What does 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 mean?

[Butch5]

pardon the off topic comment, but:

At least two Scriptures identify man as having a spirit that is his own created spirit, not the Holy Spirit; each verse differentiating our spirit, soul, and body [flesh, brain].

"And may the God of peace Himself fully sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Th 5:23 LITV).

"For the word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow [body of flesh], and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart;" (Heb 4:12 LITV).

Hi Gregg,

To say your spirit doesn't necessarily mean you are a spirit. If someone says to me can I borrow your truck, they aren't implying that I am a truck, but rather that I have a truck. I've already stated that man has a spirit in him, it is the breath/spirit of God, however, that breath/spirit is not the man. Moses recorded the creation of man and said that God formed the man from the dust of the ground.

The word soul is used in the Scriptures in two senses. Literally, it is a body with the breath of life, figuratively, it's used of life. A person is a body and spirit (God's) , together form a soul. So, all three aspects refer to the person. I believe the passage from 1 Thess is denoting the whole being. Regarding Hebrews, yes Christ is able t separate the spirit from the soul. In Job it's recorded, 'if God retrieved his spirit and His breath all flesh would die' That would be dividing soul and spirit. I don't really see anything in this passage that indicates that man is a spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

You pitted Scripture against Scripture.

If I did, why didn't you explain how I did? Just making a claim carries no weight. Please explain your charge.

But the spirit isn't man. Gen 2:7 God created man out of the dust of the earth. It's crystal clear and in black and white.

I think it's clear to most people that Gen 2:7 includes BOTH parts of man; the material and the immaterial. Why you only focus on dust is puzzling.

I think if you looked at Gen 2:7 you'd know the answer to that question. Man doesn't have a soul, he is a soul.

Actually, man HAS a body and HAS a soul. Seems you'd rather argue semantics here rather than substantive material.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

Right. Material body from dust and immaterial soul from God. Very simple and clear.

Man HAS a body AND a soul. He has both. In fact, it takes both to have a living person.

 

[Gregg]

A person is a body and spirit (God's) , together form a soul. So, all three aspects refer to the person. I believe the passage from 1 Thess is denoting the whole being.

A Christian has God's Spirit dwelling in them; and his own spirit. The part of man that is his spirit is not (God's) spirit, as it is part of his created being.

Nowhere does Scripture say that a man's body and spirit together form a soul. The three are distinguished from one another.

I'm curious if you think that a man's spirit (Christian or not) is part of God, that He put part of Himself in every man?

 

[Butch5]

A Christian has God's Spirit dwelling in them; and his own spirit. The part of man that is his spirit is not (God's) spirit, as it is part of his created being.

Nowhere does Scripture say that a man's body and spirit together form a soul. The three are distinguished from one another.

I'm curious if you think that a man's spirit (Christian or not) is part of God, that He put part of Himself in every man?

Hi Greg,

There is nothing in Scripture that teaches that man is a spirit. Gen 2:7 tells us how God created man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

Moses recorded the creation of man and said that God formed man from the dust of the earth. Whatever man is, he is from the elements of the ground. God then breath His Neshamah, breath/spirit into the man and the man became something, he became a living soul. This passage shows clearly that a soul consist the man (dust of the ground) and the breath/spirit from God.

To answer your second question, is man's spirit a part of God, I'd say it's reversed, God's spirit is part of a living soul. Yes, God's spirit is in every man whether he is a Christian or not. We can see that from the book of Job.

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

 

[Gregg]

Yes, God's spirit is in every man whether he is a Christian or not.

That doctrine differs greatly from Scripture, but thank you for a candid answer.

 

[Butch5]

That doctrine differs greatly from Scripture, but thank you for a candid answer.

