What does 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 mean?

[gr8grace3]

faith

And my one word would be........................Christ.

Faith does not save us, It is the object of our faith that saves us.......................Christ.

 

[reba]

faith in Him that He is all He has said He is...

 

[Deborah13]

Right, nobody can take us out of the father's hands. Nobody can renew them back to repentance.

Nobody but that person can do a thing. Like the youngest son though, the father don't go back to get them either if they don't want to come back. There is a sin that brings death a sin that seperates us from the covenant. God is not keeping prisoners nor those with the truth who rejected what they had a place with the rest of us.

Tricky passage if we don't read it like it was heard. You don't cast out devils without the Holy Spirit.

Maybe not but it would seem that this guy was......in Jesus' name.

Luk 9:49 And John answering said, `Master, we saw a certain one in thy name casting forth the demons, and we forbade him, because he doth not follow with us;'
Luk 9:50 and Jesus said unto him, `Forbid not, for he who is not against us, is for us.'

It appears that one just needed to have faith in the name of Jesus.

Nobody rules with Jesus in heaven even though they used gifts that where free if they lived their own life doing their own thing. Does depart from me means they are not saved.? Does it mean they have no place to reign with him?

Paul said a man's work is tried by fire, and if those works are all burned up, then he has no reward, no place but he still gets saved as by fire. Jesus response was to those who would reign in heaven, depart from me, though you showed faith, did operate in the gifts, I don't know you and have no place for you,. You did your own works on earth and being unfaithful their you would be the same here. You missed out and do not qualify for true riches.

I don't read in there Jesus telling them they are lost when comparing other scriptures.

 

[Brother Mike]

Maybe not but it would seem that this guy was......in Jesus' name.

Luk 9:49 And John answering said, `Master, we saw a certain one in thy name casting forth the demons, and we forbade him, because he doth not follow with us;'
Luk 9:50 and Jesus said unto him, `Forbid not, for he who is not against us, is for us.'

It appears that one just needed to have faith in the name of Jesus.

Well, Peter got that man up at Gate Beautiful with just faith in the name of Jesus. I know a guy who sat in all my bible studies in a homeless shelter for months learning about how good Jesus is, He just did not kick that drug habit. A couple years later at a party one of his friends OD'ed on Heroin and coke. He lay dead all night, they found him blue and on the couch the next morning. Called the ambulance and they put the guy in a bag and carted him to the ambulance.

Well, my guy who was high all night and I not seen him in a year went over to his friend and yelled, you must come back to life in the name of Jesus. Unzipped the bag and everything. Now this guy was DEAD, but He sat up shocking the paramedics and freaking everyone else out there.

Now I find it hard to believe my friend was right with God at the time, or even filled with the Holy Spirit much, but He did believe on the power of the name of Jesus. One thing he learned I guess.

So, It's possible that the name of Jesus spoken in faith will chase away devils without being filled with the Holy Spirit. It makes sense now that you mention it.

God also used a donkey to save a prophet. ummmm.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

Well, Peter got that man up at Gate Beautiful with just faith in the name of Jesus. I know a guy who sat in all my bible studies in a homeless shelter for months learning about how good Jesus is, He just did not kick that drug habit. A couple years later at a party one of his friends OD'ed on Heroin and coke. He lay dead all night, they found him blue and on the couch the next morning. Called the ambulance and they put the guy in a bag and carted him to the ambulance.

Well, my guy who was high all night and I not seen him in a year went over to his friend and yelled, you must come back to life in the name of Jesus. Unzipped the bag and everything. Now this guy was DEAD, but He sat up shocking the paramedics and freaking everyone else out there.

Now I find it hard to believe my friend was right with God at the time, or even filled with the Holy Spirit much, but He did believe on the power of the name of Jesus. One thing he learned I guess.

So, It's possible that the name of Jesus spoken in faith will chase away devils without being filled with the Holy Spirit. It makes sense now that you mention it.

God also used a donkey to save a prophet. ummmm.

Blessings.

