What do you think of Seventh-Day Adventists??

[Soma-Sight]

Actually my grandfather built an Adventist Church in Calimesa CA. He also built the private school I attended as a lad. I come from that background. I just don't like the way they distance themselves from the rest of the Christians and have an attitude that seems to be focused on trying to fulfill the law without Christ sometimes. (I am not saying this is true of all Adventists).

 

[Vic C.]

Like I said in an earlier post. take away the doctrine of Investigative Judgement and the instistance on Saturday worship and you basically have another evangelical denomination. They are not the same SDA as in the 1800's. Actually, they should call themselves the SDSA. (Seventh Day Second Adventists) :wink:

 

[John the Baptist]

Like I said in an earlier post. take away the doctrine of Investigative Judgement and the instistance on Saturday worship and you basically have another evangelical denomination. They are not the same SDA as in the 1800's. Actually, they should call themselves the SDSA. (Seventh Day Second Adventists) :wink:

*****
Hi Vicjr, surprise, huh?
Anyway, what you say above is interesting. You have studied most likely about .. 'Except there come A FALLING AWAY FIRST' (2 Thess. 2:1-3) Just befor Christ comes?

Now: Who fell away in Christ's day, Israel or the followers of Christ???
Who left whom? Who was the TRUE denomination now? So in your above comment, who fell away, the early Adventist or the latter Adventist? (The SDSA ones) No wink, this is a serious question posed by me?

One last thought. About their 3 angels messages of Rev. 14:6-10. It was a tought message! True or false is not the question, ok? Here is the question. If the early Adventist belived that the Great Whore was Rome & that her Daughters are now ex/protestants, (yes there ARE saved ignorant saints inside of ALL-Rev. 18:4) and then as we see the labeled ones by you as SDSA which now say ... NO! this Whore & Abomination of the earth & her daughters are NOW CALLED CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS! So.. Who has left whom?? Who HAS fallen away? Remember that both have the same PROFESSED VIRGIN doctrines. (As did Israel of old & the Masters New Denomination-see Matt. 23

Again now. The question is not are there good saved Christians inside the Great Whore or her Daughters. The QUESTION is, if these denominations are the great whore & her daughters, then there is NO WAY THAT THEY CAN BE CALLED CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS by Adventist's and still be in league with Christ's Word in the 3 Angels Messages of Rev. 14:6-10.

If these is true, then even among Adventist's their message of Rev. 18:4 is a Truth!

---John

 

[garrettms1]

bump

 

[John the Baptist]

bump

*******
??? Try John 10:16 or Eph. 4:5 or Rev. 18:4 then, for starters!

 

[candypeaches281]

church sat or sunday that is the ?

Now I sure everyone on the sight is well aware that the early day church of Jesus time they where not aclled christians and there was no word called christianity that came later, and is a man made term. They where the follower's of Christ, nothing more nothing less.
I sure everyone knows that the early followers of christ they held church on sat not sunday. Now for whatever reson, the church changed the day from sat to sunday, which when u ask ur pastor about it, they say yes church use to be on sat, but now we hold it on sunday, and they dont give you an valid answer as to why it was change.
That alone tells you they dont want to tell u, for then you will see the flaws of that demonation, and u will see the truth of what is God made and what is man made religion.
I do go to church on sunday, since most churches meet on sunday, but I know for a fact that the early day church did not start services on sunday, they started on sat. I have been to many churches and when you ask the pastor they agree,but they dont have an reason why it was changed, and they can not back up the change though the bible.
While I do have a problem with this, along with many things that churches say and do but they cant back it up in the bible,
But some churches we call Cults, cuz they dont follow the bible well their are also churchs that dont follow the bible word for word, and have things that they cant show u where its at, why are these churchs not also consider a Cult?
I been to Bapist churhes that say the bible says no dancing but the word dancing is in the bible, I been to church that so no speaking in tounges but tounges where spoke in the bible, I been to churches that pray using a rosery but the word rosery and useing it to pray, and also pray to mary for guidance, but the bible dont have a spot in there where mary was being prayed too.
I not trying to nock down any one faith, but folks have been kind of hard core about this seven day church group. My point is the church u go to has flaws that can not be proven in the bible the same as my church, so who are we to say what churches are cults and what churches are not.
The way I see it if your church adds things or takes away things and can not back up that adding or taking away by the bible alone, then u have not no right to judge who or what church is with christ teaching.
I think we get too caught up on the man made side of faith, instead of the God side of faith.
So sat or sunday? Does it matter , I think not, cuz we all follow a man made religion, what we need to worry about is the faith the true christ like faith inside of us all

 

[Elijah message]

I think we get too caught up on the man made side of faith, instead of the God side of faith.
So sat or sunday? Does it matter , I think not, cuz we all follow a man made religion, what we need to worry about is the faith the true christ like faith inside of us all

*********

Elijah here:
There are ten commandments. Sin is defined as the breaking of any one of them! 1 John 3:4. One says to not kill. So using your logic, why is the 7th day Sabbath any differant than that of killing in the name of your faith in CHRIST???

