What does it mean to perish (apóllymi)?

[FreeGrace]

John 10:28 is a "part" of a complete statement.

The word "And" is the dead giveaway, in verse 28.

You quoted the result of meeting the condition which is found in verse 27.

Eternal life is the end result of living a life of faithful obedience to the Lord who dwells within us.

Why not accept what Jesus said in John 3:15,6, 5:24 and 6:47? In all of these verses, Jesus said that those who believe PRESENTLY HAVE eternal life.

Not at the end of a life of obedience. Eternal life is the PRESENT POSSESSION of one who believes.

And on the basis of that, they shall never perish.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, which proves that sons of God can become lost.

If a person dies that became lost, is he still saved from perishing in the fires of hell?


JLB

Let's just examine what Jesus actually said about this.

In John 3:15, 16, 5:24 and 6:47, He said that those who believe HAVE (as in present possession) eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 He said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. This answers the question.

 

[FreeGrace]

Amen.
Who even thinks of hell?
We can feel safe in our Savior's hands.

It's much more than just a feeling of security. We HAVE eternal security, because of what Jesus promised those He gives eternal life in John 10:28. They shall never perish.

 

[JLB]

Let's just examine what Jesus actually said about this.

In John 3:15, 16, 5:24 and 6:47, He said that those who believe HAVE (as in present possession) eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 He said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. This answers the question.

What do those scripture references say about eternal life, since you only your theory and didn't bother to discuss the actual language of the scripture.

Jesus gave us the condition as well as result for eternal life.

Those who meet those conditions will receive eternal life.

• Eternal life is the end result of living a life of faithful obedience to the Lord who dwells within us.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Then when we back up a little further we see that believe is the condition, that actually manifest's as a result of hearing, then the following or being led, is the result of believing.

26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:26-28


The first condition we see to being considered as one of His sheep is believe.

• Condition # 1 - Believe

Those who do not believe are not His sheep.

Those who believe for a while, then do not believe, are those who do not believe.
Believe = Sheep
Do not believe = are not His sheep
Believe means commit, trust obey.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36 NASB
Those who believe on the Lord, and confess Him as Lord, but don't obey Him as Lord, are not His sheep.

• But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49

Our Master is the one we obey:

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

• Condition #2 - Hear His voice

My sheep hear My voice.

Jesus said His sheep are those who hear His voice.

Hear means to learn by hearing, understand, to give attention to a teacher or teaching to comprehend; Hearken

Hearken in Hebrew thought means to listen with the intent of obeying.

• But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; Leviticus 26:14 KJV
• But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, Leviticus 26:14 NKJV

We find this to be a essential condition for eternal life, as this same John says:

• if we keep His commandments. Obey Him; Do what He says, Believe Him and hearken to what He says.

The essential and biblical definition of eternal life is to knowing Him.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

Which brings us to condition # 3

• Condition # 3 - Know Him - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.

Relationship; Joined in covenant relationship;

In Hebrew thought this word is used of a union between a man and his wife.

Mary said it this way -

• Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” Luke 1:34

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

The condition or test of knowing Him is: if we obey Him

• Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
• He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

• in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God
• and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Key essential elements of eternal life: Knowing Him and Obeying Him.

• Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Condition # 4 - Follow

Follow means to join as a disciple the one you are following.

Following is the evidence you believe.


This principle is made clear in John 6, where some disciples left from following Him because they didn't want do what He said, because the didn't understand what He said, and therefore no longer believed in Him


61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:61-69


Key verse's:

• But there are some of you who do not believe.
• From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
  
• Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
  
• You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Following is the evidence of believing.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life.


The next point to be discussed is can a sheep become lost?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Let's just examine what Jesus actually said about this.

In John 3:15, 16, 5:24 and 6:47, He said that those who believe HAVE (as in present possession) eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 He said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. This answers the question.

Please let's do examine what Jesus actually said, since what He said about eternal life in no where to be found in your post.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

My sheep hear My voice.

Jesus said His sheep are those who hear His voice.

Hear means to learn by hearing, understand, to give attention to a teacher or teaching to comprehend; Hearken

Hearken in Hebrew thought means to listen with the intent of obeying.

• But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; Leviticus 26:14 KJV
• But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, Leviticus 26:14 NKJV

We find this to be a essential condition for eternal life, as this same John says:

• if we keep His commandments. Obey Him; Do what He says, Believe Him and hearken to what He says.

