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What does 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 mean?

ok :)

i did not know if the capitalizing the word was important to your explanation ..

I will leave this for those who have a better understanding of the how you are saying what you say...
Help me out Reba. How am I confusing you in the way I write these things. I do not want to be confusing to anyone on this forum. I would appreciate your help in being less confusing.

2 Cor 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

It is a seal that CANNOT be broken. It is a down payment from God Himself and He does not take His down payment back. Can you even imagine God dangling the down payment of the Spirit in front of us and teasing us with it?

If anyone says other wise or uses certain scriptures to change this dogmatic truth of sealing, If they come up with anything that changes this dogmatic statement of fact, they are teaching false doctrine. The Greek language proves it and settles it. But even the simplicity of the English and the way we read it proves it. We are sealed and we have the down payment.
 
gr8grace3
partly my reply was a silly way of saying i dont get it... the truth is i would have to look up a a lot of that ...

i just looked culminative aorist and am just as confused...You stated you have very basic Greek that is 100 % more then i have..
Being willing to show my ignorance i would hope would not come back to me in subtil rudeness..

The Passive voice of "sealed" is God doing the sealing of the believer and God alone. << this i have to study think about etc. Why is passive capitalized?

God Seals us........a seal that CANNOT be broken by mere man.<<< this i totally understand…
One more thing. If God could or would or has broken this forever seal, why are there no verses that warn of this? Wouldn't it make sense for God to warn of this possibility, if it really were a possibility?
 
2 Cor 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

I agree man can not break God's seal... the question to me is not breaking God's seal but exactly who is the 'us'

the line 'well he was never really saved ' Have most of us here ever been tried as these guys were
2Co 1:8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
2Co 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:

Times past 30- 40 years ago i thought christians needed to be saved about every other day.. No longer do i believe such
 
This is not complicated.

We are sealed until the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit. If you have the Holy Spirit, there is your seal. We don't want to complicate what seal means. You have the Spirit of God, then bam, your sealed.

We are bought and paid for with a price our body, soul and spirit are not our own. God paid a dear price for us, but not just the saved, for everyone. We have to keep this in mind.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
(1Jn 2:2-3)

The price was paid for mankind. Bought and paid for, but some don't know him, some do not accept the price paid.

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
(2Co 5:18-19)

The whole world is not getting trespasses imputed to them. Not accepting Jesus though, means they have to go before God with no advocate and that is not good. God paid for all his creation through the work of Jesus. Some connect by faith through that grace, others do not.

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
(Rom 4:13)

Those that connect through faith, get their receipt of being sealed by the Holy Spirit. Others, are paid for, but do not get what freely belongs to them. (Unbelief)

If I am saved (Born again with eternal life with God) can I become unsaved?

I won't cover blaspheme of the Holy Spirit, believes commit that all the time and not punished. However, it took your belief in the Lord to get saved, so It would take an equal action to be unsaved. This is not a wake up and find yourself unsaved one morning by a night of drinking and doing dumb things.

You accepted to be bought and paid for, but just like a slave, God won't force you to stick with him. Your free to turn away at anytime if you have full knowledge of what your turning away from.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Heb 6:4-6)

This person made a choice to follow something else once they have full knowledge of what they were doing.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(Heb 10:26-29)

One sin, and what sin? someone that knew the truth, but counted the blood covenant that sanctified an unholy and unworthy thing. In other words, they no longer wanted to be saved still and went after another god, or just plain did not want Jesus.

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
(1Jn 5:16)

Once again, there is ONE sin unto death. Same one Hebrews talked about and John warns about.

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
(1Jn 5:21)

willing to want to leave God, counting the blood covenant unworthy.
 
2 Cor 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

I agree man can not break God's seal... the question to me is not breaking God's seal but exactly who is the 'us'
The verse was written to believers. In fact, Paul defines who the "us" are in ch 1 and 2 of Eph in 1:19.

Times past 30- 40 years ago i thought christians needed to be saved about every other day.. No longer do i believe such
That didn't say much about the efficacy of the work of Christ, huh. Such thinking manifests itself by hustling about as though one saves oneself. Sad. Glad to know you no longer believe that. :)
 
Once again, there is ONE sin unto death. Same one Hebrews talked about and John warns about.

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
(1Jn 5:21)

willing to want to leave God, counting the blood covenant unworthy.
Christ died for all sin. Including the one you note. Plus, your view puts you in the driver's seat regarding your own salvation. But, who is in the driver's seat? Jesus Christ, per Heb 12:2. He is the author and finisher of our salvation.