Actually, It's what Scripture teaches. I gave the Scripture from Job,

14 If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust. (Job 34:14-15 NKJ)

8 But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding. (Job 32:8 NKJ)

27 The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the inner depths of his heart1. (Pro 20:27 NKJ)

19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.
21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth1? (Ecc 3:19-21 NKJ)

NKJ Zechariah 12:1 The burden1 of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: (Zec 12:1 NKJ)


Read Ezekiel 37 it's a picture of the Resurrection. Take notice that after the flesh comes back on the bones they are still not alive then Ezekiel prophesies to the wind (breath/spirit). Look at what God said,

14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.'" (Eze 37:14 NKJ)

Notice whose Spirit it is that gives them life. It's not their spirit being put into them it's God's spirit that is put into them and they live. That's the same thing we see in Genesis 2:7 when God created man, He put His spirit into the man and the man became a living soul.


13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, (1Ti 6:13 NKJ)

How does God give life? The breath/spirit of life.

 

[Gregg]

NKJ Zechariah 12:1 The burden1 of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: (Zec 12:1 NKJ)

As that Scripture says, "the spirit of man." Does God form His own Spirit? No. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Read Ezekiel 37 it's a picture of the Resurrection. Take notice that after the flesh comes back on the bones they are still not alive then Ezekiel prophesies to the wind (breath/spirit). Look at what God said,

14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.'" (Eze 37:14 NKJ)

Perhaps Ezekiel 37:14 is talking about corporate Israel, rather than an individual man.

But if an individual man, then what does a man have before God puts His "Spirit in you"? He has his own spirit; along with his soul and his body.

Notice whose Spirit it is that gives them life. It's not their spirit being put into them it's God's spirit that is put into them and they live. That's the same thing we see in Genesis 2:7 when God created man, He put His spirit into the man and the man became a living soul.

13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, (1Ti 6:13 NKJ)

How does God give life? The breath/spirit of life.

You use the plural 'we see', but you should only say that you see.

Yes, God gives life. But Gen 2:7 does not say God put His Spirit into the man. But it does say, "and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." God created Adam's life. His Spirit may have indwelled Adam in addition to Adam having his own spirit.

- - -

2Cor 1:22 and 2Cor 5:5 clearly teach that God puts His Spirit in believers, and refers to that as sealing them.

 

[Butch5]

As that Scripture says, "the spirit of man." Does God form His own Spirit? No. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Yes, there is a spirit in man, but that spirit isn't man. Man is dust as the Scriptures say.

Perhaps Ezekiel 37:14 is talking about corporate Israel, rather than an individual man.

But if an individual man, then what does a man have before God puts His "Spirit in you"? He has his own spirit; along with his soul and his body.

That argument has to be made from outside of the Scripture. There is nothing in Scripture that says man is a spirit. The idea has to be imposed on every text presented.
Think about it, if man is a spirit why does God say he is dust? There's nothing that says man is spirit and Scripture that flatly states that man is dust and made from the ground. Seriously, if we can't accept the Scriptures that plainly state something how can anyone claim an inference is correct?

You use the plural 'we see', but you should only say that you see.

Yes, God gives life. But Gen 2:7 does not say God put His Spirit into the man. But it does say, "and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." God created Adam's life. His Spirit may have indwelled Adam in addition to Adam having his own spirit.

There's nothing there about Adam having his own spirit. God breathed his Neshamah, breath/spirit into man. Ecc 3 tells us that there is one spirit in both man and animal, just one.

- - -

2Cor 1:22 and 2Cor 5:5 clearly teach that God puts His Spirit in believers, and refers to that as sealing them.

Yes, God put His Spirit in believers but that Spirit is not the man. Again, there is nothing in Scripture that teaches man is a spirit, people just read that idea into the passages. It's a shame really because it keeps so many Christians from really understanding the Scriptures because it leads to erroneous conclusions in other areas.

 

[gr8grace3]

To answer your second question, is man's spirit a part of God, I'd say it's reversed, God's spirit is part of a living soul. Yes, God's spirit is in every man whether he is a Christian or not. We can see that from the book of Job.

