Bible Study What does it mean for the law to get nailed to the cross? (Col. 2:13-14/ Eph. 2:11-16)

[Pizza]

This bickering is getting wearisome.
jocor, is Jesus divine? (That's all that matters, IMO).

If you say 'yes', we'll know exactly where you're at concerning that. If you say 'no', we'll drop the subject and move on. JLB, another thread should be opened to discuss the issue, IMO.

YHWH, Yeshua, Jesus, Lord - sure area lot of characters in this thread that I don't find in the New Testament.
Jesus is Lord, plain and simple. But NOTHING is simple to a pharisee .

 

[reba]

Part of the Godhead. Let's just let jocor answer and then you two can hash it out in another thread, okay?

I haven't had a lot of time or energy to contribute to my own threads lately and I don't want to see them get closed before I participate in them.

Totally agree Jethro... i will close this for just a short while to clean it up... then reopen...we so often what to play got'cha it clouds our good sense...

 

[reba]

Thread reopened...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Thanks, Reebs.

jocor, a mistake I was making in these law discussions was not being careful to distinguish between 'abolishing' and 'destroying' the law of Moses. There is a big difference. Destroying speaks of casting down the law and trampling it underfoot, as in violating it. Abolishing, or laying aside the law speaks of fulfilling and satisfying the law so that no violation of law has been committed....it's simply not needed now, or is inapplicable to someone. Which I think is what Paul is getting at when he said this:

"realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers" (1 Timothy 1:9 NASB)

Generally speaking, the law governs unbelievers. It dictates how close or far away you must be because of your sin and uncleanness. But in Christ we are forgiven and relieved of that sin and uncleanness and brought near to God already, so any law dictating our required distance from God because of our sin and who we were by nature becomes irrelevant. It's like saying you can't go behind the curtain between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies because the law says you can't go there, but you're already there in Christ. The law of the veil for us being abolished--that is, laid aside, obsolete, unneeded now. But certainly not destroyed! That requirement remains binding on the unbelieving. No unbeliever will ever go behind the veil. Never. The point is, it didn't get violated--as in destroyed--by the believing. It simply does not apply to them since God, in his power and wisdom, brought us to that place through Christ and the transformation of the Spirit. That law no longer has any authority over us to keep us out of the presence of God's manifest glory. And because that's true, no man-made law concerning the veil has any power or authority over us either (if there are any). Talk to the hand, Rabbi so-and so!

 

[reba]

What does it mean for the law to get nailed to the cross? (Col. 2:13-14/ Eph. 2:11-16)
The law being resurrected into Grace ?

 

[Sinthesis]

Grace redeems the law. Because we can't perfectly follow the law, it has no purpose absent Grace except condemnation.

Rom 5:18 - Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men tocondemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
​

In Grace the law can be observed as a token of rememberance, provided one isn't deceived into thinking their incomplete observance merits payment.

 

[reba]

Sinthesis please say again in grammar school english instead of college

 

[jocor]

It's both because not only is the debt of the law symbolically nailed to the cross marked 'paid in full'. But the law itself specifying the punishment due the offender gets nailed to the cross, too. So, in that sense the law itself becomes obsolete and unneeded now (that is, 'abolished'--not destroyed. Don't confuse the two.). Example:

"20“He who sacrifices to any god, other than to the LORD alone, shall be utterly destroyed." (Exodus 22:20 NASB)

In Christ, this law is abolished--that is, it has no application or relevance to the person who believes in Christ. And so in that sense, not only is the debt of punishment due for our violations of this law nailed to the cross with Jesus, but the law itself gets 'put to death', so to speak, in that it is no longer against us.

I disagree. It is not “abolished”. It is simply not broken. As long as the believer remains in Messiah, Ex 22:20 does not apply to him because he is not breaking it. If the believer renounces Yeshua and turns to a God other than Yeshua’s Father YHWH, he will be utterly destroyed. This law remains for the transgressor of it.