James 2:8-12 tells us if one were to break any one of the ten, that they are guilty of breaking them[ALL]. And.. that this Royal law of Liberty will be our standard of judgement to see if 'your post is correct or not.?? And if you are wrong, with your man made side of faith remark?? your liberty will be defined as being a lawbreaker!

 

[guibox]

Regarding SDAs

There has been SOOO much misinformation, contradiction and hypocrisy concerning SDAs that most people don't want to know the facts. rather, it is much easier to listen to their church leaders and brand them a 'cult'. This narrow minded thinking is why we have false doctrine and prejudice in our midst. I am an SDA and proud of it despite some of our shortcomings (of which we ALL have as churches, something many won't admit. "We have the truth and you're a cult!!" Sounds cultic to me....Anyway.

Let me set it out for you straight what SDAs believe that people label them a 'cult' by. This is followed by a few comments. They believe:

1) That the Seventh Day is the Sabbath of God and is still binding for Christians

This view has much biblical support and is regarded as doctrine by other denominations (the Seventh Day Baptists introduced this to those that would become the founders of the SDA church) and many scholars and leaders in regular Protestant denominations. Far from a 'cultic' doctrine.

2) That our works do not save us, only the sacrifice of Christ and believing in it gives us righteousness and eternal life

This has to be the most laughable 'myth' debunking SDAs. SDAs have NEVER believed that works have saved us, even the most fundamental of our pioneers. Paul says "Faith without works is dead". If we claim to love God and don't follow His commands, the 'truth is not in us'. Good works will be an automatic result of a changed heart. We keep God's commands not TO BE saved but BECAUSE we are saved. It is a loving response. any Christian denomination worth their salt will tell you the same thing.

3) That man does not have an immortal soul, but rather that our hope of eternal life is found in the resurrection

This view is completely biblical and has more and more converts from other denominations daily because people are studying the scriptures and seeing that there is much merit to this belief. Again, far from a 'cultic' doctrine.

4) That Ellen White is an inspired prophet of God who'se purpose (like other prophets) is to uplift and edify the church

Unfortunately, many SDAs have abused Ellen White, misquoted her, and used her as the 'be all and end all' of theology. EGW herself always told people to go to the bible and not take her word for it. A prophet's job was not to dictate and be infallible on points of theology. EGW has never said that was her role, certain Adventists have done that. EGW was human and fallible and herself admitted it as such. As far as plagiarism goes, White herself said that what she was shown in vision was explained much better by others than herself, which is why some of her writings are from other sources. Plagarism was a normal thing back then. Anyone who has looked at her writings and seen how much they magnify the scriptures (much like modern day writers like Max Lucado do) they would change their tune. I encourage anyone to read Desire of Ages on the life of Christ before they judge. To find any little thing wrong with her and say that she is a 'false prophet' is to miss what the role of a prophet was and to ignore that God can use all of us in different roles, including prophets.

5) That man ultimately will be destroyed and not tortured for eternity. the wages of sin is death

Again, a very biblical argument that has been around since the church has existed. This view is not only shared by other denominations, but like the immortality of the soul, is gaining more and more converts daily. I can't figure out how a biblically based view that makes God merciful, loving and just is considered 'heresy' and 'cultic'

6) That there is an investigative judgment and that it began in 1844

This is the only view that I (and others in the SDA church) question. There has been discussion amongst ourselves that perhaps this view needs to be revisited. Does this negate the WHOLE church or its message? Regardless of what some SDAs think, to change our view on this topic is not to undermine or do way with EGW's role as a prophet or to undermine the faith. Even though EGW endorsed it in her time, progressive revelation and 'new light' were always encouraged by her and was not necessarily taken into consideration by the church's pioneers. What was needed for the growth and survival of the church was what God allowed them to discover at the time. It served a purpose even if it might be wrong. That doesn't mean that there can't be new light on the matter, or progressive revelation at a later time for a different purpose.

However, having said that, the investigative judgment is an opening of the books to show the Accuser' and the universe that God is wise in his judgments and to whom His merits are given. It is not a judgment where Christians might be found unworthy and scratched out of the book of life. Rather, the investigative judgment is a 'vindication' of the saints, not a judgment. I don't see anything 'cultic' or inherently wrong in this view.

I do question the interpretation of Daniel 8 and other time prophecies. This doesn't shake my faith in the church at all as no church is infallible. There are many mistaken views in all churches. Perhaps it is time that others start looking at their own faith and seeing where it may not follow scripture. Rather, everything is branded 'cultic' if it doesn't follow the mainstream. This is basically saying that all the other churches have the truth. To me this is more cultic thinking than anything.