I do believe these things happen.
Andrew Wommack's son was in a car accident during the night. They had him in the ER in a Colorado Springs hospital. They pronounced him dead. He was naked, sheet covering him, and toe tagged for the morgue when he sat up. Prayer and faith can do amazingly awesome works. Well, just look at your son, an amazing, awesome work.

 

[FreeGrace]

faith

One must define the object and purpose of "faith" before we know whether it's the truth or not. Every religion has "faith" of some sort. And none of them are truth.

And, the Bible contains many truths, faith in Christ for salvation being one of them. But the Bible is also very clear on the security of the one who has become a child of God through faith in Christ. No wriggle room there.

 

[FreeGrace]

faith in Him that He is all He has said He is...

One of the things that He said is that no one (not any one) can snatch a child of God from God's hand. Jn 10:28-29. No wriggle room there, either.

 

[Obadiah]

I do believe these things happen.
Andrew Wommack's son was in a car accident during the night. They had him in the ER in a Colorado Springs hospital. They pronounced him dead. He was naked, sheet covering him, and toe tagged for the morgue when he sat up. Prayer and faith can do amazingly awesome works. Well, just look at your son, an amazing, awesome work.

I think you mean he came back to life, but have to ask anyway... Is this what you are saying? That he was dead and when he sat up it was because he was alive again? I ask because there are times when a dead body will actually sit up without being alive again. There are medical reasons this happens, even though it's rare.

 

[Deborah13]

I think you mean he came back to life, but have to ask anyway... Is this what you are saying? That he was dead and when he sat up it was because he was alive again? I ask because there are times when a dead body will actually sit up without being alive again. There are medical reasons this happens, even though it's rare.

Yes, he was pronounced dead in the ER and then raised from the dead. He is alive today and now has a family.

 

[Brother Mike]

I do believe these things happen.
Andrew Wommack's son was in a car accident during the night. They had him in the ER in a Colorado Springs hospital. They pronounced him dead. He was naked, sheet covering him, and toe tagged for the morgue when he sat up. Prayer and faith can do amazingly awesome works. Well, just look at your son, an amazing, awesome work.

These things happen a lot. They don't get reported for some reason. My son's report said unexpected response to chemotherapy. It's on the report. What they did not mention is the whole day they spent testing, trying to figure out where the cancer went and making sure there was no mix up in my son's records with another kids.

A nurse caught my wife listening to Kenneth Copeland tape and told her to be encouraged because she said that in all the years she worked there that parents who listened to Copeland and that other guy Hagan, their kids seem to come out just fine. She was not a believer but that was her experience through the years and was trying to encourage. My wife at the time came out of a dead church and God not only able to help actually wanted to help was still new to her.

I wonder how much we are missing from God with our small un-childlike thinking. You tell a child presents will appear under a tree in the morning, they believe it, no questions asked.

I know for a fact had I been at that party I would have just looked at the body and thought that is what happens if you don't serve God. The devil kills and destroys. Nobody gets blessed and I was no help. It bugs me.

 

[Obadiah]

Yes, he was pronounced dead in the ER and then raised from the dead. He is alive today and now has a family.

Well, that's what I thought you meant. Just wanted to be sure. That's just truly amazing. What a testimony of God's power!

 

[Brother Mike]

Well, that's what I thought you meant. Just wanted to be sure. That's just truly amazing. What a testimony of God's power!

The son overdosed on drugs. And was pronounced dead. They took the body to the morgue section of the hospital. They called Andrew who preaches faith and is well known and told him about his son. He sent the other son the and gave instructions to not write a death certificate until they arrived.

Just like Jesus said they are just asleep, not dead. Faith calls those things that be not as though they were.

They arrived, went to the morgue and prayed. The son came back to life.

Reading another forum from actual staff that were there, they said everyone still taks about it today at work.

 

[Deborah13]

I think you mean he came back to life, but have to ask anyway... Is this what you are saying? That he was dead and when he sat up it was because he was alive again? I ask because there are times when a dead body will actually sit up without being alive again. There are medical reasons this happens, even though it's rare.

