What does 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 mean?

[Gregg]

You're making the same argument the others did.

In part, yes.

If the seal is anything other than a seal then Paul usage of the word would mean nothing. His readers would understand that seal to mean what a seal was. Paul didn't say that this seal was any different than any other seal. That idea is being imposed on the text yet it's not being drawn from the Scriptures. Paul's use of the word seal is a metaphor for receiving the Holy Spirit.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers is unique to any other seal. It is unbreakable by an created thing.

The Holy Spirit indwelling a believer is the guarantee [or earnest] of God's promise, that as a member of Christ's body he will be resurrected at His Second Coming. That promise has no contingencies attached to it; rather it is evidence of a completed transaction - that faith was conceived in a man and that he has been born from above, born of God. If someone has been born from above the outcome is eternal life; for which God seals that transaction with a down-payment to be fully realized at a future event.

God's promise regarding these things is not yes and no, but rather 'Yes.' The outcome for anyone who has been born from above is eternal life; not yes or no, but 'Yes.' The very presence of God's Spirit indwelling a man is a guarantee of what will happen in the future, that eternal life has begun and will continue. None of these things are contingent upon man.

I've already given Scripture showing that the Spirit can be taken away. Regarding the confidence issue, no, it wouldn't, because the seal is given with conditions, if one wants to remain sealed they must abide in Christ in the covenant that they agreed to.

You have not given a single Scripture stating that His Spirit can be taken away from a believer [or driven away or that He will choose to leave]. You are teaching the very opposite of what Scripture says:

"in whom also you, hearing the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also believing you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory" (Eph 1:13-14 LITV).

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed to the day of redemption" (Eph 4:30 LITV).​

"But if the Spirit of the One having raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One having raised the Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies live through the indwelling of His Spirit in you" (Rom 8:11 LITV).

"And I will petition the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may remain with you forever," (Jn 14:16 LITV).

"For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God. Whenever Christ our life is revealed, then also you will be revealed with Him in glory" (Col 3:3-4 LITV).

"For as many promises as are of God, in Him they are yes, and in Him are Amen, for glory to God through us" (2Cor 1:20 LITV).


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[chessman]

If that seal could be broken by a man or by his action, then wouldn't that undermine confidence in God's ability to save us, and undermine the assurance of His salvation?

I would say yes it would tend to undermine our confidence and assurance which seems antithetical to the point of the message (constantly being un-sure of our future). Plus it would undermine God's glory through the believer(s). What's glorious about God loosing one or more of His possesions?

Plus, what about God's assurance and confidence (versus ours)? Was God not sure of the outcome when the Holy Spirit entered the believer? Or is God hedging His bets by sealing us with the HS?

Literally the seal is God (the Holy Spirit). Metaphorically it represents His possesion (God's possesion). Strong assurance of God's glory through us. Even during times of affliction.

Which was the reason He wrote these verses into this Letter. Oh, and gave us the Seal to help overcome afflictions.

I could envision a weaker god being fooled and defeated and deglorified by the lose of one (or more, or all) of His possesions. But the God that works all things according to His will.,,.??? Nah.

 

[Gregg]

I would say yes it would tend to undermine our confidence and assurance which seems antithetical to the point of the message (constantly being un-sure of our future). Plus it would undermine God's glory through the believer(s). What's glorious about God loosing one or more of His possesions?

Plus, what about God's assurance and confidence (versus ours)? Was God not sure of the outcome when the Holy Spirit entered the believer? Or is God hedging His bets by sealing us with the HS?

Literally the seal is God (the Holy Spirit). Metaphorically it represents His possesion (God's possesion). Strong assurance of God's glory through us. Even during times of affliction.

Which was the reason He wrote these verses into this Letter. Oh, and gave us the Seal to help overcome afflictions.

I could envision a weaker god being fooled and defeated and deglorified by the lose of one (or more, or all) of His possesions. But the God that works all things according to His will.,,.??? Nah.

chessman, I think many professing Christians actually do envision a weaker God; and so rely on their ability to sustain their salvation. What was once total reliance upon the love and grace of God becomes reliance upon their works and ability.

Eph 1:13-14, 2Cor 1:22, and 2Cor 5:5 clearly teach that the Spirit of God resides in believers, and that His residence is permanent . . . period. The Son of God is the Builder of His Father's house. He is not building both permanent and temporary residences; but rather many mansions in one house.

No conditions here after the new birth from above: "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (Jn 14:23 KJV)

No conditions here after being born again: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you" (Rom 8:9-11 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

In part, yes.

If they weren't valid then they aren't now.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers is unique to any other seal. It is unbreakable by an created thing.

The Holy Spirit indwelling a believer is the guarantee [or earnest] of God's promise, that as a member of Christ's body he will be resurrected at His Second Coming. That promise has no contingencies attached to it; rather it is evidence of a completed transaction - that faith was conceived in a man and that he has been born from above, born of God. If someone has been born from above the outcome is eternal life; for which God seals that transaction with a down-payment to be fully realized at a future event.

God's promise regarding these things is not yes and no, but rather 'Yes.' The outcome for anyone who has been born from above is eternal life; not yes or no, but 'Yes.' The very presence of God's Spirit indwelling a man is a guarantee of what will happen in the future, that eternal life has begun and will continue. None of these things are contingent upon man.