 

[jocor]

Thanks, Reebs.

jocor, a mistake I was making in these law discussions was not being careful to distinguish between 'abolishing' and 'destroying' the law of Moses. There is a big difference. Destroying speaks of casting down the law and trampling it underfoot, as in violating it. Abolishing, or laying aside the law speaks of fulfilling and satisfying the law so that no violation of law has been committed....it's simply not needed now, or is inapplicable to someone. Which I think is what Paul is getting at when he said this:

"realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers" (1 Timothy 1:9 NASB)

Generally speaking, the law governs unbelievers. It dictates how close or far away you must be because of your sin and uncleanness. But in Christ we are forgiven and relieved of that sin and uncleanness and brought near to God already, so any law dictating our required distance from God because of our sin and who were by nature becomes irrelevant. It's like saying you can't go behind the curtain between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies because the law says you can't go there, but you're already there in Christ. The law of the veil for us being abolished--that is, laid aside, obsolete, unneeded now. But certainly not destroyed! That requirement remains binding on the unbelieving. No unbeliever will ever go behind the veil. Never. The point is, it didn't get violated--as in destroyed--by the believing. It simply does not apply to them since God, in his power and wisdom, brought us to that place through Christ and the transformation of the Spirit. That law no longer has any authority over us to keep us out of the presence of God's manifest glory. And because that's true, no man-made law concerning the veil has any power or authority over us either (if there are any). Talk to the hand, Rabbi so-and so!

The law governs believers as well. That is why Paul said the law is established by faith (Rom 3:31). When a believer breaks the law, it is sin (1 John 3:4). That sin can be forgiven through confession and repentance. If we love God, we will show it by keeping His commandments/laws (1 John 5:3). If we love Yeshua, we will show it by keeping his commandments/laws (John 14:15).

No believer could pass behind the veil of the literal temple in Yeshua's day without being put to death. We have access into the heavenly Holy of Holies by faith, not the earthly.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we love God, we will show it by keeping His commandments/laws (1 John 5:3). If we love Yeshua, we will show it by keeping his commandments/laws (John 14:15).

But the point is, we 'keep' many of the commandments/laws, in that we don't violate them, even though we don't do what those commandments/laws say for one to literally do. To say that someone has not satisfied certain requirements of the law because they haven't literally kept them is not scriptural. In Christ, many of those laws/commandments are now irrelevant and unneeded now, and are, therefore, unviolated by the believer such that no outstanding debt of that law is against them. They appear 'kept' in God's eyes.

That is what Paul is driving at when he speaks of the law that was against us being nailed to the cross and taken out of the way and no longer being able to keep us out of fellowship and covenant with God and his people. They didn't get destroyed by the coming of Christ (he did not come to do that). What happened is we died to them when we died on the cross with Jesus. We didn't violate them and illegally and unlawfully bust our way into fellowship with God. What happened is they stopped being against us because when we died with Christ on the cross we ceased to be the guilty, unclean, sinful people for whom those laws were written. Those laws govern leaky, guilty, unclean creatures unfit for fellowship with God, not for the blameless, justified, clean creatures we have become in Christ who are already in covenant fellowship with God and his people.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I disagree. It is not “abolished”.

Seriously, I'm confident that you're confusing 'abolished' with 'destroyed' as if they mean the same thing. 'Abolish' does not mean to destroy a law as we would tend to understand the use of the word 'abolish'. Look at the word 'destroy' as Jesus speaks about not destroying the law in Matthew 5:17, and look at the word 'abolish' as Paul uses the word to speak about the law being abolished in Ephesians 2:15.

abolished: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2673&t=KJV
destroy: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2647&t=KJV

Now I know these are how the words are used in the Bible and not necessarily their definitions, but the point is, none of the ways 'abolished' gets used in the Bible suggests it means 'destroying' the law, only making it of no effect on and against the one who has believed in Christ.

I'm saying all this so you can see it's okay to acknowledge that the Bible does in fact say the law of Moses has been abolished because the abolishing of the law is not the destroying of the law. So there's no reason to try to make 'abolish' mean only the Rabbinical law got abolished, as if abolish means to destroy. The law of Moses was indeed abolished in that it has no affect on those in Christ to keep them out of covenant fellowship with God and his community of people. The law of Moses was not destroyed when it got abolished. Rather in Christ it finds it's fulfilling, it's satisfying, it's upholding, it's 'keeping'. In fact, that's why it can be abolished (I didn't say destroyed). Because there's nothing in us anymore that is contrary to the laws that keep various people out of the kingdom that those laws are needed for us now. As new creations in Christ no violation of law concerning the old creations we no longer are occurs.

 

[reba]

Thanks

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God is so awesome, so powerful, so wise. He devised a way for fallen, sinful, unclean man to not be excluded from the people of God by joining us to Christ via the Holy Spirit making us new creations for whom the law prohibiting fellowship with God has nothing against. Praise his Holy name, forever and ever and ever.

"...Christ crucified...the power of God and the wisdom of God." (1 Corinthians 1:23-24 NASB)

.

