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What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?

Short and sweet so you won't miss it this time:
"you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD." (Leviticus 19:18 NASB)


I see.

So in order to be saved and born again by the Gospel, we must believe in our heart and love our neighbors as ourself?


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10


This is what Paul says a person must DO in order to be saved.

Believe AND confess.

Not just believe all by itself.

To obey the Gospel, one must repent, which is turn to God [turn away from Satan], by confessing Jesus as Lord, and believe God raised Him from the dead.

Loving God and loving our neighbor comes over time, AFTER we have been born again, and have received the love of God, shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Spirit.



JLB
 
I see.

So in order to be saved and born again by the Gospel, we must believe in our heart and love our neighbors as ourself?
No. You do not have to love your neighbor as yourself in order to get born again.

The first time I answered your question I answered in the vein that you're addressing here. That is, what must one 'do' to be born again. I said 'believe'. Then when you pestered me again for an answer, as if I didn't answer your question, I addressed it in the vein of what one does to live out the gospel as a lifestyle. But now I see you meant in the vein of getting saved. So I once again answer it, 'believe'. That is what you must 'do' to be born again. And you must continue to believe to not lose the forgiveness of your sins.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10


This is what Paul says a person must DO in order to be saved.

Believe AND confess.

Not just believe all by itself.
We know from the whole counsel of scripture that Paul was not laying down a legalistic command for one to follow in order to be saved, and that you can't be saved unless you add that to your believing:

"44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" " (Acts 10:44-47 NASB)

Confessing with your mouth is no more a command that one has to follow before they can be saved than getting water baptized is. Though they are certainly part of a legitimate salvation experience.


Loving God and loving our neighbor comes over time, AFTER we have been born again, and have received the love of God, shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Spirit.
No argument from me about that, Ralphie.
 
So I once again answer it, 'believe'. That is what you must 'do' to be born again. And you must continue to believe to not lose the forgiveness of your sins.

The action of obedience, in response to the message of the Gospel is to Repent; that is turn to God by confessing Jesus as Lord.

Faith all by itself, is dead.

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20
But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:19-21

The action of obedience, whereby Abraham was justified was when he offered Isaac...

The action of obedience whereby we are saved is when we confess with our mouth, Jesus is Lord...confession is made unto salvation.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10


This is what Paul says a person must DO in order to be saved.

Believe AND confess.

Not just believe all by itself.

To obey the Gospel, one must repent, which is turn to God [turn away from Satan], by confessing Jesus as Lord, and believe God raised Him from the dead.

Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:14-15


JLB
 
The action of obedience, in response to the message of the Gospel is to Repent; that is turn to God by confessing Jesus as Lord.

Faith all by itself, is dead.
Faith all by itself is dead, not because faith all by itself can't save, but because the faith that is all by itself is not the quality of faith that can save. It is the faith of demons (James 2:19 NASB), and we all know it's not simply that all demons have to do is add works to their faith and they would be saved, but that the faith they do have is not the faith that saves.


The action of obedience, whereby Abraham was justified was when he offered Isaac...
Nope.
Paul and Moses say he was justified (made righteous) when he believed God in Genesis 15:6 NASB.


The action of obedience whereby we are saved is when we confess with our mouth, Jesus is Lord...confession is made unto salvation.
You're mistakenly making confession a legalistic work that has to be completed before God will save you. That's no different than the argument that water baptism is a legalistic work that must be completed first before God will save you. You're trapped in a works mentality--that works of righteousness secure salvation, but Paul soundly defeats that argument here:

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit," (Titus 3:5 NASB emphasis mine)

See? You have zero argument for salvation being on the basis of deeds, with God withholding salvation until you do something righteous to get it. Zero. And I showed you where the people in Cornelius' household did NOTHING except listen to the gospel to receive the seal of salvation, the Holy Spirit. It's the same passage that defeats the 'you must be water baptized before you can be saved' argument.


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10


This is what Paul says a person must DO in order to be saved.

Believe AND confess.

Not just believe all by itself.
The problem with your doctrine is not that confession will, or must, accompany a legitimate salvation, but that confession is somehow a condition that must be legalistically fulfilled before you are declared saved. We know that's not true from the example of Cornelius' household and Paul's plain statement that salvation is not based on doing righteous deeds.
 
The command to 'do' to be saved is not given because salvation is granted on the basis of doing right. The command to 'do' to be saved is given in order to prove that we have the faith that justifies all by itself.

"5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-unless * indeed you fail the test?" (2 Corinthians 13:5 NASB)

"brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you (by doing the things he just listed before this)" (2 Peter 1:10 NASB parenthesis mine)

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. 14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God..." (Philippians 2:12-15 NASB)

Upholding and fulfilling various righteous commands, including the law of Moses is how we prove that we have the faith that justifies all by itself, not how we add an additional power of salvation to faith in order to be saved. If you can't provide the proof that you have the faith that justifies all by itself then you do not have the faith that justifies all by itself. But you are making the proof itself the driving force and power of salvation. No, faith is that all by itself.
 