The Seventh Day Adventists are not a cult. They are a saved by grace, Bible believing, Christ following Protestant denomination. Even if I left the Adventist church tomorrow I would still believe in the Sabbath and the State of the Dead. Why? Because these are biblical, not Adventist. And yet they would still be considered 'cultic' by many. :roll:

 

[Elijah message]

That is from a SDA member in good standing? Why then have a Rev. 18:4 message? Other folds that are as this one openly admits???? "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE"??? (Well Jay, are you there? Or are you as silent as the Eze. 37 DEAD???) They even question basic Adventist doctrines out in the OPEN, huh?

One thing for sure is, is that there are many in good standing who would never get into the church rolls some few years ago! See Josh. 7:12 last part of the verse! ---Elijah

PS: By the way, the works book was James, (2) not Paul.

 

[Elijah message]

OK: Let it be said differently?? These folks are a large growing number inside Adventism. With many other 'winds' +, of 'doctrine' being permitted! Such as even having 'dual' membership (as documented in the Court files) in the Adventist denomination & the General Conf. of the Homosexual Kinship (separate) denomination.

And it is being said by 'some' here 'That they are telling it straight?? Yet, the call from God, is.. "TO COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE AND BE *NOT PARTAKERS OF HER SINS". (Or Obad. 16 will apply)

Clarify that? OK: All in membership are said to be PARTAKER's OF HER SINS! [ALL ARE INCLUSIVE!!]

Now: Some of these 'straight' (??? ) talkers might say that this is Babylon & not Adventism? Well, is Babylon's sin less offensive to Christ that the ones seen in Luke 12:47-48?? See Joshua 7:12 with its last part of the verse!

Babylon is a goner! With her 'fatal' openly flawed doctrines (Rev. 17:5) doctrines, and the FILTH of openly seen Sodom and Gomorrha. The two are not much different.

So are Adventism & Babylon much different? NO. But lets see Christ' Words of Israel, His first 'rejected' Virgin Fold!
"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, [It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gommorrha in the day of judgement, than for that city.]" Matt. 10:15-16.
(one can see verse 5-6 ibid. for who these ones are)

As went Israel of old, so [went] 7th. day Adventism of today! Sure Lord I love you, but your apostate 'ABOMINAL' fold is more important than 'You'! See Isa. 5:3
".. JUDGE, I PRAY YOU, BETWIXT ME AND MY VINEYARD[/u]." v. 7 tells who the Virgin Vineyard was.

Does one remember that there was a 'Midnight Cry' for Israel of old, from the outside? They were ALL SLEEPING! John The Baptist even had CONVERTS on the outside. It seems that this one who baptised Christ was the one who had the STRAIGHT MESSAGE! With even the Father's Blessing seen at the Baptism!
---Elijah

 

[evanman]

I have never met anyone who is able to keep the first commandment. If you cannot keep the first great commandment, what good will it do to you to "go to church on a Saturday"?

 

[Elijah message]

I have never met anyone who is able to keep the first commandment. If you cannot keep the first great commandment, what good will it do to you to "go to church on a Saturday"?

*******
You sure do have a way about you friend?? 2 Cor. 4:2. [See Gen. 4:7 as a question?]

I question your [post] because of what [it] says. Here is what the Word of God says: (If ones believes the Word?)

"I CAN DO ALL THINGS THINGS THROUGH CHRIST WHICH STRENGTHENETH ME." Phil. 4:13

"And He said unto me, MY STRENGTH IS SUFFICIENT FOR THEE: FOR MY STRENGTH IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS."

And what is being said in [your post] comes straight from an unconverted carnal thought or worse?? Either way, it is openly defying the above Word of my Master!

If this is really your understanding?? Then you best find out what being perfect is *really all about? And re/study John 3:3 to see if you have a correct understanding of what being Born Again is all about? 2 Cor. 3:3.

---Elijah

 

[guibox]

And it is being said by 'some' here 'That they are telling it straight?? Yet, the call from God, is.. "TO COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE AND BE *NOT PARTAKERS OF HER SINS". (Or Obad. 16 will apply)

Clarify that? OK: All in membership are said to be PARTAKER's OF HER SINS! [ALL ARE INCLUSIVE!!]

Now: Some of these 'straight' (??? ) talkers might say that this is Babylon & not Adventism? Well, is Babylon's sin less offensive to Christ that the ones seen in Luke 12:47-48?? See Joshua 7:12 with its last part of the verse!

Babylon is a goner! With her 'fatal' openly flawed doctrines (Rev. 17:5) doctrines, and the FILTH of openly seen Sodom and Gomorrha. The two are not much different.

So are Adventism & Babylon much different? NO. But lets see Christ' Words of Israel, His first 'rejected' Virgin Fold!

Elijah message, what are you talking about?? You're babbling like John the Baptist and not making any sense!

Is this the old, "The Adventist Church is slipping into apostasy" clap-trap argument that the quack, fringe fundamentalist groups spout off against the church? We know where their spirit lies, don't we?

by Evanman
I have never met anyone who is able to keep the first commandment. If you cannot keep the first great commandment, what good will it do to you to "go to church on a Saturday"?