Sheep that hearken to His voice, are sheep who follow Him.

Sheep who hearken to His voice for a while, then disobey Him, are sheep who become lost.

• Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.

• Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.

• Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

• Lost Coin:

Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10

• Prodigal Son

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32



If a sheep can become lost, and they obviously can, then OSAS is completely unbiblical and can not be proven from studying the scriptures, it has only deceived people who read a part of a verse and build a doctrine around a part of a verse without studying the whole subject of eternal life.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus saves not doctrine?
Isn't it doctrine that is the launching point for those arguing if we don't follow doctrine we can lose our salvation?
God saves through his grace. Having faith in Jesus brings us into the grace God created for those whom he called to find.

While I agree with what you say, initially, we also must understand that believing and teaching false doctrine, can lead to loss of salvation.


Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16

• for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you

This verse is in the context of verse 1, which says -

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1

• some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons

Giving heed to false doctrine can indeed lead to departing from the faith.


Paul said it this way to the Galatians -


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

 

[chessman]

And, once again, you dodge the question.

That question is not a logically phrased question.

"A loaded question or complex question fallacy is a question that contains a controversial or unjustified assumption (e.g., a presumption of guilt). ... Only when some of these presuppositions are not necessarily agreed to by the person who is asked the question does the argument containing them become fallacious."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
​

Why won't you just answer the question?

Because it's a fallacious loaded question.

It's a "Yes or No" answer.

Wrong, it's a question loaded with assumptions I do not necessarily agree.

You are advocating the heretical JW/SDA teaching of the annihilation of the wicked dead.

You not only assume your own 'answers' within this complex question are true, you claim it to be the truth when it's not been proven.

Do you or do you not accept the JHW/SDA heretical teaching of the annihilation of the wicked dead?

1. This question assumes I know what the SDA/JW teach.

2. This questions assumes I accept what they teach.

3. This question assumes what they teach is heretical.

4, This question assumes the SDA and JW teach the same thing about the annihilation of the wicked dead.

That's a lot of assumptions loaded into one 'question'.

But at least it moves on from your previous posting of verses speaking about those who "lost", yet still alive and pre-Judgment which is not the subject of this thread.

If you'd like to remove these assumptions and pose a more logical question, I'd be glad to answer.

We can move past the logical one I already answered though:

Are you a Jehovah's Witness or a Seventh Day Adventist?

No.

Do the SDA/JW teach that God cannot destroy (utterly) the body and soul (the personhood) of the wicked dead in Hell? If so, I do not agree with their teaching then. Nor would Irenaeus or Ignatius (for a couple of early traditional Greek Bible commentators previously posted).

Do they teach that bodies and souls of the wicked post-judged and non-victorious in Chist dead are immortal in Hell? If so, I disagree on Biblical grounds. So does Irenaeus or Ignatius (who knew NT Greek better than any NT Greek PhD scholar alive today).

Or, more appropriate, you can answer the questions I asked you:

Are you familiar with the fallace of illegitimate totality transfer?

This is a logical yes/no question left unanswered by you.

Have I made any statement that you can show is incorrect?

Again, a logical yes/no question left unanswered by you.

This one you even back-quoted yet didn't answer:

Is it your position that sinful hedonistic atheists get to live eternally in Hell in the same condition (lost) that they live in now?

Please do not misrepresent what I have said. Misrepresentation is a form of a lie.
If you haven't heard, that's a big "no-no" for a believer. (Rev 21:8)

I have not misrepresented anything you've said. But speaking of the Second Death; do you think the Second Death bestowes life upon the wicked?

 

[GodsGrace]

Chessman,

I had asked you something a while back and never got an answer.
Or maybe I forgot to ask... anyway, could you tell me this:

IF annihilation is correct and the non-saved just disappear at some point...
What do you make of Luke 16:19-31?

The saved had died.
The unsaved had died.

They were together in a place, but the saved were safe in Abraham's Bossom
The unsaved were across a chasm and were asking for some water --- they were in hell.

Why weren't the unsaved annihilated??

(I do believe I've asked this before)

 

[GodsGrace]

It's much more than just a feeling of security. We HAVE eternal security, because of what Jesus promised those He gives eternal life in John 10:28. They shall never perish.

