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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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What does it mean to perish (apóllymi)?
- Thread starter chessman
- Start date
From my previous post -
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28
Hearing His voice and following Him is a prerequisite for eternal life.
Those sheep who follow Him for a while then turn away from following Him become lost.
A sheep who is lost, is as a sinner in need of repentance.
The end result of hearing [hearkening in obedience] and following Him is receiving eternal life at the resurrection.
35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36
- Can you point out where in John 10:28, Jesus said that those who follow Him, would immediately receive eternal life in which they would never die anymore.
JLB
I am sorry that I was not as clear as I meant to be. What I deem irrelevant is your opinions and claims. But I know that I did make that clear. It seems you'd just rather not face the facts. As you wish.
More irrelevancy. Everyone who follows these posts know EXACTLY which verses I refer to. Unless you're not capable of finding the verses I've cited, you're free to quote them yourself and then proceed to prove that the verses don't teach what I claim they teach.
There you go. That wasn't so hard now, was it? OK. Now proceed to explain how v.28a doesn't teach eternal security.
This is v.28a (I give them eternal life and they shall never perish). How is this NOT eternal security? That's what you need to explain.
Not the issue.
The scripture itself refuted that, because you never posted the condition Jesus stated for eternal life.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28
- Can you point out where in John 10:28, Jesus said that those who follow Him, would immediately receive eternal life in which they would never die anymore?
The end result of hearing [hearkening in obedience] and following Him is receiving eternal life at the resurrection.
35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36
We will receive eternal life, if we are counted worthy of attaining the resurrection of life.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29
- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
Doing good, is obeying and doing what our Lord says for us to do, which start with obeying His commandments.
- Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4
If we break one of His commandments, we are to confess our sin and be cleaned and forgiven.
Do you believe Christians should confess their sins, in order to be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness?
JLB
chessman
Member
You posted a partial sentence (why you repeatedly do this is still an unanswered question, one of many) from chapter 4 and a discussion about how deacons who serve well as deacons obtain a good standing and great boldness (not obtain salvation) from a previous chapter.
Here's another question for you to leave unanswered; in the verse above, do deacons obtain salvation by serving well?
Jim Parker
Member
What do you want from me?I understand. However, if it is for that purpose of self reflection and self-deprecation....Continues below your other remark quoted below.
....wouldn't that make your remarks to Chessman impossible ? Post #120 I believe. Even with your remarks quoted in this reply^
Find peace in ourselves and therein is our Lord whispering all the answers.
Angel Water
Member
I do agree.
That's one way of looking at it.
The other is as I intended. That which follows Christ and yet in certain matters affords the testimony of one who reads God as, "do as I say", but then does not do as is taught.
Yes. It was from whence He delivered the new ministry, the new testimony for the new age to come.
A beautiful passage to add to our talk here.
Thank you. Divisiveness is frustrating isn't it? When Jesus intended us to be one in Him.
In the beginning was The Word and The Word was with God, and The Word was God.
Emmanuel, God with us, as he was named by God in the beginning and preceeding his conception upon Merriam, rebelled against the doctrine of the Jews. And He was born to a Jewish family, taught among Jews, his disciples were Jews, the first "Christians" were Jews.
And yet, God with us, taught the good news that God was with us.
Jesus did not write a Bible. Man did. Councils decreed what fit the parameters ascribed to "holy writ" and "God's word". And then elected to call the matter closed. All this arrived after creed was created in a pagan state, overseen by a pagan Caesar. Under Roman authority, wherein long years before our Lord was judged, and murdered for being that man deemed worthy of death for the charge of blasphemy, by the same authority vested in that day's emperor. To suffer torture, and die a death designed for the worst offenders.Nailed naked to a cross. And before passover so as not to violate Jewish law. While a creed later officiated by a new emperor in that same state presided over a body of Roman Bishops who together decided who Jesus was. And what it meant to believe in him according to formula they conceived together so as to make a concise doctrine that became known as the Roman's Catholic teaching.
Jesus came to destroy doctrine and was contained within it by the same emperor authority that had him killed at behest of Jewish authorities who did not want the blood on their own hands, so that they would at least oversee extinguishing a blasphemer.
Is it any wonder humans need to be saved?
Egocentrism in the flesh writes a book calling it God's breath. And through that tome countless souls were sent home. Pyres, and wars, and hangings, and beheading's. All to insure those who stood witness should learn what it was to believe in the doctrine that said that was God's will that some of us die headless, hanged, and burned.