And this argument proves...what? I guess if I can't keep the 1st commandment, I can go out and sleep with another man's wife. After all, the flesh is weak...It is not a matter of what you are able to keep, evanman. It is a matter of obeying God and doing what He says because we love Him. As a matter of fact, anyone who tries to keep the commandments on their own or to find merit with God is a legalist.

The "good" is that we take time out for God to work His salvation process within us. It is a time of fellowship and anti-legalism where I say, "God, I can't do it on my own. I need your presence in my life and your fellowship". Folks say that the SDAs are legalists because they keep the Sabbath. Rather it is the exact OPPOSITE of legalism. We keep the Sabbath to show that we can't do it on our own, but God through us.

Why do folks worship on Sunday? They decided to make it holy, not God. To me THAT is legalism.

 

[Elijah message]

Elijah message, what are you talking about?? You're babbling like John the Baptist and not making any sense!

Is this the old, "The Adventist Church is slipping into apostasy" clap-trap argument that the quack, fringe fundamentalist groups spout off against the church? We know where their spirit lies, don't we?

**********
Elijah here:

OK: Are you suggesting that your Gen.4:7 message is presenting the 'spirit/less/ness' of christ and adventism??????? I FULLY AGREE THAT IT DOES!!
Twisting, omitting, suggesting +! See 2 Cor. 4:2 again forum. Surely, adventism has been infiltrated with Jesuits as well as the Rev. 17:5 ones! And they are going all over the world making converts, and when they are made? They make them two times the more of hell,
than themselves! See Matt. 23:15's Hypocrites! (that is Christ' mark..!])

Now:you can see the attacks on the person, not the scriptural message! That is the 'spirit' of their new leader. See Matt. 10:23 And this is what comes before the Mark of the Beast! (1 Peter 4:17's shaking & separating)
And these shaken OUT ones are the ones that stay in & make up the Rev. 3:9 fold of adventism. See Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 again!

Now pay CLOSE attention to the Master's WORDS! "ALL THAT THEY BID YOU DO, THAT OBSERVE AND DO; (Virgin doctrine/wise) but do not after their WORKS, for they say and do not."

The DOCTRINES this poster says, are [flawed]. (she, he, or whatever?)

Wow! They can keep these Born (pre/posted Partakers) Again members that are 'yoked into their 'c'hristless membership' are all Partakers of her sins. See what they have become in Rev. 3:9! Do they know it? See Rev. 3:16-17's SPEWED OUT ONES MESSAGE!

OK: Jay T., tell us which side that 'you ' are on?? Yoked with this and robbing God by supporting this stuff with His tithe's and offering??
: ---Elijah

 

[guibox]

Ok, Elijah, quit your babbling rhetoric. Come out and say what you mean in a normal way here. You're not the crazy voice crying out in the wilderness.

Are you saying that because I question certain dogmas of the church, I am an apostate SDA? Jesuits infiltrating the church? Do you honestly believe that nonsense?

Unless our church is willing to be bible based, sola scriptura followers (of which we seem to think we are the only ones in the Protestant world who do), then we need to quit being SDA Apoligetics and supporters of the word.

If our beliefs are grounded in scripture, the church will go through. If they are not or are questionable, then we need to step up as a church and re-evaluate some of the doctrines. To not do so is to kill our church, not preserve it. We should not be afraid to have some of our doctrines come under scrutiny. What do we have to hide?

Would you rather be the laughing stock of the Christian world and not be taken seriously or would you rather have folks sit up and take notice and say, "Man, I think these Adventists have something here?"

I for one am tired of the false propaganda thathe SDA church has been subjected to. I am also tired when our own people further that ignorance.

 

[Elijah message]

---There is what Seventh-day Adventist Believe---

TEST ALL POSTERS BY THESE DOCTRINES to see if they are Adventist in name even? Then test the Church itself & see if they are the Repeat of Israel o old? Matt. 23:2 ---Elijah
***********************************


These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church's understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture
Seventh-day Adventists accept the Bible as their only creed and hold certain fundamental beliefs to be the teaching of the Holy Scriptures. These beliefs, as set forth here, constitute the church's understanding and expression of the teaching of Scripture. Revision of these statements may be expected at a General Conference session when the church is led by the Holy Spirit to a fuller understanding of Bible truth or finds better language in which to express the teachings of God's Holy Word.

See the Official Statements page for official statements of the Seventh-day Adventist church about current topics.


1. The Holy Scriptures:
The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)

2. The Trinity:
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)


3. The Father:
God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father. (Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)

4. The Son:
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

5. The Holy Spirit:
God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ's life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God. Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth. (Gen. 1:1, 2; Luke 1:35; 4:18; Acts 10:38; 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:11, 12; Acts 1:8; John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:7-13.)