 

[jocor]

But the point is, we 'keep' many of the commandments/laws, in that we don't violate them, even though we don't do what those commandments/laws say for one to literally do. To say that someone has not satisfied certain requirements of the law because they haven't literally kept them is not scriptural. In Christ, many of those laws/commandments are now irrelevant and unneeded now, and are, therefore, unviolated by the believer such that no outstanding debt of that law is against them. They appear 'kept' in God's eyes.

Your example of this in Ex 22:20 is unacceptable. A Christian can most certainly break that law if they turn away from the faith to worship other gods. Please provide another example of how a Christian can break a law without violating the law.

That is what Paul is driving at when he speaks of the law that was against us being nailed to the cross and taken out of the way and no longer being able to keep us out of fellowship and covenant with God and his people. They didn't get destroyed by the coming of Christ (he did not come to do that). What happened is we died to them when we died on the cross with Jesus. We didn't violate them and illegally and unlawfully bust our way into fellowship with God. What happened is they stopped being against us because when we died with Christ on the cross we ceased to be the guilty, unclean, sinful people for whom those laws were written. Those laws govern leaky, guilty, unclean creatures unfit for fellowship with God, not for the blameless, justified, clean creatures we have become in Christ who are already in covenant fellowship with God and his people.

As unbelievers we violated the laws. When we died with Yeshua, the death penalty/condemnation was paid/satisfied. The law was not nailed to the cross. The sin debt was. You are trying to teach the law was nailed to the cross without proving the cheirographon tois dogmasin refers to the Law of Moses rather than to only the sin debt. I fully understand that breaking the law does not separate us from a covenant fellowship with YHWH. It (sin, breaking the law) does, however, make us unclean, filthy, defiled until the sin is confessed and forgiven. That is why 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins we will be cleansed from our unrighteousness. That is why Yeshua said, "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man" (Mark 7:21-23) or why bitterness can defile the believer (Heb 12:15).

 

[jocor]

Seriously, I'm confident that you're confusing 'abolished' with 'destroyed' as if they mean the same thing. 'Abolish' does not mean to destroy a law as we would tend to understand the use of the word 'abolish'. Look at the word 'destroy' as Jesus speaks about not destroying the law in Matthew 5:17, and look at the word 'abolish' as Paul uses the word to speak about the law being abolished in Ephesians 2:15.

abolished: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2673&t=KJV
destroy: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2647&t=KJV

Now I know these are how the words are used in the Bible and not necessarily their definitions, but the point is, none of the ways 'abolished' gets used in the Bible suggests it means 'destroying' the law, only making it of no effect on and against the one who has believed in Christ.

I understand the definition of "abolished" that you are trying to employ. It is irrelevant because the law is neither destroyed or abolished. It is firmly established through faith (Rom 3:31). One can say the condemnation of the law is abolished, but not the law itself. A Christian can still commit adultery. The law tells us that person is sinning. Confession brings about a cleansing and restores a right relationship with YHWH. No condemnation or death penalty. You are assuming the law of Eph 2:15 is the Law of Moses. It is not.

I'm saying all this so you can see it's okay to acknowledge that the Bible does in fact say the law of Moses has been abolished because the abolishing of the law is not the destroying of the law. So there's no reason to try to make 'abolish' mean only the Rabbinical law got abolished, as if abolish means to destroy. The law of Moses was indeed abolished in that it has no affect on those in Christ to keep them out of covenant fellowship with God and his community of people. The law of Moses was not destroyed when it got abolished. Rather in Christ it finds it's fulfilling, it's satisfying, it's upholding, it's 'keeping'. In fact, that's why it can be abolished (I didn't say destroyed). Because there's nothing in us anymore that is contrary to the laws that keep various people out of the kingdom that those laws are needed for us now. As new creations in Christ no violation of law concerning the old creations we no longer are occurs.

I am not saying the Rabbinical law was abolished or destroyed. I am saying the enmity/hatred/hostility it caused was abolished.
The removal of the condemnation of the law does not remove the law itself.

"As new creations in Christ" we can indeed violate the law. The man who had his father's wife in 1 Cor 5:1 violated the law. A "sin unto death" is a violation of the law. Lusting in one's heart for someone is a violation of the law. Hating your brother violates the law. Stealing, coveting, Sabbath breaking, idolatry, lying, sorcery, witchcraft, fornication, adultery, etc., are all violations of the law. Committing such sins will not keep us out of the Kingdom or out of covenant fellowship with YHWH unless we refuse to confess and repent of them so that we can be cleansed and forgiven.

 

[JLB]

The law was not nailed to the cross.The sin debt was

14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Ephesians 2:14


24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you; 27 for I know your rebellion and your stiff neck.If today, while I am yet alive with you, you have been rebellious against the Lord, then how much more after my death? Deuteronomy 31:24-27

...having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us,...