What if Jesus was Torah?
Agreed.
The kingdom of God that has always been within you.
If what you seek you do not find within, can you ever recognize it without?
Yes. Until you choose to let go and let God show you where he is. (hint: Everywhere!
Jesus said: "I am the light that is above them all. I am the all; the all came forth from me, and the all attained to me. Cleave a (piece of) wood; I am there. Raise up a stone, and you will find me there."We seek a savior when we know we need to be saved from what we think we are. Unworthy.
Would you agree that Jesus Is Wisdom?
Using the scriptures so as to teach to look beyond what is written, judged, approved, and distributed, is a lesson in itself.
Proverbs 8:17~18 "I love those who love me,and those who seek me find me."
John 14 :6-7 I Am (the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you have known me, you will know my Father too. And from now on you do know him and have seen him.”
May God's eternal peace whisper blessings into your life, banish fear from your thoughts, and open your heart to his good news that whispers inside you all the time.
This penchant for claiming untruths is amazing. I've given 4 verses that give the condition for possessing eternal life.
John 3:15,16 -
15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
So, when does one HAVE eternal life? WHEN they believe.
This is post 157 -
No scripture that makes mention of immediately receiving eternal life, in which a person will never die here in this post.
Here is who Jesus said will receive eternal life -
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29
- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
Doing good, is obeying and doing what our Lord says for us to do, which start with obeying His commandments.
- Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4
If we break one of His commandments, we are to confess our sin and be cleaned and forgiven.
Do you believe Christians should confess their sins, in order to be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness?
JLB
Angel Water
Member
What do you want for yourself brother?
Made in the image and likeness of God (with us). How do we follow Jesus when we act like the devil as we defend what we believe we know of the teachings of Jesus?
Be kind.
Jesus didn't call Satan names when they met in the desert. Why would we do that to one another in a Christian community?
Yes everyone who believes in Him, which means obeys Him, to the end will receive eternal life.
We receive eternal life at the resurrection of life.
- Can you still die?
Those who are worthy to attain the resurrection of life.
Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are no longer believers, and are disqualified from receiving eternal life.
The end result of hearing [hearkening in obedience] and following Him is receiving eternal life at the resurrection.
35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36
We will receive eternal life, if we are counted worthy of attaining the resurrection of life.
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29
- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
Doing good, is obeying and doing what our Lord says for us to do, which start with obeying His commandments.
- Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4
If we break one of His commandments, we are to confess our sin and be cleaned and forgiven.
Do you believe Christians should confess their sins, in order to be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness?
JLB
Angel Water
Member
Jim Parker
Member
He did not.
He repeatedly rebuked them for putting their traditions above the law and the prophets. (ie: doctrine)
And He rebuked them for being hypocrites and abusing their positions to oppress the people they were supposed to be teaching and leading in the ways of salvation.
They did not thereby violate any of the Sabbath commands.
Here they are:
EX 16:29 Bear in mind that the LORD has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out.
EX 20:8-10 Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.
EX 31:14-17 Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.
EX 35:1-3 Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, "These are the things the LORD has commanded you to do: For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day."
LEV 23:3 There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD.
DT 5:12-14 Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do.
It is not against the law of Moses to do good on the Sabbath.
It is not against the Law of Moses to heal on the Sabbath.
It is not against the law of Moses to do acts of mercy on the Sabbath.
Some work is allowed because of necessity. Animals need food and water on the Sabbath so it is not a violation of the Sabbath to give them food and water.
It is not against the law of Moses to give assistance in an emergency on the Sabbath.
It is not against the law of Moses to do acts of mercy on the Sabbath such as to heal someone.
The Pharisees et. al. had a problem because Jesus did not comply with all the rules and regulations that had stacked on top of the Law of Moses contrary to what was commanded. ( Deu 12:32)
Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial requirements of the Old Testament and revealed the reality of the laws of ceremonial purity when he stated that it is not what goes into a man that defiles him but what comes out of the overflow of his heart such as murders, adultery, etc. (Mat 15:10-11; Mark 7:18-23)
So Jesus fulfilled part of the law and rebuked the Pharisees, Scribes and Sadducees for adding their traditions to the law which made it impossible for the average person to keep.