FreeGrace,
Sometimes I talk about feelings. Don't let that confuse you.
I NEVER go by feelings, I go by what I know to be true.

And as far as John 10:28, I couldn't agree more.
Jesus gives eternal life to His sheep.

Of course, one has to BE one of His sheep to get this eternal life Jesus speaks of.
It was certainly the Will of our Lord that all who came to Him would remain IN HIM.
But, alas, we do retain free will even after salvation so some do get lost, but happily knowing God is a beautiful experience and we tend to want to stay near Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

While I agree with what you say, initially, we also must understand that believing and teaching false doctrine, can lead to loss of salvation.


Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16

• for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you

This verse is in the context of verse 1, which says -

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1

• some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons

Giving heed to false doctrine can indeed lead to departing from the faith.


Paul said it this way to the Galatians -


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

The above made me think of
James 3:1

James, the Brother o Jesus, is telling us not to be in such a hurry to be a teacher because Teachers are held to a higher standard than Others. Also, the very fact that they teach incurs a very big responsibility on them.

To whom much is given, much will be required.
If we have knowledge, we will be held to a higher standard when passing that knowledge on to Others. We must be MORE perfect in that knowledge.

James 3:4-5
A small word out of the mouth may seem to have no consequence, but it could do both a lot of good, or it could be destructive.

 

[Angel Water]

While I agree with what you say, initially, we also must understand that believing and teaching false doctrine, can lead to loss of salvation.

No, we, the whole of Christians in community, must not understand and believe what you understand and believe.
That is your faith system. That is not what Jesus died to deliver as his eternal message.
The false teaching warning is apt in consideration of that.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, we, the whole of Christians in community, must not understand and believe what you understand and believe.
That is your faith system. That is not what Jesus died to deliver as his eternal message.
The false teaching warning is apt in consideration of that.

Just to understand you better:

Are you saying that Christians should not all believe the same?
You mean we could just all believe what we want to?

 

[Angel Water]

Uh...Trump is not your enemy and he doesn't hate you.

Last night there appeared to be a bug in the server here as it would deliver return messages when I tried to post in the Mayweather/McGregor thread that my post was too long. I think maybe this bug is extending further as your comments arrived to post in the wrong thread, and quoted the wrong member on top of that.
Gotta love computers. They keep us busy wondering what the heck they're thinking when they do the latest, are you kidding me?

 

[Angel Water]

Churches will have some doctrine that MUST BE BELIEVED.
Then they list doctrine that is not necessary for salvation.

IF doctrine saved and NOT Jesus, we'd be in much trouble since we all believe slightly different doctrine or totally different doctrine. We'd then have to have some super intelligen theologians who would have to figure out WHO IS RIGHT, and then we'd be forced to all FOLLOW THEIR TEACHING.

(Maybe this wouldn't be a bad idea !)

Then there's doctrine that in and of itself may not cause loss of salvation, but it can LEAD to loss. I'm thinking of Calvinism. One could believe God chooses who goes to hell and still be saved, but this doctrine could definitely lead to loss due to the eternal security idea. Too much to get into.

Then again, regarding Cavinism, it mght actually be blaspheming the Holy Spirit to attribute to God such AN UNGODLY CHARACHTER...I'd have to think about this a minute --- never did before.

Do you think believing in annihilism would lead to loss of salvation?

God doesn't want slaves. The journey of Moses tells us that. God was before Doctrine came to be.

P.S. I understand your signature line because you explained it, but, as you see, many will misunderstand it...

That's not my responsibility. It is theirs. Because that's how they think.

 

[GodsGrace]

God doesn't want slaves. The journey of Moses tells us that. God was before Doctrine came to be.

That's not my responsibility. It is theirs. Because that's how they think.

God was before the decalogue.
OK.
So why did He give us the Decalogue?
Couldn't we just have continued with only HIM?

 

[Angel Water]

God was before the decalogue.
OK.
So why did He give us the Decalogue?
Couldn't we just have continued with only HIM?

If you remember? In the new covenant testimony we're told God put his laws inside us so that they would never be set apart from our knowing them.

Do I have to be told so as to have it written in stone that I should not murder someone? Steal from someone?
For those who don't know these things, the Decalogue became necessary as a matter of right from wrong. Punishment for wrong being far more than what appeared to prosecute according to the Law of God in that time. Stoning, etc....

