I could bring forth. As far as Jewish customs, I'm thinking your referring to the sacrificial system to which Job appears to be obeying? Even Cain and Able offered sacrifice, as did Noah etc.

As far as Job being a type of shadow... No. Actually I believe it is a parable with a very important message that is just as valid today as it was when it was written.

Hope this helps.

It does, thanks for your answer. I was thinking of the sacrifical system, although in a much more Israelite sense as in after the entire "way of life" was implemented.
Thanks again.

 

[pjt]

I disagree that this is shallow. I think quite the contrary. It is a bit prideful to think we have all the answers. To think that we can fully be on the same reasoning level as God. To think we know it all, even the things going on in the spiritual sphere.

If God has a purpose and plan for everything and we can provide an explanation for it all, then we can`t say life is simply not fair. This was the dialogue going on with Job and his friends. Job was saying his suffering was not fair but his friends argued it was because his sin brought it on his own head and he needed to own up to it. On the other hand, if we admit there are things going on in this world that we don`t understand, then we can say they feel or seem unfair. Job was calling out to God just show him what he did wrong to deserve this and he would repent! Job did not feel he deserved this suffering and God said he did not deserve it.

As for dealing with the trials, Job`s first response was one of worship and God was pleased with Job. His next response was also in defense of God`s sovereignty to bestow good and bad as He deemed right. Job`s responses were pleasing to God. Job did not start showing despair until chapter 3 after his wife told him to die. But even Jesus in facing crucifixion asked God if it is possible to remove this cup from Him. Jesus didn`t jump for joy over suffering either. But the thing about Job is even though he suffered, he maintained his faith. He expressed the hardship of the suffering but he never turned on God.

As for commentaries, I think they have a use and a place, but I rely primarily on what I read directly from the Bible. With commentaries, you are getting people`s opinions about what they read so commentaries can be as diverse as the opinions on this message board. They are not facts. I don`t and can`t read them like the Bible. When I read Job, I clearly read that God is saying he is a perfect man. I read that Job takes his faith seriously. I read the reason all this fell on Job is because of what was going on in the spiritual realm with God and satan. I read that God declares the injustice of this. I read that God`s "wrath" is aroused against Job`s friends because God said "for you have not spoken of Me what is right, as my servant Job has". God vindicated Job in the end because Job had been falsely accused by his friends and injustly treated by satan. And because Job went through this without turning on God, God greatly restored Job. God said in the end, Job 42:7, that Job was right and the friends were wrong. I don`t need a commentary to explain that to me. I understand this clearly.

I also find Elie Wiesel to be an honorable man. He has an excellent perspective on things and is well worth reading or listening to. But even he says when he gets to heaven he has a lot of questions for God. He said to give meaning to the Holocaust is an insult. We just can`t give meaning to such evil. Only God can explain that. I think he is right.

 

[stovebolts]

you are unaware the the hebrew wasnt until after abraham, and by tradition job lived before abraham.

Hi Jason,

from what I have read, Jewish tradition is all over the place trying to date Job. I have read one account where he is a contemporary with Abram, but most put Job in the time of Moses, and a few try to date him to the 2nd temple era. I'm a bit fuzzy so please, don't quote me as I may be completely mistaken, but I thought one tradition was that he was present when pharaoh threw the Hebrew babies in the nile and failed to stick up for the Jews, which is why God brought these calamities upon him. Although this is dismissed though other traditions. The over all consensus is that Job is a parable.

 

[stovebolts]

pjt,

It was not my intent to insult you by saying that your explanation was shallow. If that explanation is enough for you, then God bless you. For me, that answer does not satisfy me and I find it lacking.

As Christians, we are to ask, seek and knock. Scriptures states that Job was a God fearing man from the very mouth of God, yet even Job repents of his sin in the end and elsewhere scripture states that fear is the beginning of wisdom, and further more, scripture states elsewhere that God is love and that God does not give us a spirit of fear, but of love. Elsewhere scripture states that there is no fear in love and perfect llove drives out fear. Yes, Job did fear the Lord, but it was only the beginning of wisdom, for until this experience, Job was only wise in his own eyes and knew not love for God until after his trial, which is why I believe scriptures states that he was "satisfied" upon his death.