I went and looked at Andrew's site and his testimony is not there that I could find. There are many recorded personal testimonies of others. This one is right along the lines of what we are talking about both in a raising from the dead and demonic influence. The Krow family testimony.
http://www.awmi.net/extra/healing/krow

 

[reba]

year about 1928 not everyone had a phone yet 911 was just numbers... ... mom had awoke grandma to take her potty... every body gets settled back down... After a bit grandpa notices grandma is not moving ,breathing, showing any signs of life.. He did the old thing of checking for breath on a mirror ... ear to her chest.. he found nothing... no phone no one to call ... except Jesus .. He hit his knees and prayed .. after a while grandma showed signs of life...

No authority pronounced grandma dead... but the real Authority gave her back to us...

I cant remember all the story Grandma told of the flowers and the crystal river... Family said she was healthier for years after then she had ever been,,,

 

[FreeGrace]

Kinda getting off track from the OP. For those who don't believe in eternal security, please explain how the 2 verses don't teach that. Thanks.

 

[Butch5]

2 Cor 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. KJV

"sealed" - sphragizō
1) to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal
1a) for security: from Satan
1b) since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of aletter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
1c) in order to mark a person or a thing
1c1) to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
1c2) angels are said to be sealed by God
1d) in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
1d1) to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
1d1a) of a written document
1d1b) to prove one’s testimony to a person that he iswhat he professes to be

"earnest" - arrhabōn
1) an earnest
1a) money which in purchases is given as a pledge or down payment that the full amount will subsequently be paid

2 Cor 5:5
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. KJV

NIV: 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us,and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

5:5 - Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

NASB: 1:22 - who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
5:5 - Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

I've never found the KJV to be "reader-friendly" in this century. So I included 2 other translations.

So, what does this "seal" or "pledge" refer to? It is clear that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who believe, as a pledge, or seal. I've given the lexicon meanings of both "seal" and "earnest (pledge).

I believe these verses are directly related to Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30:

1:13-14
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. NASB

4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. NASB

Keep in mind Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. NASB

As well, recall Rom 11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

This thread is about the meaning of 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, in light of these other verses. This is not a debate about whether OSAS is true or false. It IS about how to understand 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 in light of the other verses given.

So, for those who reject OSAS, please exegete 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5, as well as Eph 1:13, 4:30 and Rom 11:29.

If they are not related verses, please explain specifically why not.

The idea of a seal is still the same today, it lets one know is something has been tampered with. When we buy food it has a seal. If the seal is broken we don't buy it because it may have been tampered with. In NT times a seal was used on a document so assure it's authenticity. If the king sent a message to someone he would put a seal of wax on it with his signet pressed into it. When the person to whom it was written received it they would know it was authentic if the seal wasn't broken. If the seal was broken then it could be that the contents have been tampered with. This image of a seal is used of believers to ascertain their authenticity when the redemption comes. The Holy Spirit is the seal and also a down payment on what God has promised the believer, eternal life in the kingdom.

 

[Butch5]

Kinda getting off track from the OP. For those who don't believe in eternal security, please explain how the 2 verses don't teach that. Thanks.

I would ask how do they teach it unless one believes a seal cannot be broken. The purpose of a seal is not make something inaccessible, it's to validate the contents. A seal is expected to be broken, the issue is who breaks the seal. When you buy milk it is sealed, the manufacturer didn't put the seal on there so that the milk could never be opened. The seal was put there to make sure no one tampered with the milk until the buyer purchased it, after which time the buy breaks the seal. Likewise, God has sealed is people until the day of redemption, at that time He will look to see if the seal is intact or if it has been broken.

 

[FreeGrace]

I would ask how do they teach it unless one believes a seal cannot be broken. The purpose of a seal is not make something inaccessible, it's to validate the contents. A seal is expected to be broken, the issue is who breaks the seal.

