What does it mean to perish (apóllymi)?

[JLB]

You posted a partial sentence (why you repeatedly do this is still an unanswered question, one of many) from chapter 4 and a discussion about how deacons who serve well as deacons obtain a good standing and great boldness (not obtain salvation) from a previous chapter.

Please point to the partial sentence and post number you are referring to.

Here's another question for you to leave unanswered; in the verse above, do deacons obtain salvation by serving well?

If they are born again, and live their lives in patient continuance in doing good, seeking for honor and immortality, they will receive eternal life.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


Again, speaking of the resurrection, Jesus teaches us who will receive eternal life -


28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

JLB

 

[JLB]

chessman said: ↑
This is not even a complete sentence. If your read the complete sentence we find out (versus obscure) exactly what faith it is Paul is teaching will happen in later times:

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, who forbid marrying and insist on abstaining from foods that God created for sharing in with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.

1 Timothy 4:1 refers to departing from the faith in Christ, the one who created all things, and died for our sins on the cross.



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
1 Timothy 3:8-4:5

Wrong. Please underline "in Christ" in verse 4:1. It ain't there.

Please tells us what the phrase depart from the faith is referring to if not faith in Christ?

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1



JLB

 

[JLB]

chessman said: ↑
His sheep:
1. hear His voice (not someone elses)
and
2. He knows them (after all He's speaking to them)
and
3. they follow Him (I'm not teaching a doctrine that says His sheep do not follow Him). Aren't you teaching that some of His sheep stop following Him? Why, if someone truly believed this verse's perfect truth, would anyone think His sheep (that have believed and heard and He knows them) not follow Him is beyond understanding.
And
4. He gives (perfect, active, singular) His sheep Eternal life (not temporary life). And He does so perfectly and all by Himself.
and
5. they shall never perish;
and
6. neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
(I'm of the doctrine that anyone means anyone including themselves and Satan).
Aren't you?

Again here is my answer -

1. His voice is the only voice that will produce faith in us.
2. Knowing Him is the definition of eternal life. [joined to Him as a wife is joined to her husband as one]
3. As long as they do not wander off in disobedience and become lost, they have fulfilled the condition.
4. Eternal life is in Christ. As long as a person is in Christ, they have the eternal life that is found in Him.
5. Those who are in Christ, and remain in Christ, will never perish
6. No one is able to take us away from Him by force. We are secure as we remain in Him though believing faith.

• Can you post a scripture that says believing/obeying is no longer required after a person becomes born again?

He who obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB



JLB

 

[JLB]

Well, finally, a clear statement that is in total denial of what the Bible actually says.

Jesus tells us very plainly that eternal life is a present possession when one believes in these verses:

John 3:15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

In each of these verses, Jesus used the present tense, which is why all translators use the word "HAS". So, from the moment of belief, eternal life is a PRESENT POSSESSION. Not what you're claiming here.

Can you still die?

What believers have now in this age is the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, within us, as long as we remain "in Him", the only place where eternal life is found.

Those who are disobedient to remain in Him, are cast into the fire and burned.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Sheep who become lost, because they have wandered from the truth, are in danger of eternal death, unless they repent and turn back to Him in obedience.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-21

• he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death

JLB

 

[JLB]

This is why I know the Bible teaches eternal security.

Can one of His sheep become lost?

Those who disobey the command to follow Him, can indeed wander off and become lost.

We also know those who disobey Him to remain in Him, can indeed be cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace,

Yes, wondering?

Eternal life maybe should read eternal LIFE.
The life that Jesus gives us,
The Zoe Life within us that is of God.

Of course.

In all the verses you've quoted above, the word BELIEVES is Always present tense.

Does the present tense mean that the action continues indefinitely?
Does the present tense demand that the result of the action occurs ONLY IF the verb continues to occur?

The answer to both questions is "no". It does not. That's the problem with the view that espouses loss of salvation. They have put demands on the present tense that are FALSE.

In the 4 verses I have quoted, they simply mean that WHEN one believes (that is present action WHEN they believe) they presently HAVE eternal life. That's ALL it means. It does NOT demand that one MUST continue to believe in order to continue to HAVE eternal life.

Such a claim is FALSE.

It is simply ludicrous to claim that the present tense means continuing action out into the future.

Further, all the aorist tense uses for believe refutes that notion. We are saved from a moment in time (aorist) action of believing in Christ.