Paul uses the language from the law, when he wrote to the Colossians, teaching them that everything written in the book of the law of Moses, had been nailed to the cross, and taken out of the way.

Please show us from the law, whereby there was something else that was against the children of Israel.


JLB

 

[jocor]

The only change in the law referred to here was the command requiring a son of Aaron to be high priest. That law was changed long ago by Yahweh's oath.

Let's just see...

11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. Hebrews 7:11-13

Sorry, the whole entire Levitical Priesthood has been removed, under which the law was administered, and replaced with a priesthood after the order of Melchizedek, with Jesus as High Priest.

Jesus was not from the tribe of Levi.

No Levitical priesthood = No law of Moses.


Now we are under the law of Christ, with Him as Mediator of the New Covenant.

So when He as High Priest, and Mediator of the New Covenant, says... because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?”, then it's not a sin to eat pork or shrimp.

The law was nailed to the cross.


JLB

My reply to this post was erroneously removed. Here it is again with minor changes.

Here is a prophecy concerning the Levites that will be fulfilled in our future.

Jer 33:17 For thus saith the LORD (YHWH); David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Jer 33:18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
Jer 33:19 And the word of the LORD (YHWH) came unto Jeremiah, saying,
Jer 33:20 Thus saith the LORD (YHWH); If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
Jer 33:21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
Jer 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

IOW, the Levites will continue to minister before YHWH as long as day and night exist. That would be at least through the entire millennium. Only the High Priest (Yeshua) will be a non-Levite which is why only the law concerning what tribe the High Priest could come from was changed.

 

[JLB]

My reply to this post was erroneously removed. Here it is again with minor changes.

Here is a prophecy concerning the Levites that will be fulfilled in our future.

Jer 33:17 For thus saith the LORD (YHWH); David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Jer 33:18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
Jer 33:19 And the word of the LORD (YHWH) came unto Jeremiah, saying,
Jer 33:20 Thus saith the LORD (YHWH); If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
Jer 33:21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
Jer 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

IOW, the Levites will continue to minister before YHWH as long as day and night exist. That would be at least through the entire millennium. Only the High Priest (Yeshua) will be a non-Levite which is why only the law concerning what tribe the High Priest could come from was changed.

12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. Hebrews 7:12-13

The Levitical Priesthood has changed, now it is the High Priest after the Order of Melchizedek, who lives forever, that is our High Priest.


In the Future, after the Lord returns, He will save Jerusalem, and be the King over the whole earth.

Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You...

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.
Zechariah 14:5, 16-17


Jesus is the King, the Lord of Host's.



JLB

 

[JLB]

off topic


Please show me from the law, whereby there was something other than the law of Moses, that was against the children of Israel.

It's very simple.

Moses Himself proclaimed that this book of the law, was a witness against them.

Paul using the very language of Moses, from the law, teaches us the law that was against us, has been nailed to the cross.

Look what Moses said -

Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you; Deuteronomy 31:26

I believe it is reasonable to ask, that you supply me with a scripture or explanation as to why Paul, quoting Moses, and using the language Moses uses, to show us the law was nailed to the cross.

The law was "handwritten" by Moses. This is the meaning of the "handwriting that was against us".

Moses declared that the laws was a witness against them. That is the meaning of the phrase "against us" in Paul's letter to the Colossians.

...having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14

Paul says the handwriting of requirements, was an "IT".

He has taken "it" out of the way...

"It" is a reference to the "book" of the law of Moses, not a a series of individual "man-made laws, made by sevaeral Rabbinical priest's over the years [which is called Judaism] as you say, but a single "book" of the law of Moses.

So Moses wrote this law and delivered it to the priests, the sons of Levi, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel. Deuteronomy 31:9

The law was handwritten by Moses.


So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you; Deuteronomy 31:24-26


The book is referred to as "it', by Paul.

This book of the law, was declared to be a witness against the children of Israel, by Moses himself.

Paul uses this specific language to teach us that the handwriting of requirements that was against us, was nailed to the cross and taken out of the way.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Sinthesis please say again in grammar school english instead of college

I thought I was speaking Jason.

In terms of salvation, the law is week and beggarly. Keeping the law doesn't save, but not keeping the law earns condemnation. The law is incomplete without the finished work of Christ. Through Grace Jesus can fulfill the promises our pathetic attempts at keeping the law can't merit.

So what does it say about the law when Christ Himself 'hangs it on a tree'?

Gal 3:13 - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Deu 21:22 ¶ And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deu 21:23 - His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.​