Yes, God put His Spirit in believers but that Spirit is not the man. Again, there is nothing in Scripture that teaches man is a spirit, people just read that idea into the passages. It's a shame really because it keeps so many Christians from really understanding the Scriptures because it leads to erroneous conclusions in other areas.

The believer has 2 Spirits of God or does He take one back when we believe?

 

[Gregg]

There is nothing in Scripture that says man is a spirit.

In case you missed it on a previous post,

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Th 5:23 KJV).

and

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow [body of flesh], and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb 4:12 KJV).

The idea has to be imposed on every text presented.

That is if the text presented is in context or relevant.

Again, there is nothing in Scripture that teaches man is a spirit, people just read that idea into the passages. It's a shame really because it keeps so many Christians from really understanding the Scriptures because it leads to erroneous conclusions in other areas.

Not that man 'is' a spirit, but that man 'has' a spirit of his own. It is part of his being - body, soul, and spirit.

Pinch yourself; if you can feel it you have a body. If you can hear your own thoughts, reason to yourself, contemplate, make a moral judgment . . . then you have a soul. If you can discern God's presence or hear Him speak to you, then it is likely your spirit has been quickened or that God's Spirit resides there.

And I might reiterate, if God's Spirit dwells in you then you have been sealed with Him by God. 2Cor 1:22, 2Cor 5:5.

- - -

You may think that seal can be broken or removed. So show me a Scripture where that has happened to a verified Christian. Not where it might could happen, but an account of it having happened by the agency of a man.

 

[gr8grace3]

In case you missed it on a previous post,

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Th 5:23 KJV).

and

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow [body of flesh], and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb 4:12 KJV).


That is if the text presented is in context or relevant.



Not that man 'is' a spirit, but that man 'has' a spirit of his own. It is part of his being - body, soul, and spirit.

Pinch yourself; if you can feel it you have a body. If you can hear your own thoughts, reason to yourself, contemplate, make a moral judgment . . . then you have a soul. If you can discern God's presence or hear Him speak to you, then it is likely your spirit has been quickened or that God's Spirit resides there.

And I might reiterate, if God's Spirit dwells in you then you have been sealed with Him by God. 2Cor 1:22, 2Cor 5:5.

- - -

You may think that seal can be broken or removed. So show me a Scripture where that has happened to a verified Christian. Not where it might could happen, but an account of it having happened by the agency of a man.

 

[Butch5]

In case you missed it on a previous post,

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Th 5:23 KJV).

and

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow [body of flesh], and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb 4:12 KJV).

Neither of these say man is a spirit. Look at them. If I said, your truck, does that mean you are a truck or that you have a truck? Obviously it mean you have truck. Likewise if I say, your spirit, it means you have a spirit. I've already acknowledge that there is a spirit in man, it is God's breath/spirit of life.

That is if the text presented is in context or relevant.

Since it is stated nowhere in Scripture people don't get the idea from Scripture so it must be imposed on the Scriptures.

Not that man 'is' a spirit, but that man 'has' a spirit of his own. It is part of his being - body, soul, and spirit.

Pinch yourself; if you can feel it you have a body. If you can hear your own thoughts, reason to yourself, contemplate, make a moral judgment . . . then you have a soul. If you can discern God's presence or hear Him speak to you, then it is likely your spirit has been quickened or that God's Spirit resides there.

Again, there's nothing in Scripture that supports that idea. The only spirit in man is God's spirit unless there is an evil spirit in a person. Man doesn't have his own spirit, The Scripture don't teach that. You see passages like 1 Thess 5:23 and because you already believe man has his own spirit you understand them that way. However, if you go t to the Scriptures with a blank slate and look for somewhere that the Scriptures teach that man has his own spirit, you won't find it. That means that Bible doesn't teach it. People get if from other sources and when they see passage such as 1 Thess 5:23 they believe that's what the passage means. Seriously, do a study of Neshamah, Ruach, Pneuma, and see if you find anything at all that teaches that mean has a spirit that is his.

And I might reiterate, if God's Spirit dwells in you then you have been sealed with Him by God. 2Cor 1:22, 2Cor 5:5.