The verses in the OP are clear; believers are sealed for the day of redemption. Since that is true, are there any verses that specifically indicate that the seal of the Holy Spirit can or has been broken? If there are none, then it is only an assumption to think the seal can be broken. My challenge was to those who believe that salvation can be lost. If that were true, then there should be a verse or two that say that the seal can be broken.

When you buy milk it is sealed, the manufacturer didn't put the seal on there so that the milk could never be opened. The seal was put there to make sure no one tampered with the milk until the buyer purchased it, after which time the buy breaks the seal. Likewise, God has sealed is people until the day of redemption, at that time He will look to see if the seal is intact or if it has been broken.

Comparison of the seal of the Holy Spirit to human seals isn't relevant, imho. Your point about human seals is correct, but cannot be assigned to God's seal. Scripture is clear as to the purpose of God's seal on believers; for the day of redemption.

I believe this is a clear message of eternal security of those who have believed.

Those who don't believe in eternal security have the burden to prove that the seal of the Holy Spirit can be broken. So far, none has provided any evidence for that.

 

[Butch5]

The verses in the OP are clear; believers are sealed for the day of redemption. Since that is true, are there any verses that specifically indicate that the seal of the Holy Spirit can or has been broken? If there are none, then it is only an assumption to think the seal can be broken. My challenge was to those who believe that salvation can be lost. If that were true, then there should be a verse or two that say that the seal can be broken.


Comparison of the seal of the Holy Spirit to human seals isn't relevant, imho. Your point about human seals is correct, but cannot be assigned to God's seal. Scripture is clear as to the purpose of God's seal on believers; for the day of redemption.

I believe this is a clear message of eternal security of those who have believed.

Those who don't believe in eternal security have the burden to prove that the seal of the Holy Spirit can be broken. So far, none has provided any evidence for that.

Turn it around, the burden of proof that the seal cannot be broken is on you. The Scriptures use human language to convey what God wants to communicate. Therefore the seal means what it means in human language. There is nothing in the definition of seal that indicates it cannot be broken. As I've pointed out it's expected to be broken. When a king put his seal on a document it wasn't with the expectation that it could never be opened. A seal is put on something so that the one receiving it can validate that the contents are genuine. You're suggestion that a seal cannot be broken is foreign to the common understanding of the term therefore the burden of proof lies with you as you've assumed a definition the is not what the word means.

 

[chessman]

The Scriptures use human language to convey what God wants to communicate. Therefore the seal means what it means in human language.

the critical point of Paul's message is one comfort and confidence which comes, not from a human king's seal, but God's seal and guarantee:

Now the one who establishes us together with you in Christ and who anoints us is God, who also sealed us and gave the down payment of the Spirit in our hearts.
​

Is a human seal comforting in times of affliction? No, not really.
Is God's seal comforting, even in times of affliction? Yes!

2 Corinthians 1:4-7, 10, 21-22 (LEB) ... The God of all comfort who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in all affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.
​

Is it a human seal guaranteeing our future (full payment)t? No.
Is God's seal comforting and guarantee us, even in times of affliction? Yes!

For just as the sufferings of Christ overflow to us, thus through Christ our comfort overflows also.
​

Is it through our sufferings we are guaranteed salvation? No. Is it through Christ's sufferings? Yes.

But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort that is at work in the patient endurance of the same sufferings that we also suffer.
​

Are we hoping for salvation based on a human's seal or guarantee? No. Or we shouldn't be.

And our hope for you is firm, because we know that as you are sharers in the sufferings, so also you will be sharers in the comfort. who delivered us from so great a risk of death, and will deliver us, in whom we have put our hope that he will also deliver us again,
​

Will God deliver salvation in the future to those that have placed their hope in Christ in the past? Yes.

How do we know this?

Now the one who establishes us together with you in Christ and who anoints us is God, who also sealed us and gave the down payment of the Spirit in our hearts. ​

God's not Santa Claus writing us a sealed letter. He's the God of the future, even in times of affliction. He even uses afflictions for His purposes. One purpose of which is to bring salvation to those He chooses through Christ (The Chosen One). We are sharers in Christ sealed by God (not man).