6. Creation:
God is Creator of all things, and has revealed in Scripture the authentic account of His creative activity. In six days the Lord made "the heaven and the earth" and all living things upon the earth, and rested on the seventh day of that first week. Thus He established the Sabbath as a perpetual memorial of His completed creative work. The first man and woman were made in the image of God as the crowning work of Creation, given dominion over the world, and charged with responsibility to care for it. When the world was finished it was ``very good,'' declaring the glory of God. (Gen. 1; 2; Ex. 20:8-11; Ps. 19:1-6; 33:6, 9; 104; Heb. 11:3.)

7. The Nature of Man:
Man and woman were made in the image of God with individuality, the power and freedom to think and to do. Though created free beings, each is an indivisible unity of body, mind, and spirit, dependent upon God for life and breath and all else. When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Their descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. They are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil. But God in Christ reconciled the world to Himself and by His Spirit restores in penitent mortals the image of their Maker. Created for the glory of God, they are called to love Him and one another, and to care for their environment. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:7; Ps. 8:4-8; Acts 17:24-28; Gen. 3; Ps. 51:5; Rom. 5:12-17; 2 Cor. 5:19, 20; Ps. 51:10; 1 John 4:7, 8, 11, 20; Gen. 2:15.)

8. The Great Controversy:
All humanity is now involved in a great controversy between Christ and Satan regarding the character of God, His law, and His sovereignty over the universe. This conflict originated in heaven when a created being, endowed with freedom of choice, in self-exaltation became Satan, God's adversary, and led into rebellion a portion of the angels. He introduced the spirit of rebellion into this world when he led Adam and Eve into sin. This human sin resulted in the distortion of the image of God in humanity, the disordering of the created world, and its eventual devastation at the time of the worldwide flood. Observed by the whole creation, this world became the arena of the universal conflict, out of which the God of love will ultimately be vindicated. To assist His people in this controversy, Christ sends the Holy Spirit and the loyal angels to guide, protect, and sustain them in the way of salvation. (Rev. 12:4-9; Isa. 14:12-14; Eze. 28:12-18; Gen. 3; Rom. 1:19-32; 5:12-21; 8:19-22; Gen. 6-8; 2 Peter 3:6; 1 Cor. 4:9; Heb. 1:14.)

9. The Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ:
In Christ's life of perfect obedience to God's will, His suffering, death, and resurrection, God provided the only means of atonement for human sin, so that those who by faith accept this atonement may have eternal life, and the whole creation may better understand the infinite and holy love of the Creator. This perfect atonement vindicates the righteousness of God's law and the graciousness of His character; for it both condemns our sin and provides for our forgiveness. The death of Christ is substitutionary and expiatory, reconciling and transforming. The resurrection of Christ proclaims God's triumph over the forces of evil, and for those who accept the atonement assures their final victory over sin and death. It declares the Lordship of Jesus Christ, before whom every knee in heaven and on earth will bow. (John 3:16; Isa. 53; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4, 20-22; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 19-21; Rom. 1:4; 3:25; 4:25; 8:3, 4; 1 John 2:2; 4:10; Col. 2:15; Phil. 2:6-11.)

10. The Experience of Salvation:
In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.)

11. The Church:
The church is the community of believers who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. In continuity with the people of God in Old Testament times, we are called out from the world; and we join together for worship, for fellowship, for instruction in the Word, for the celebration of the Lord's Supper, for service to all mankind, and for the worldwide proclamation of the gospel. The church derives its authority from Christ, who is the incarnate Word, and from the Scriptures, which are the written Word. The church is God's family; adopted by Him as children, its members live on the basis of the new covenant. The church is the body of Christ, a community of faith of which Christ Himself is the Head. The church is the bride for whom Christ died that He might sanctify and cleanse her. At His return in triumph, He will present her to Himself a glorious church, the faithful of all the ages, the purchase of His blood, not having spot or wrinkle, but holy and without blemish. (Gen. 12:3; Acts 7:38; Eph. 4:11-15; 3:8-11; Matt. 28:19, 20; 16:13-20; 18:18; Eph. 2:19-22; 1:22, 23; 5:23-27; Col. 1:17, 18.)

12. The Remnant and Its Mission:
The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness. (Rev. 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:10; Jude 3, 14; 1 Peter 1:16-19; 2 Peter 3:10-14; Rev. 21:1-14.)

13. Unity in the Body of Christ:
The church is one body with many members, called from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. In Christ we are a new creation; distinctions of race, culture, learning, and nationality, and differences between high and low, rich and poor, male and female, must not be divisive among us. We are all equal in Christ, who by one Spirit has bonded us into one fellowship with Him and with one another; we are to serve and be served without partiality or reservation. Through the revelation of Jesus Christ in the Scriptures we share the same faith and hope, and reach out in one witness to all. This unity has its source in the oneness of the triune God, who has adopted us as His children. (Rom. 12:4, 5; 1 Cor. 12:12-14; Matt. 28:19, 20; Ps. 133:1; 2 Cor. 5:16, 17; Acts 17:26, 27; Gal. 3:27, 29; Col. 3:10-15; Eph. 4:14-16; 4:1-6; John 17:20-23.)