I'm not sure how this addresses the issue.

- - -

You may think that seal can be broken or removed. So show me a Scripture where that has happened to a verified Christian. Not where it might could happen, but an account of it having happened by the agency of a man.

I've already shown that seals can be broken and the Spirit being taken from a person. That pretty much covers the seal.

 

[Butch5]

The believer has 2 Spirits of God or does He take one back when we believe?

It appears from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit is different than the Breath/spirit of life.

 

[Butch5]

One of the big problems in this discussion is the translating of the words Neshamah and Ruach as spirit. The words literally mean breath and when translated and read that way the Scriptures can be seen in a different light. The problem with translating these words as spirit is that everyone comes to the Scriptures with a different idea of what spirit means. When people read spirit in the Bible the import their understanding of the word spirit into the Bible rather than studying the Bible to see how it defines the word spirit

 

[jeff77]

One of the big problems in this discussion is the translating of the words Neshamah and Ruach as spirit. The words literally mean breath and when translated and read that way the Scriptures can be seen in a different light. The problem with translating these words as spirit is that everyone comes to the Scriptures with a different idea of what spirit means. When people read spirit in the Bible the import their understanding of the word spirit into the Bible rather than studying the Bible to see how it defines the word spirit

Butch, if I remember correctly from another thread...did you say that the breath of life that God breathed into Adam's nostrils (Neshamah) is simply the air we breath, that animates the body/keeps us alive? I can't imagine that man doesn't have something of his own other than the flesh body that defines who he/she is. Like our conscience.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, there is a spirit in man, but that spirit isn't man. Man is dust as the Scriptures say.

Man is both. Spirit and dust. Material and immaterial. The "spirit in man", which you acknowledge, IS man, just as the body IS man. Both ARE man.

What is a body without a spirit? James said it was dead. James 2:26. A dead man has no spirit. It has left him, and rendered the body dead and NOT the man. Just a body. The spirit that left IS the man, just without the body.

That argument has to be made from outside of the Scripture. There is nothing in Scripture that says man is a spirit.

Yes, the very text that you keep quoting. The phrase "spirit in man" proves that, which, for some unknown reason, is being ignored by you.

Think about it, if man is a spirit why does God say he is dust?

Gen 2:7 shows that man is both. Material (dust) and soul/spirit (immaterial). It takes both to have a human being. Remove the soul/spirit and the body is NOT the man. Just a dead body.

There's nothing that says man is spirit and Scripture that flatly states that man is dust and made from the ground.

It seems quite odd that one would keep ignoring the immaterial part of man. Why is that?

There's nothing there about Adam having his own spirit.

Adam "had" a body in the SAME way that Adam "had" a soul/spirit.

God breathed his Neshamah, breath/spirit into man. Ecc 3 tells us that there is one spirit in both man and animal, just one.

So, are you saying that there is no difference between man and animal???!!!

Yes, God put His Spirit in believers but that Spirit is not the man.

Now you're just confusing things more when you capitalize Spirit. When capitalized, the word refers specifically to the Third Person of the Trinity, who indwells only believers. Gal 3:2,5.

When the word isn't capitalized, it refers to the immaterial part of man.

Again, there is nothing in Scripture that teaches man is a spirit

Man has both a body and a soul/spirit. A body without the spirit isn't the man.

 

[FreeGrace]

I've already shown that seals can be broken and the Spirit being taken from a person. That pretty much covers the seal.

Not from the NT, you haven't. And Scripture quotes Jesus as promising that the Holy Spirit would be with us forever. So much for the Spirit being taken from any NT believer.

You've not defended your position, which has been refuted by Scripture.

 

[Butch5]

Butch, if I remember correctly from another thread...did you say that the breath of life that God breathed into Adam's nostrils (Neshamah) is simply the air we breath, that animates the body/keeps us alive? I can't imagine that man doesn't have something of his own other than the flesh body that defines who he/she is. Like our conscience.