Also, John 10:28 prevents the false claims about the present tense when Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

If continuing to believe were a condition for never perishing, Jesus' statement in Jn 10:28 is patently FALSE. But it isn't false; it's TRUE.

One must believe at the time of Death.

There are NO VERSES to support this opinion.

At the time of Death is where we'll receive our eternal life.

There are NO VERSES to support this opinion.

Plus, John 3;15,16, 5:24, and 6:47 refute the opinion. Eternal life is a present possession WHEN one believes. No one has shown otherwise.

How could it be otherwise?

It can't be shown otherwise, given the verses that clearly state that eternal life is a present possession WHEN one believes.

And there are ZERO verses about losing eternal life.

If belief is a condition to being saved

Yup. And the aorist tense means even a point in time believing.

and obedience is a condition of being saved,

Only in the sense of believing the gospel.

How will I know till the end of my life if I kept the faith and am a believer?

Doesn't matter for salvation, because Jesus said one HAS eternal life when one believes (4 verses) and those He gives eternal life (on the basis of the moment they believe and He gives them eternal life) they shall never perish.

1 John 2:3-4 tell us that those who know Him and do not keep His commandments are lying and the truth is not in them.

This is true of many believers. They are ignorant. Where does the Bible say that ignorant people go to hell?

HOW do we know whether or not we WILL keep His commandments till the end?

No one knows. But we KNOW that Jesus said that those He gives eternal life (when they believe, per the 4 verses) they shall never perish.

IF KEEPING the commandments is a condition of salvation, then it stands to reason that it must be confirmed at the end of our life.

No one is saved by keeping the commandments. That's what the Pharisees thought.

So consider what Jesus said to them about that notion:
John 5
39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

In Jesus own words.
John 14:15
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments".
NASB

What I didn't read in this verse is what seems to be your opinion:
"If you love Me, I'll save you" Why should anyone make that assumption?

Do I know right now that I will keep His commandments forever?

No. Do you believe what Jesus said in John 3:15,16, 5:24, and 6:47about possessing eternal life when you believed?
Do you believe what Jesus said in John 10:28 about those who have eternal life shall never perish?

No. And if I must keep them to show my love for Him, then this is a prerequisite and/or a condition to the eternal life.

But the Bible is very clear. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. Acts 16:31

What we have now is a receipt to cash in at the end of our life.

No we don't.

Our eternal life takes ACTION at the end, even though it is promised to us now.

What??!! Where does the Bible make such a claim?

God did His part, now we must continue to do ours till we cash in the promise God has made to give us eternal LIFE.

More error. God did EVERYTHING. That's why we call Jesus our Savior. He did it all. All we can do is receive the gift of eternal life through believing in Him for it.

Anything more than that is nothing less than a Pharisee-type works salvation system, which blasphemes the work of Christ on our behalf.

 

[FreeGrace]

Can you still die?

What believers have now in this age is the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, within us, as long as we remain "in Him", the only place where eternal life is found.

Those who are disobedient to remain in Him, are cast into the fire and burned.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Sheep who become lost, because they have wandered from the truth, are in danger of eternal death, unless they repent and turn back to Him in obedience.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-21

• he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death

JLB

Here's the truth:
1. eternal life is a PRESENT POSSESSION when one believes. John 3:15,16, 5:24 and 6:47
2. those given eternal life (when they believe) shall never perish. John 10:28

Neither of these statements has been refuted, nor can be. They are biblically based.

The view that salvation can be lost is in direct contradiction to these verses.

 

[chessman]

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, is a statement about the future, as "attain that age" speaks of the age to come, and those who being Judged at that time by the Lord, will have been found to be worthy.

Thanks for your opinion. An opinion which is provably wrong from the Text itself.

The verb tenses Dr. Luke chose to us for "counted worthy" and in fact "attain that age" are NOT future but rather aorist. Which translates to past tense completed action in the English, as evidenced in my previous post with link to an expert in NT Greek for proof. He could have chosen the future tense but didn't. Why change it???

Luke 20:35 (DLNT) But the ones having been considered-worthy to attain that age and the resurrection from the dead neither marry, nor are they given-in-marriage.

2661 [e]
kataxiōthentes
καταξιωθέντες
having been considered worthy
V-APP-NMP

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/20-35.htm​

Do you believe that born again Christians who start out doing good for a while, but later they turn back to self seeking and doing evil, will receive eternal life?