 

[GodsGrace]

If you remember? In the new covenant testimony we're told God put his laws inside us so that they would never be set apart from our knowing them.

Do I have to be told so as to have it written in stone that I should not murder someone? Steal from someone?
For those who don't know these things, the Decalogue became necessary as a matter of right from wrong. Punishment for wrong being far more than what appeared to prosecute according to the Law of God in that time. Stoning, etc....

God gave the decalogue to the Israelites because they'd been in slavery so long that they'd forgotten how to be civil and needed the 10 Commandments in order to have a civilized community.

In the N.C. the Laws are written in our heart and also Jesus left us with the Two Great Commandments which cover all the rest.

Also, in a way, everyone knows about the Two Great Commandments because of the Natural Law which, after all, is God's Law since it's absolute.

There is however, a certain need that we have as humans in order that our belief system can be kept in tact. Jesus meant for His teachings to be known throught the world, as He gave the Great Commission in Mathew 28:19.

For this churches had to be set up. I mean buildings.
It holds us together.
Doctrine holds us together.
For instance, all Christians must believe Jesus is God.
This is doctrine.

I'd just like to understand if you're OK with doctrine --- Not WHAT doctrine.
It sounds like you're not.

 

[Angel Water]

God gave the decalogue to the Israelites because they'd been in slavery so long that they'd forgotten how to be civil and needed the 10 Commandments in order to have a civilized community.

In the N.C. the Laws are written in our heart and also Jesus left us with the Two Great Commandments which cover all the rest.

Also, in a way, everyone knows about the Two Great Commandments because of the Natural Law which, after all, is God's Law since it's absolute.

I wouldn't agree that everyone knows about the two great commands. Not even among the universal body of our Lord is this demonstrated. Christian community discussion sites give proof of that often enough isn't it? As you made mention you know the reason for my signature would recall. Yes?

Matthew 22:37-40

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Recall these two have always been with us: Deuteronomy 6:5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. And, Leviticus 19:18 Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people,but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

Remember too that we were told in the Book of Jeremiah that God's law was written inside our hearts. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33

There is however, a certain need that we have as humans in order that our belief system can be kept in tact. Jesus meant for His teachings to be known throught the world, as He gave the Great Commission in Mathew 28:19.

For this churches had to be set up. I mean buildings.
It holds us together.
Doctrine holds us together.
For instance, all Christians must believe Jesus is God.
This is doctrine.

I'd just like to understand if you're OK with doctrine --- Not WHAT doctrine.
It sounds like you're not.

Doctrine holds us together?
How many denominations are there? How many versions of our God's words are there?
Did Jesus die to deliver doctrine to the world? If so, which one?
How many faithful believe in the Bible? While Christ gets lost in the words.
God inspired his word to be received by humankind. He delivered himself into the human flesh and blood as Son of man, and God himself, to bring his Holy Spirit truth in words given by His breath unto his Disciples so that they would breath truth to the world in their journey.
God isn't found on the page. God's laws are written inside us, where He told us dwells the Kingdom of Heaven.

Rather than follow, why not seek.

 

[Jim Parker]

Isn't it doctrine that is the launching point for those arguing if we don't follow doctrine we can lose our salvation?

Without doctrine, there is no basis by which to determine what is truth and what is error.
The most basic doctrines, divinity of Christ and Holy Spirit, resurrection of dead, etc, as found in the Nicaea-Constantinople Creed, were determined and accepted by the Church in response to false teachings. (Heresies)

"Doctrine" is the word used to identify the authentic teaching of Christ and the apostles who were personally taught by Christ.
"Doctrine" is the word used to identify the true faith.
Heresy, a departure from that faith, can result in effects ranging from minor confusion to eternal damnation.

The primary person who says that, if one does not follow doctrine he can be damned, is Christ.
John 3:36 (RSV) He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.
John 5:28-29 (NKJV) … the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 8:51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death
Jhn 17:17 (NKJV) Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

also:

Eph 1:13 (NKJV) In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise

1Th 2:13 (NKJV) For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

iakov the meshuganeh

 

[Jim Parker]

That question is not a logically phrased question.

Oh.
So you are not interested in engaging in an honest, forthright, conversation.
Suit yourself.
Bye.