Hi Jeff,

I said the Neshamah is from God and it animates the man. I don't believe it's just air. The analogy that I think explains this pretty well is that of a computer. You can build a computer and assemble all of the parts but it just sits there and does nothing. However, when you apply electricity to it it comes to life and you can do all kinds of things with it. But, if you take away the electricity it returns to an inanimate state. So, it's the electricity that animates the computer, however, the electricity is not a part of the computer. The computer is a computer whether it has electricity or not. This is how the creation of man is explained, Gen 2:7 says that God created the man from the dust of the ground, that's stated plainly. So, whatever man is, he is of the elements of the ground. Gen 2:7 says that God breathed into his nostrils the Neshamah of life and the man became a living soul. I think what can be clearly understood from this passage is that a living soul consists of a man and God's Neshamah.

 

[Gregg]

I've already shown that seals can be broken and the Spirit being taken from a person. That pretty much covers the seal.

I agree that some seals can be broken - a coke bottle cap, the lock on an electrical panel, a wax seal on a letter, etc. But the seal of the Holy Spirit was not made by hands, or by the agency of man; and more so that seal was not intended to be opened by a man, but by God alone.

Even if the seal of the Holy Spirit could be broken - where is that seal, and where would you start? What are its adhesives, or binders, or properties that a man may be familiar with? Where are the instructions to open it? Do you have the means or tool or hand to open it? A greater question: Did God provide a way for that seal to be broken by man, and if so doesn't that make His earnest (2Cor 1:22, 5:5) a sham or a lie?

If that seal could be broken by a man or by his action, then wouldn't that undermine confidence in God's ability to save us, and undermine the assurance of His salvation?

- - -

The truth of the matter is that the seal of the Holy Spirit spoken of in 2Cor 1:22 and 2Cor 5:5 is unreachable, untouchable, and impenetrable by any man. It is a seal ordained by God the Father, for the Lamb of God, with the Holy Spirit of God.

The doctrine that a believer can lose his salvation, or that the seal of His Holy Spirit can be nullified [or broken] is an attack upon God's testimony, character, and sovereignty. It is an attempt to interject the agency of man into the salvation of God.

 

[Butch5]

I agree that some seals can be broken - a coke bottle cap, the lock on an electrical panel, a wax seal on a letter, etc. But the seal of the Holy Spirit was not made by hands, or by the agency of man; and more so that seal was not intended to be opened by a man, but by God alone.

Even if the seal of the Holy Spirit could be broken - where is that seal, and where would you start? What are its adhesives, or binders, or properties that a man may be familiar with? Where are the instructions to open it? Do you have the means or tool or hand to open it? A greater question: Did God provide a way for that seal to be broken by man, and if so doesn't that make His earnest (2Cor 1:22, 5:5) a sham or a lie?

If that seal could be broken by a man or by his action, then wouldn't that undermine confidence in God's ability to save us, and undermine the assurance of His salvation?

- - -

The truth of the matter is that the seal of the Holy Spirit spoken of in 2Cor 1:22 and 2Cor 5:5 is unreachable, untouchable, and impenetrable by any man. It is a seal ordained by God the Father, for the Lamb of God, with the Holy Spirit of God.

The doctrine that a believer can lose his salvation, or that the seal of His Holy Spirit can be nullified [or broken] is an attack upon God's testimony, character, and sovereignty. It is an attempt to interject the agency of man into the salvation of God.

You're making the same argument the others did. If the seal is anything other than a seal then Paul usage of the word would mean nothing. His readers would understand that seal to mean what a seal was. Paul didn't say that this seal was any different than any other seal. That idea is being imposed on the text yet it's not being drawn from the Scriptures. Paul's use of the word seal is a metaphor for receiving the Holy Spirit. I've already given Scripture showing that the Spirit can be taken away.

Regarding the confidence issue, no, it wouldn't, because the seal is given with conditions, if one wants to remain sealed they must abide in Christ in the covenant that they agreed to.