He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.(Mat 5:17)
God said that He would make a new covenant. (Jer 31:31) Jesus did that. He established a new covenant which included both Jews and Gentiles. It was not a covenant which promised that one might "live long and prosper" in the promised land but that one might have eternal life. That was God's plan from the beginning and Jesus accomplished all that was necessary for anyone who believes to become a child of God. (John 1:12)
And Jesus of Nazareth was not a "rabbi called 'God with us' ", He was in fact, God the Logos made flesh dwelling among us. (John 1:14)
Doctrine does not save.
Belief in Jesus which includes obedience to Jesus' commands "saves." (In the manner that obedience to His commands is necessary to be saved by God. God does the saving; we don't.)
His commands were: love God; love one another; love your neighbor; and love your enemies.
The examples Jesus gave is:
Mat 25:34-35 “Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
and:
Mat 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
and in conclusion:
Mat 25:46 “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The Law of Moses was not given to bring salvation; its purpose was to make us aware of our sin and to lead us to Christ.;
(Rom 7:7 and Gal 3:24)
The reward for keeping the law is long and prosperous life in the promised land, not eternal life or salvation.
Deu 5:33 You shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God has commanded you, that you may live and that it may be well with you, and that you may prolong your days in the land which you shall possess.
It is common to speak of grace as if it were a "thing", like something that came in a box or a barrel.
It's not a thing we are given.
The word "grace" describes God's merciful act to destroy the power of sin to cause death (all will be resurrected, 1 Cor 15:52ff) and His granting those who believe and obey the right to be joined to Christ and have eternal life in Him. Graciousness is a characteristic of God; He is disposed to act graciously toward mankind and with great mercy because of His love for His creation.
Don't look to Jesus' actions and words to find an example that can be uses as an excuse to reject the doctrines of the Church. HE kept all the Law perfectly.
iakov the fool
Jim Parker
Member
Why do you do that to Trump?What do you want for yourself brother?
Made in the image and likeness of God (with us). How do we follow Jesus when we act like the devil as we defend what we believe we know of the teachings of Jesus?
Be kind.
And who appointed you to be my confessor?
chessman
Member
The passage says "those who are counted worthy to attain..." not those who will be (in the future) counted worthy.
It's verb form (aorist) explicitly says this particular action (counted worthy) has already occurred in the past, which is why we "are counted worthy".
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
FreeGrace,
Eternal life maybe should read eternal LIFE.
The life that Jesus gives us,
The Zoe Life within us that is of God.
In all the verses you've quoted above, the word BELIEVES is Always present tense.
One must believe at the time of Death.
At the time of Death is where we'll receive our eternal life.
How could it be otherwise?
If belief is a condition to being saved
and obedience is a condition of being saved,
How will I know till the end of my life if I kept the faith and am a believer?
1 John 2:3-4 tell us that those who know Him and do not keep His commandments are lying and the truth is not in them.
HOW do we know whether or not we WILL keep His commandments till the end?
IF KEEPING the commandments is a condition of salvation, then it stands to reason that it must be confirmed at the end of our life.
In Jesus own words.
John 14:15
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments".
NASB
Do I know right now that I will keep His commandments forever?
No. And if I must keep them to show my love for Him, then this is a prerequisite and/or a condition to the eternal life.
What we have now is a receipt to cash in at the end of our life.
Our eternal life takes ACTION at the end, even though it is promised to us now.
God did His part, now we must continue to do ours till we cash in the promise God has made to give us eternal LIFE.
But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, is a statement about the future, as "attain that age" speaks of the age to come, and those who being Judged at that time by the Lord, will have been found to be worthy.
35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36
- These are those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; and will receive eternal life.
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8
Again, speaking of the resurrection, Jesus teaches us who will receive eternal life -
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29
- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
- but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath. - Paul
- those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Do you believe that born again Christians who start out doing good for a while, but later they turn back to self seeking and doing evil, will receive eternal life?
JLB
Well, finally, a clear statement that is in total denial of what the Bible actually says.
Jesus tells us very plainly that eternal life is a present possession when one believes in these verses:
John 3:15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
In each of these verses, Jesus used the present tense, which is why all translators use the word "HAS". So, from the moment of belief, eternal life is a PRESENT POSSESSION. Not what you're claiming here.
But, as always, each one is free to believe whatever they want to believe.
But I will continue to believe what the Bible very clearly says. That when one believe, they possess eternal life, from these 4 verses.
And, Jesus then said that those He gives eternal life (believers, when they believe), they shall never perish, in John 10:28.
This is why I know the Bible teaches eternal security.
So the view that salvation can be lost is totally unbiblical.