He saves us, and He keeps us. When He promised that "no one" could snatch us from the Father's hand, that "no one" means what it says, no person. If you are a person, and I know that you are, He was even including yourself as to who cannot snatch you from the Father's hand.

What do we call a believer who "wants out"? A rebellious child. But just as the parent-child relationship cannot be undone, so the same for the spiritual relationship between God and His children. Those He gives new birth to stay His children.

There are no verses that indicate that one loses their relationship status with the Father.
 
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
exactly who is the 'us'
2Co 1:8 ...
2Co 1:9
My take is that it's true v8-9 is about Paul and Timothy's history. However, why does he even mention their suffering? Specifically to state that his readers share in that suffering.

2 Corinthians 1:7 And our hope for you is firm, because we know that as you are sharers in the sufferings, so also you will be sharers in the comfort.

My point is that according to Paul, the sufferings were shared by Paul's readers so that ... v15 comforts them (us).

What about the "sentence of death" Paul faced, was that unique to Paul implying the "seal" was only for him? No.

2 Corinthians 5:14 ...we have concluded this: that one died for all; as a result all died.

It doesn't seem to be the case that suffering a stoning (for example) is necessary for a sealing because Paul makes the case here and elsewhere that we all are under the sentence of physical death. Again, nothing that special about Paul or Timothy WRT their deaths.
 
Christ died for all sin. Including the one you note. Plus, your view puts you in the driver's seat regarding your own salvation. But, who is in the driver's seat? Jesus Christ, per Heb 12:2. He is the author and finisher of our salvation.

He saves us, and He keeps us. When He promised that "no one" could snatch us from the Father's hand, that "no one" means what it says, no person. If you are a person, and I know that you are, He was even including yourself as to who cannot snatch you from the Father's hand.

What do we call a believer who "wants out"? A rebellious child. But just as the parent-child relationship cannot be undone, so the same for the spiritual relationship between God and His children. Those He gives new birth to stay His children.

There are no verses that indicate that one loses their relationship status with the Father.

Right, nobody can take us out of the father's hands. Nobody can renew them back to repentance.

Nobody but that person can do a thing. Like the youngest son though, the father don't go back to get them either if they don't want to come back. There is a sin that brings death a sin that seperates us from the covenant. God is not keeping prisoners nor those with the truth who rejected what they had a place with the rest of us.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Tricky passage if we don't read it like it was heard. You don't cast out devils without the Holy Spirit.
Nobody rules with Jesus in heaven even though they used gifts that where free if they lived their own life doing their own thing. Does depart from me means they are not saved.? Does it mean they have no place to reign with him?

Paul said a man's work is tried by fire, and if those works are all burned up, then he has no reward, no place but he still gets saved as by fire. Jesus response was to those who would reign in heaven, depart from me, though you showed faith, did operate in the gifts, I don't know you and have no place for you,. You did your own works on earth and being unfaithful their you would be the same here. You missed out and do not qualify for true riches.

I don't read in there Jesus telling them they are lost when comparing other scriptures.
 
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
There is nothing here about losing their relationship with the Father. In fact, this crowd never had relationship. How do we know? The basis for their appeal to enter the kingdom was based on WORKS, not on faith. They were Pharisee-like in their view of salvation.

No one gets to enter the kingdom on the basis of works. Matt 7:21-23 is about religious people who never believed.
 
Right, nobody can take us out of the father's hands. Nobody can renew them back to repentance.

Nobody but that person can do a thing.
The problem is that "no one" refers to any person. Why would you conclude that it excludes yourself? There's nothing in the context to conclude that. Nor anywhere else.

Like the youngest son though, the father don't go back to get them either if they don't want to come back.
If this refers to the prodigal son, recall that he remained his father's son the entire time. The parable is about restoring fellowship, not restoring relationship.

One cannot "restore" a relationship that cannot be broken. Can you become the unchild of your parents? No. Can you become an unparent to your children? No.

There is a sin that brings death a sin that seperates us from the covenant. God is not keeping prisoners nor those with the truth who rejected what they had a place with the rest of us.
1 Tim 5:16 is about physical death, not spiritual. Every person is born "dead in their sins", per Eph 2:1. At the moment of faith, they are spiritually born again, become a child of God. That relationship is permanent. Which is why God chose the wording of Father and child.

A birth parent will ALWAYS be the birth parent. As well, the birth child will ALWAYS be the birth child. That cannot be undone. There is no reason in Scripture to assume that this Father-child relationship can be undone.