What verse are you asking about because "start out doing good for a while, but later they turn back ..." is nowhere found in this one

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life ...

 

[JLB]

Here's the truth:
1. eternal life is a PRESENT POSSESSION when one believes. John 3:15,16, 5:24 and 6:47
2. those given eternal life (when they believe) shall never perish. John 10:28

Neither of these statements has been refuted, nor can be. They are biblically based.

The view that salvation can be lost is in direct contradiction to these verses.

First, you are not presenting any language or words with the context that can be examined by all who are participating in this discussion.

1. eternal life is a PRESENT POSSESSION when one believes. John 3:15,16, 5:24 and 6:47

This is just your opinion, tagged with a scripture reference, that does not take into account all the conditions set forth by Jesus and Paul as well as the writers of the New Testament.

It also disregards what the word "believe" fully means from the context.

Believe = Commit, trust and obey.

Disobedience is unbelief.

Believers who believe for a while, then fall back into unbelief and disobedience, are no longer believers, which is plainly described as His sheep who become lost.

• Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
• Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.

Secondly, you refuse to examine the scriptures that I have presented with the context, about eternal life and those who will receive it.

I asked you a simple question.

• Can you still die?

What believers have now in this age is the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, within us, as long as we remain "in Him", the only place where eternal life is found.

Those who are disobedient to remain in Him, are cast into the fire and burned.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Sheep who become lost, because they have wandered from the truth, are in danger of eternal death, unless they repent and turn back to Him in obedience.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-21

• he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death

JLB

 

[JLB]

Thanks for your opinion. An opinion which is provably wrong from the Text itself.

The verb tenses Dr. Luke chose to us for "counted worthy" and in fact "attain that age" are NOT future but rather aorist. Which translates to past tense completed action in the English, as evidenced in my previous post with link to an expert in NT Greek for proof. He could have chosen the future tense but didn't. Why change it???

Luke 20:35 (DLNT) But the ones having been considered-worthy to attain that age and the resurrection from the dead neither marry, nor are they given-in-marriage.

2661 [e]
kataxiōthentes
καταξιωθέντες
having been considered worthy
V-APP-NMP

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/20-35.htm

All the commentary in the world will not change "that age", into something present, when it plain refers to the resurrection.

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, is a statement about the future, as "attain that age" speaks of the age to come, and those who being Judged at that time by the Lord, will have been found to be worthy.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

Now in this age, Jesus says those who are counted worthy to attain that age and the resurrection from the dead...


Are you trying to say the resurrection from the dead has past?



JLB

 

[JLB]

chessman said: ↑
His sheep:
1. hear His voice (not someone elses)
and
2. He knows them (after all He's speaking to them)
and
3. they follow Him (I'm not teaching a doctrine that says His sheep do not follow Him). Aren't you teaching that some of His sheep stop following Him? Why, if someone truly believed this verse's perfect truth, would anyone think His sheep (that have believed and heard and He knows them) not follow Him is beyond understanding.
And
4. He gives (perfect, active, singular) His sheep Eternal life (not temporary life). And He does so perfectly and all by Himself.
and
5. they shall never perish;
and
6. neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
(I'm of the doctrine that anyone means anyone including themselves and Satan).
Aren't you?

Again here is my answer -

1. His voice is the only voice that will produce faith in us.
2. Knowing Him is the definition of eternal life. [joined to Him as a wife is joined to her husband as one]
3. As long as they do not wander off in disobedience and become lost, they have fulfilled the condition.
4. Eternal life is in Christ. As long as a person is in Christ, they have the eternal life that is found in Him.
5. Those who are in Christ, and remain in Christ, will never perish
6. No one is able to take us away from Him by force. We are secure as we remain in Him though believing faith.

• Can you post a scripture that says believing/obeying is no longer required after a person becomes born again?

He who obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB



JLB

 

[chessman]

Please tells us what the phrase depart from the faith is referring to if not faith in Christ?

I don't have to. Paul did in the very sentence (context) what he means by "depart from the faith" here:

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, who forbid marrying and insist on abstaining from foods that God created for sharing in with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.​

Did you know that everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer?