14. Baptism:
By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Rom. 6:1-6; Col. 2:12, 13; Acts 16:30-33; 22:16; 2:38; Matt. 28:19, 20.)

15. The Lord's Supper:
The Lord's Supper is a participation in the emblems of the body and blood of Jesus as an expression of faith in Him, our Lord and Saviour. In this experience of communion Christ is present to meet and strengthen His people. As we partake, we joyfully proclaim the Lord's death until He comes again. Preparation for the Supper includes self-examination, repentance, and confession. The Master ordained the service of foot washing to signify renewed cleansing, to express a willingness to serve one another in Christlike humility, and to unite our hearts in love. The communion service is open to all believing Christians. (1 Cor. 10:16, 17; 11:23-30; Matt. 26:17-30; Rev. 3:20; John 6:48-63; 13:1-17.)

16. Spiritual Gifts and Ministries:
God bestows upon all members of His church in every age spiritual gifts which each member is to employ in loving ministry for the common good of the church and of humanity. Given by the agency of the Holy Spirit, who apportions to each member as He wills, the gifts provide all abilities and ministries needed by the church to fulfill its divinely ordained functions. According to the Scriptures, these gifts include such ministries as faith, healing, prophecy, proclamation, teaching, administration, reconciliation, compassion, and self-sacrificing service and charity for the help and encouragement of people. Some members are called of God and endowed by the Spirit for functions recognized by the church in pastoral, evangelistic, apostolic, and teaching ministries particularly needed to equip the members for service, to build up the church to spiritual maturity, and to foster unity of the faith and knowledge of God. When members employ these spiritual gifts as faithful stewards of God's varied grace, the church is protected from the destructive influence of false doctrine, grows with a growth that is from God, and is built up in faith and love. (Rom. 12:4-8; 1 Cor. 12:9-11, 27, 28; Eph. 4:8, 11-16; Acts 6:1-7; 1 Tim. 3:1-13; 1 Peter 4:10, 11.)

17. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

18. The Law of God:
The great principles of God's law are embodied in the Ten Commandments and exemplified in the life of Christ. They express God's love, will, and purposes concerning human conduct and relationships and are binding upon all people in every age. These precepts are the basis of God's covenant with His people and the standard in God's judgment. Through the agency of the Holy Spirit they point out sin and awaken a sense of need for a Saviour. Salvation is all of grace and not of works, but its fruitage is obedience to the Commandments. This obedience develops Christian character and results in a sense of well-being. It is an evidence of our love for the Lord and our concern for our fellow men. The obedience of faith demonstrates the power of Christ to transform lives, and therefore strengthens Christian witness. (Ex. 20:1-17; Ps. 40:7, 8; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 28:1-14; Matt. 5:17-20; Heb. 8:8-10; John 15:7-10; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 John 5:3; Rom. 8:3, 4; Ps. 19:7-14.)

19. The Sabbath:
The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)

20. Stewardship:
We are God's stewards, entrusted by Him with time and opportunities, abilities and possessions, and the blessings of the earth and its resources. We are responsible to Him for their proper use. We acknowledge God's ownership by faithful service to Him and our fellow men, and by returning tithes and giving offerings for the proclamation of His gospel and the support and growth of His church. Stewardship is a privilege given to us by God for nurture in love and the victory over selfishness and covetousness. The steward rejoices in the blessings that come to others as a result of his faithfulness. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:15; 1 Chron. 29:14; Haggai 1:3-11; Mal. 3:8-12; 1 Cor. 9:9-14; Matt. 23:23; 2 Cor. 8:1-15; Rom. 15:26, 27.)

21. Christian Behavior:
We are called to be a godly people who think, feel, and act in harmony with the principles of heaven. For the Spirit to recreate in us the character of our Lord we involve ourselves only in those things which will produce Christlike purity, health, and joy in our lives. This means that our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty. While recognizing cultural differences, our dress is to be simple, modest, and neat, befitting those whose true beauty does not consist of outward adornment but in the imperishable ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit. It also means that because our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, we are to care for them intelligently. Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures. Since alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and the irresponsible use of drugs and narcotics are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them as well. Instead, we are to engage in whatever brings our thoughts and bodies into the discipline of Christ, who desires our wholesomeness, joy, and goodness. (Rom. 12:1, 2; 1 John 2:6; Eph. 5:1-21; Phil. 4:8; 2 Cor. 10:5; 6:14-7:1; 1 Peter 3:1-4; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 10:31; Lev. 11:1-47; 3 John 2.)