Tricky passage if we don't read it like it was heard. You don't cast out devils without the Holy Spirit.
Nobody rules with Jesus in heaven even though they used gifts that where free if they lived their own life doing their own thing. Does depart from me means they are not saved.? Does it mean they have no place to reign with him?
It means they were never saved. They were appealing to Jesus on the basis of works. Not His work on the cross for them.

Paul said a man's work is tried by fire, and if those works are all burned up, then he has no reward, no place but he still gets saved as by fire. Jesus response was to those who would reign in heaven, depart from me, though you showed faith, did operate in the gifts, I don't know you and have no place for you,.
I believe you are 'reading into Scripture' what isn't there. There is NO faith in Matt 7:21-23. Only a display of works, no different than that of the Pharisees. No one gets or stays saved by their works.

You did your own works on earth and being unfaithful their you would be the same here. You missed out and do not qualify for true riches.
If one understands properly that qualifying for "true riches" refers to eternal reward, and not entrance into heaven, you are correct.

I don't read in there Jesus telling them they are lost when comparing other scriptures.
I don't understand your point here.
 
To me both sides of this issue have their wiggle room..
 
The problem is that "no one" refers to any person. Why would you conclude that it excludes yourself? There's nothing in the context to conclude that. Nor anywhere else.


If this refers to the prodigal son, recall that he remained his father's son the entire time. The parable is about restoring fellowship, not restoring relationship.

One cannot "restore" a relationship that cannot be broken. Can you become the unchild of your parents? No. Can you become an unparent to your children? No.


1 Tim 5:16 is about physical death, not spiritual. Every person is born "dead in their sins", per Eph 2:1. At the moment of faith, they are spiritually born again, become a child of God. That relationship is permanent. Which is why God chose the wording of Father and child.

A birth parent will ALWAYS be the birth parent. As well, the birth child will ALWAYS be the birth child. That cannot be undone. There is no reason in Scripture to assume that this Father-child relationship can be undone.


It means they were never saved. They were appealing to Jesus on the basis of works. Not His work on the cross for them.


I believe you are 'reading into Scripture' what isn't there. There is NO faith in Matt 7:21-23. Only a display of works, no different than that of the Pharisees. No one gets or stays saved by their works.


If one understands properly that qualifying for "true riches" refers to eternal reward, and not entrance into heaven, you are correct.


I don't understand your point here.

What I am saying is you can't be lost by bad works anymore than good works save you. It takes faith to be saved with conscience choice and by choice to leave the free gift can be made.

To me both sides of this issue have their wiggle room..


Might be wiggle room because God never intended man to be dumb enough to leave Jesus once they had him and so he did not feel it needed covered that extensively. This conversation is carried by people that want to stay with Jesus. So it's biased.

Even so. Our advice to someone who left God would be to repent and get back to God, despite our belief if salvation could be lost or not. If they are still asking, there is still hope.
 
Might be wiggle room because God never intended man to be dumb enough to leave Jesus once they had him and so he did not feel it needed covered that extensively. :thumbsup love that line
 
What I am saying is you can't be lost by bad works anymore than good works save you. It takes faith to be saved with conscience choice and by choice to leave the free gift can be made.
Except the free gift isn't an object that can be "lost", "returned", etc. When man believes in Christ, God changes that person, through regeneration, being born again, becoming a new creature, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, which Jesus promised would be with us forever, not "only" as long as we continue to believe. And one cannot "give back" life. Eternal life cannot be killed, annihilated, etc. Otherwise, the meaning of "eternal" is worthless.

Might be wiggle room because God never intended man to be dumb enough to leave Jesus once they had him and so he did not feel it needed covered that extensively. This conversation is carried by people that want to stay with Jesus. So it's biased.
Jesus was quite clear about those who "believed for a while" (Lk 8:13), but in time of testing, "fall away". So, yet, there are people that do fall away from the faith.

Even so. Our advice to someone who left God would be to repent and get back to God, despite our belief if salvation could be lost or not. If they are still asking, there is still hope.
It is impossible to send a child of God, who possesses God's life, which is eternal LIFE, to the second DEATH.

LIFE cannot exist in DEATH. That is impossible.
 
To me both sides of this issue have their wiggle room..
If loss of salvation and eternal security both have wiggle room. What is the other choice? Because truth has no wiggle room.

We find it in the verses Freegrace has used. It is a seal that cannot be broken. No wiggle room in that. Anything that says the seal can be broken is directly contradicting this straight forward truth.

So if loss of salvation has wiggle room

And eternal security has wiggle room

What is the other option and truth that has no wiggle room? Just to be clear, the truth has no wiggle room, and if both of these teachings have wiggle room, what is the truth then, what is our other option?
 
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