 

[JLB]

↑chessman said:
This is not even a complete sentence. If your read the complete sentence we find out (versus obscure) exactly what faith it is Paul is teaching will happen in later times:

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, who forbid marrying and insist on abstaining from foods that God created for sharing in with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.
1 Timothy 4:1 refers to departing from the faith in Christ, the one who created all things, and died for our sins on the cross.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
1 Timothy 3:8-4:5

↑
Wrong. Please underline "in Christ" in verse 4:1. It ain't there.

Please tells us what the phrase depart from the faith is referring to if not faith in Christ?

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1



JLB

 

[chessman]

All the commentary in the world will not change "that age", into something present, when it plain refers to the resurrection.

I posted the Text, not commentary. Sorry if you disagree with the verb tenses Luke recorded of Jesus.

John 5:25-26 “Truly, truly I say to you, that an hour is coming—and now is here—when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in himself, thus also he has granted to the Son to have life in himself. ​

Sorry brother, but that age is here NOW!

 

[JLB]

I don't have to. Paul did in the very sentence (context) what he means by "depart from the faith" here:

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, who forbid marrying and insist on abstaining from foods that God created for sharing in with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.​

Did you know that everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer?

Ok, by you saying you don't have to, I will take it you mean depart from faith in what God created, rather than depart from faith in Christ.


So then, how does a person come to have faith in what God created?


I believe there is only one faith, faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.

My belief comes from this scripture:

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:4-6

• one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

Could you share with us where your belief comes from, that is faith in what God created?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I posted the Text, not commentary. Sorry if you disagree with the verb tenses Luke recorded of Jesus.

John 5:25-26 “Truly, truly I say to you, that an hour is coming—and now is here—when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in himself, thus also he has granted to the Son to have life in himself. ​

Sorry brother, but that age is here NOW!

You quoted what another person's opinion is, which is called commentary.

Here is your post, where you refer to some verb tense from another website.

The verb tenses Dr. Luke chose to us for "counted worthy" and in fact "attain that age" are NOT future but rather aorist. Which translates to past tense completed action in the English, as evidenced in my previous post with link to an expert in NT Greek for proof. He could have chosen the future tense but didn't. Why change it???

Luke 20:35 (DLNT) But the ones having been considered-worthy to attain that age and the resurrection from the dead neither marry, nor are they given-in-marriage.

2661 [e]
kataxiōthentes
καταξιωθέντες
having been considered worthy
V-APP-NMP

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/20-35.htm

• Is that age and the resurrection from the dead future or past?

Like everyone can see, that age is a reference to the future resurrection of the dead.

Referring to someone's commentary about what the Lord said, is a sign that you don't seem to understand that "that age" and the
"resurrection from the dead' is future.

But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, is a statement about the future, as "attain that age" speaks of the age to come, and those who being Judged at that time by the Lord, will have been found to be worthy.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

Now in this age, Jesus says those who are counted worthy to attain that age and the resurrection from the dead...


Are you trying to say the resurrection from the dead has past?



JLB

 

[Angel Water]

Why do you do that to Trump?

Trump is not part of our discussion.

And who appointed you to be my confessor?

You asked a question. You should not do this if you are going to become abusive when receiving answers you do not want. This attitude tells you you have much growing to do before you find peace in the Spirit. I know God will guide your steps.

 

[Angel Water]

Everyone

 

[chessman]

I will take it you mean depart from faith in what God created

Your propensity to take partial sentences and ignore the rest is not limited to just Paul in 1 Tim 4:1, I see. BTW, you didn't answer my question about Paul's sentence in 1 Tim 4:1-5

Nor your ability to change verb tenses to whichever one suits you.

You quoted what another person's opinion is, which is called commentary.

No I quoted the interlinear of, you guessed it, the Bible.

Is that age and the resurrection from the dead future or past?

Neither, present.

Are you teaching us that the age of the resurrection from the dead is future?

 

[JLB]

Your propensity to take partial sentences and ignore the rest is not limited to just Paul in 1 Tim 4:1, I see. BTW, you didn't answer my question about Paul's sentence in 1 Tim 4:1-5

Nor your ability to change verb tenses to whichever one suits you.


No I quoted the interlinear of, you guest it, the Bible.


Neither, present.

Are you teaching us that the age of the resurrection from the dead is future?

More stalling.

I will take it you mean depart from faith in what God created, rather than depart from faith in Christ.


So then, how does a person come to have faith in what God created?


I believe there is only one faith, faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.

My belief comes from this scripture:

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:4-6

• one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

Could you share with us where your belief comes from, that is faith in what God created?



JLB