You've imposed all of this theology on the word seal. Instead of telling seal what it means, why not go to the Scriptures and let seal tell you what it means? No one has yet presented a single passage of Scripture stating in any form that the seal cannot be broken. All that's been presented are arguments based on God's faithfulness. That is a straw man argument, I've not suggested that God's faithfulness was ever in question, however, man's is. One only needs to look to Israel's history to see that.

It seems several people have posted the passage about God's promises, what are those promises?

However, if we allow for the use of the passage, I still don't see how it supports the claim you're making? Is there Scripture that promises eternal life to the one who used to believe? Has God promised eternal life to those who reject Him? Has He said, as long as you believed at one point in time, no matter what else happens you'll receive eternal life?



One the word guarantee, I think the translators do Christians a disservice by translating "arrhabon" as guarantee. Guarantee is a proper translation, however, the word guarantee in English carries meaning that the Greek word "arrhabon" doesn't. Too many read guarantee as something being certain to happen and that "IS NOT" what the Greek word "arrhabon" means, it means a down payment. The English word guarantee also carries the idea of a down payment which is why it can be translated that way. However, that is not the more frequent understanding of the word in English.

You have not given a single Scripture stating that His Spirit can be taken away from a believer [or driven away or that He will choose to leave]. You are teaching the very opposite of what Scripture says:

"in whom also you, hearing the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also believing you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory" (Eph 1:13-14 LITV).

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed to the day of redemption" (Eph 4:30 LITV).​

"But if the Spirit of the One having raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One having raised the Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies live through the indwelling of His Spirit in you" (Rom 8:11 LITV).

"And I will petition the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may remain with you forever," (Jn 14:16 LITV).

"For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God. Whenever Christ our life is revealed, then also you will be revealed with Him in glory" (Col 3:3-4 LITV).

"For as many promises as are of God, in Him they are yes, and in Him are Amen, for glory to God through us" (2Cor 1:20 LITV).​

Yes, I have, more than once. The Spirit was taken away from Saul.

However, if someone is teaching the exact opposite of what the Scriptures say, I'd suggest reconsidering your posts. I've said a seal can broken and i pointed to our everyday experience with seals as evidence. Then it was claimed that this is not a man's seal but God's seal. So, I went to the Scriptures and showed that God's seals get broken. Then it was claimed that this seal cannot be broken because it is the Holy Spirit, I went to Scripture that showed that the Holy Spirit can be taken from someone. What I've stated I showed in Scripture. On the other hand, you're claiming the seal cannot be broken yet have not given any Scripture stating that.​

 

[FreeGrace]

You've imposed all of this theology on the word seal. Instead of telling seal what it means, why not go to the Scriptures and let seal tell you what it means?

Sure. The "seal" IS the Holy Spirit, and that IS theology.

No one has yet presented a single passage of Scripture stating in any form that the seal cannot be broken.

Not true. Jesus, when promising the indwelling Holy Spirit for all who believe after He ascended to heaven, said that He would be with us forever. hint: that's a very long time. So, unless there is any verse in the NT that very plainly tells us that any believer can have the Holy Spirit removed, then the fact is that He cannot. Esp when Jesus promised that He would be with us forever.

It seems several people have posted the passage about God's promises, what are those promises?

For starters, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5. Very clear promises. Along with Eph 1:13 and 4:30.

However, if we allow for the use of the passage, I still don't see how it supports the claim you're making? Is there Scripture that promises eternal life to the one who used to believe? Has God promised eternal life to those who reject Him?

I think you're missing the point. Eternal life is given WHEN one believes. And there are NO verses that indicate that God removes eternal life from anyone. Also, since eternal life IS eternal, if it is removed, then it surely wasn't eternal in the first place.

Has He said, as long as you believed at one point in time, no matter what else happens you'll receive eternal life?

In fact, Paul made that very clear; Rom 8:38 - For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

What does "things present" refer to? And what does "things to come" refer to? Clearly, whatever happens presently, or in the future. And we see that Jesus noted those who "believe for a while and in time of testing, fall away" in Luke 8:13. That would clearly indicate something "future". So even the future is covered. And NOTHING in the future can separate us (those who have believed) from the love of God or Christ.

Yes, I have, more than once. The Spirit was taken away from Saul.

Please cite your verse. I absolutely reject that idea. So please provide your evidence for such a statement. If that were true, then Jesus lied in John 14:16. I also absolutely reject that idea.
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[Malachi]

A seal was literally the result of the impact of a hard engraved surface upon a softer material such as clay or wax. It was used by monarchs to guarantee authenticity, ownership, and security. It is used metaphorically of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

God has "sealed" believers with the Holy Spirit in that He has given each Christian the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. But according to Scripture, that is only an "earnest" or "downpayment" of our complete redemption -- which means the perfection of bodies, souls and spirits.

While our souls are eternally secure in Christ, we have not been perfected. The "old man" (the sinful nature inherited from Adam) remains in the believer. But when Christ comes for His saints at the Rapture, we shall be "like Him" for we shall see Him as He is. The "old man" will be purged (purified) and we shall be glorified.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that when He shall appear, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM: for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that hath this hope in him, purifieth himself, EVEN AS HE IS PURE" (1 John 3:2,3).