22. Marriage and the Family:
Marriage was divinely established in Eden and affirmed by Jesus to be a lifelong union between a man and a woman in loving companionship. For the Christian a marriage commitment is to God as well as to the spouse, and should be entered into only between partners who share a common faith. Mutual love, honor, respect, and responsibility are the fabric of this relationship, which is to reflect the love, sanctity, closeness, and permanence of the relationship between Christ and His church. Regarding divorce, Jesus taught that the person who divorces a spouse, except for fornication, and marries another, commits adultery. Although some family relationships may fall short of the ideal, marriage partners who fully commit themselves to each other in Christ may achieve loving unity through the guidance of the Spirit and the nurture of the church. God blesses the family and intends that its members shall assist each other toward complete maturity. Parents are to bring up their children to love and obey the Lord. By their example and their words they are to teach them that Christ is a loving disciplinarian, ever tender and caring, who wants them to become members of His body, the family of God. Increasing family closeness is one of the earmarks of the final gospel message. (Gen. 2:18-25; Matt. 19:3-9; John 2:1-11; 2 Cor. 6:14; Eph. 5:21-33; Matt. 5:31, 32; Mark 10:11, 12; Luke 16:18; 1 Cor. 7:10, 11; Ex. 20:12; Eph. 6:1-4; Deut. 6:5-9; Prov. 22:6; Mal. 4:5, 6.)

23. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:
There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

24. The Second Coming of Christ:
The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church, the grand climax of the gospel. The Saviour's coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ's coming is imminent. The time of that event has not been revealed, and we are therefore exhorted to be ready at all times. (Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:9-11; Matt. 24:14; Rev. 1:7; Matt. 24:43, 44; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:8; Rev. 14:14-20; 19:11-21; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 1 Thess. 5:1-6.)

25. Death and Resurrection:
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)

26. The Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

27. The New Earth:
On the new earth, in which righteousness dwells, God will provide an eternal home for the redeemed and a perfect environment for everlasting life, love, joy, and learning in His presence. For here God Himself will dwell with His people, and suffering and death will have passed away. The great controversy will be ended, and sin will be no more. All things, animate and inanimate, will declare that God is love; and He shall reign forever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:13; Isa. 35; 65:17-25; Matt. 5:5; Rev. 21:1-7; 22:1-5; 11:15.)



Copyright © 2003 General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
12501 Old Columbia Pike
Silver Spring, MD 20904-6600 USA.


Main Phone Number: (301) 680-6000

 

[evanman]

I have never met anyone who is able to keep the first commandment. If you cannot keep the first great commandment, what good will it do to you to "go to church on a Saturday"?

*******
You sure do have a way about you friend?? 2 Cor. 4:2. [See Gen. 4:7 as a question?]

I question your [post] because of what [it] says. Here is what the Word of God says: (If ones believes the Word?)

"I CAN DO ALL THINGS THINGS THROUGH CHRIST WHICH STRENGTHENETH ME." Phil. 4:13

"And He said unto me, MY STRENGTH IS SUFFICIENT FOR THEE: FOR MY STRENGTH IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS."

And what is being said in [your post] comes straight from an unconverted carnal thought or worse?? Either way, it is openly defying the above Word of my Master!

If this is really your understanding?? Then you best find out what being perfect is *really all about? And re/study John 3:3 to see if you have a correct understanding of what being Born Again is all about? 2 Cor. 3:3.

---Elijah

"I CAN DO ALL THINGS THINGS THROUGH CHRIST WHICH STRENGTHENETH ME." Phil. 4:13

This is not about keeping the commandments, it is about being able to suffer for Christ!

Php 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Yet again you missquote Paul. This has nothing to do with Keeping the Law, it is about suffering for Christ!

I f every thought you have is not for God--you are not loving God with all your mind.

If absolutely every action you take is not for God--you are not loving God with all your strength.

I have yet to meet anyone who can honestly say they always keep this..

By saying what I did concerning "going to church on a Saturday" is not to justify sin, is the Law sin? By the Law we understand what sin is. How else are we to know that we are sinners if we have no commandments?

And as James so succinctly put it--You break one of the Commandments--you break them all!

 

[guibox]

I don't think this is the thread to discuss the law. Perhaps another thread might be in order.

I am opening this thread up in all honesty for folks to ask some questions concerning SDAs and find out from the source whether we are a 'cult' or not and find out the truth about what we believe rather than taking every crackpot interpretation of what we believe by others who have no clue.

Anyone?

 

[Elijah message]

Elijah message wrote:
evanman wrote:
I have never met anyone who is able to keep the first commandment. If you cannot keep the first great commandment, what good will it do to you to "go to church on a Saturday"?


*******
You sure do have a way about you friend?? 2 Cor. 4:2. [See Gen. 4:7 as a question?]


*******
Elijah here:

I question your [post] because of what [it] says. Here is what the Word of God says: (If ones believes the Word?)

"I CAN DO ALL THINGS THINGS THROUGH CHRIST WHICH STRENGTHENETH ME." Phil. 4:13

"And He said unto me, MY STRENGTH IS SUFFICIENT FOR THEE: FOR MY STRENGTH IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS."

And what is being said in [your post] comes straight from an unconverted carnal thought or worse?? Either way, it is openly defying the above Word of my Master!