As far as Jesus, he did not want to suffer. He did not want to die who unlike Job, wished to die when all he had, all he knew was gone. Jeremiah was in the same type situation as Job, yet his hope remained in the Lord. Yes, Job was all those things God credits him with outwardly at the time they were said, but God is interested with the inside of Job, something the Satan cannot see.

Like yourself, I have read Job many, many times and personally, I have attempted to decipher the arguments presented. However, what I don't have is a good grasp on Torah as most Christians don't either. Thus, I've struggled to discern the various arguments through the lens of the Jewish law. It is through this aspect, that I rely on Jewish commentary.

 

[pjt]

pjt,

It was not my intent to insult you by saying that your explanation was shallow. If that explanation is enough for you, then God bless you. For me, that answer does not satisfy me and I find it lacking.

As Christians, we are to ask, seek and knock. Scriptures states that Job was a God fearing man from the very mouth of God, yet even Job repents of his sin in the end and elsewhere scripture states that fear is the beginning of wisdom, and further more, scripture states elsewhere that God is love and that God does not give us a spirit of fear, but of love. Elsewhere scripture states that there is no fear in love and perfect llove drives out fear. Yes, Job did fear the Lord, but it was only the beginning of wisdom, for until this experience, Job was only wise in his own eyes and knew not love for God until after his trial, which is why I believe scriptures states that he was "satisfied" upon his death.

As far as Jesus, he did not want to suffer. He did not want to die who unlike Job, wished to die when all he had, all he knew was gone. Jeremiah was in the same type situation as Job, yet his hope remained in the Lord. Yes, Job was all those things God credits him with outwardly at the time they were said, but God is interested with the inside of Job, something the Satan cannot see.

Like yourself, I have read Job many, many times and personally, I have attempted to decipher the arguments presented. However, what I don't have is a good grasp on Torah as most Christians don't either. Thus, I've struggled to discern the various arguments through the lens of the Jewish law. It is through this aspect, that I rely on Jewish commentary.

I did not take it as a personal insult although my writing may seem like that. It is very difficult sometimes to write what one wants to say but add the emotion with it! I understand what you are saying. I was just saying I disagree that the whole philosophy/belief that we can`t understand everything is shallow, but I do believe there is a time for all things. So there will be a time eventually whether in this life or the next that we will/can understand, but understanding is not always within our grasp at the moment because as humans we are limited. And that does satisfy me. Of course, if something bad happens especially an injustice, I want to know why. That is human nature, but if I can`t definitively put a cause on it, I can be content knowing some things are just beyond my own understanding but I can trust God. Anyway, that`s just the way I look at it.
As for a Jewish commentary, I too find they can be very enlightening to understanding all the scriptures from the OT to NT. There is a lot Jews can teach Gentiles about the Bible especially the Old Testament because the OT was written specifically to the Jews. It was speaking from their cultural language and understanding of things that is foreign to most Gentiles. So I don`t discount a Jewish or any commentary, but personally I always keep in mind that a commentary is an opinion. It is an educated and researched opinion but still an opinion that allows one person to read about Jesus and conclude He is the only way to God and the next PhD scholar can read the same passage and conclude Jesus was a good man and there are many avenues to God. And even in the Jewish community we see great diversity in understanding of the scriptures from ultra conservative to ultra liberal so personally when I read the Bible, I pray for understanding. If I understand it, I move on, but if I come to a difficult place I then pull out my concordance and try to find other things in the Bible to give me answers. If I am still at a loss, then I go to a commentary or ask others opinions. But when I seek the opinion of others I always keep in mind that it is an opininon. Sometimes I conclude they are right and feel well informed after reading or hearing, and sometimes I still have my question.