*****
Elijah here in re/replying to my remarks:

Notice that the post is the point in question! (QUESTION MARKS) It contradicts the Master's WORDS!! FACTUAL! ---
I stand by the Masters Word's, all else comes from elsewhere!

Does one remember what Christ said to Peter?? It appears to me that Peter was the one that should have apologized to Christ. Does that mean that Peter was always wrong?? I hope not, or else [my] bo, bo corner would do no good. Yet, a Christian will admit to mistakes, or else the question marks will in time not be needed! Regardless if it be King David, Peter, Saul, others, or myself!This [post] of mine was not meant in anyway to judge the heart or motive, of anyone! But it was meant to defend the Words of truth in the Promised posted FACTS of Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9!

---Elijah

 

[Elijah message]

Hi, can I get into this??? You are discussing 7th day Adventism right? :fadein: I can be seen agreeing with some of the remarks being read from both sides, yet, I do not agree with either conclusion. So here is another post from another site that gives my 'third' thought (at least) for consideration, at least?? Pastor N.B.____________

Pastor N.B, if I understand you correctly, you believe currently God is calling out a people from all denominations of mainstream Christianity as well as from the unbelieving, and these ones who come out will form this one true denomination, and only they will be saved.

*******
P/N/B/ here:
Let me just add that all of these ones will gladly follow the Bible requirements of Everlasting Gospel order. Rom. 8:14. Christ will have no loose cannon's in heaven again with no Gospel order! That is where it all started in the first place! Otherwise the character would not be mature. Also 1 Peter 4:17 finds Adventism 'shaken' first. (judged) And in Christ's day it was the Denomination [as a whole] that were shaken out from the Truth in Christ. See 2 Thess. 2:1-3. And 'the man of sin'? Who replaces a desolate denomination? Again, Gen. 4:7 & Rev. 3:9.
---------

Their doctrine will be the same as that of 7th Day Adventism, and these people in this one true denomination will obey the commandments of God perfectly and have perfected character. Because of their perfected character and pure 7th Day Adventist doctrine, God will allow them and only them into eternal life.


******
P/N/B/ here:
I think that you see this correct? But for others sake let me say this, all saved will be saved only one way! Acts 4:12. And in total submission! Acts 5:32 .The righteousness of Christ is the only way to be saved. Rom. 8:1. The power is there, yet it requires a working covenant relationship! Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9. And yes, the only ones saved will be the ones who have been 'proven' safe to save. Na. 1:9 (but this has always been true! A person living in accordance to the light that they had been given)
--------


You appear to consider 7th Day Adventism to have departed from the Lord as Israel in the old testament did, so that though you believe their doctrine to be correct, they are not the called out, the remnant, the elect, whatever you wish to call them.

******
Me again:
There are numerous verses of prophecy to tell us this Truth. The Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 verses are the most simple to understand in documented 'inspiration' perhaps? And in Isa. 5 it tell's the exact history past & that which is again to be in the future. (even as to the reason of why, in verse 3) Then, along with the two/fold Eze. 9 slaughter of 70AD, & the Rev. 3's Naked/ness of Christ's righteousness ones, we see that these too, will be [spewed out] as sickening. What Born Again person who [loves Christ] could stay in any yoked membership as a Rev. 18:4 Partaker of openly documented known sin??

Let me clarify! Rev. 18:4 is speaking of Babylon. (and her harlot daughters. see Rev. 17:5) And the verse is not talking of Virgin Israel as Babylon! Yet, if you take note about known sin & being Partakers, the WARNING still is Truth! And notice what your take would be as seen in Israel of old, in the Matt. 10:15'th verse?
Christ states:
"Verily I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of [Sodom and Gomorrha] in the day of judgement, than for that city." (see verses 5-6 of this chapter for whom Christ was talking about!)

So, yes, surely Babylon was no worse that Sodom and Gomorrah!! But the most guilty are not either of these two! *See Luke 12:47-48.

--------
Am I understanding this right?
******

My conclusion:
When one thinks of the Midnight Cry in Matt. 25 & the Shaking of 2 Thess. 2, another good verse (of many) is seen in Micah 2:13.
The descriptive Word is that of 'The Breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it, and their King shall pass before them, and the Lord on the head of them." (check Zeph. 3:15!) Again, Matt. 23:38 & Matt. 25.

And yes, maybe we see an understanding of what is being said? Let me just add another verse seeing that you seem to be quick to understand a persons posting. In Amos 7:7-8 Amos sees a 'Plumbline' for Virgin Israel. Judgement! And in chapter 5:1-*2 ibid.. we see.. "Hear ye the Word which I take up against you, even a lamentation, O house of Israel. [THE VIRGIN OF ISRAEL IS FALLEN.]" Still yet, 1 Peter 4:17 finds this again in the repeat, but do not get the Midnight Cry of Matt. 25 confused with the LOUD CRY of Rev. 14:9. These that give this cry are the ones whom you describe. And this loud Cry is to the professed Christian World. It is 70 AD's counter part! 666.

(Pastor N.B. is Elijah on this site)