Faith all by itself is dead, not because faith all by itself can't save, but because the faith that is all by itself is not the quality of faith that can save. It is the faith of demons (James 2:19 NASB), and we all know it's not simply that all demons have to do is add works to their faith and they would be saved, but that the faith they do have is not the faith that saves.

Faith all by itself, if it doesn't have works is dead. James 2:17

Faith, all by itself, if it does not have obedience, which in the example of the Gospel Message, can not save.

Faith, that can save must have the "and" obedience together with it.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Please read these words Jethro, because at this point, you are in direct opposition with the plain words of scripture.

...confession is made unto salvation.




You're mistakenly making confession a legalistic work that has to be completed before God will save you. That's no different than the argument that water baptism is a legalistic work that must be completed first before God will save you. You're trapped in a works mentality--that works of righteousness secure salvation, but Paul soundly defeats that argument here:

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit," (Titus 3:5 NASB emphasis mine)

See? You have zero argument for salvation being on the basis of deeds, with God withholding salvation until you do something righteous to get it. Zero. And I showed you where the people in Cornelius' household did NOTHING except listen to the gospel to receive the seal of salvation, the Holy Spirit. It's the same passage that defeats the 'you must be water baptized before you can be saved' argument.


Sorry Jethro, your doctrine is not biblical.

10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.Romans 10:10

A person must repent, in response to the Gospel Command.

A person obeys confessing Jesus as Lord.

...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


Confessing with the mouth, Jesus as Lord, is the obedience of faith to the Gospel.

Faith without the action of obedience is dead.


JLB
 
We know that's not true from the example of Cornelius' household and Paul's plain statement that salvation is not based on doing righteous deeds.


1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment,
2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.
3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!"
4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.
5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter.
6 He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do."
7 And when the angel who spoke to him had departed, Cornelius called two of his household servants and a devout soldier from among those who waited on him continually.
8 So when he had explained all these things to them, he sent them to Joppa.
Acts 10:1-8

Cornelius obeyed God, because he obeyed God's messenger.

By faith, Cornelius gave instructions to his servants to go get Peter in obedient response to God, that he himself and his household would receive the gospel.

 
continued....

30 So Cornelius said, "Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31
and said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your alms are remembered in the sight of God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa and call Simon here, whose surname is Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea. When he comes, he will speak to you.'
33 So I sent to you immediately, and you have done well to come. Now therefore, we are all present before God, to hear all the things commanded you by God." Acts 10:30-33


By faith, Cornelius prayed to God, and his prayer was heard.

By faith, Cornelius obeyed the Voice of God, to the saving of his household.


JLB
 
Faith all by itself, if it doesn't have works is dead. James 2:17

Faith, all by itself, if it does not have obedience, which in the example of the Gospel Message, can not save.

Faith, that can save must have the "and" obedience together with it.
That's not what is in debate. Of course obedience accompanies genuine saving faith. Your contention that obedience has power to solicit salvation is what is in debate.

"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds" (Titus 3:5 NASB)

You are not saved because you did things. You are saved because you have the faith that does things. Big difference.

"faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6 NASB)
 
continued....

30 So Cornelius said, "Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31
and said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your alms are remembered in the sight of God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa and call Simon here, whose surname is Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea. When he comes, he will speak to you.'
33 So I sent to you immediately, and you have done well to come. Now therefore, we are all present before God, to hear all the things commanded you by God." Acts 10:30-33


By faith, Cornelius prayed to God, and his prayer was heard.

By faith, Cornelius obeyed the Voice of God, to the saving of his household.


JLB
I don't see your necessity for one to 'confess with their mouth to be saved' in the account. They did NOTHING to get the seal of God's salvation, the Holy Spirit.
 
I don't see your necessity for one to 'confess with their mouth to be saved' in the account. They did NOTHING to get the seal of God's salvation, the Holy Spirit.

My necessity?

Did I write Romans 10:9-10 ?

You have argued against the necessity for obedience to be a principle in the law of faith.

You have been thoroughly proven to be completely WRONG, by the scriptures.

Cornelius was the first Gentile to hear the Gospel, as his experience is quite extraordinary.

An angel was sent to him by God, with instructions of some things to obey, in order to receive the Gospel, to the saving of his household.

Cornelius was calling upon the Lord in prayer, and was heard by God.

Cornelius obeyed what the angel told him to do, and he obeyed what Peter told him to do.

He obeyed several more things than Paul instructs us to do through his letter to the Romans, but as anyone can plainly see, Cornelius's faith was accompanied by his obedience to do what he was instructed to do by God.

Paul says we must confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart...

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Confessing with your mouth is the action of obedience that makes faith active and alive in order to save.

Do you believe what Paul stated here in verse 9 is true or false?


JLB
 
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that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

Confessing with your mouth is the action of obedience that makes faith active and alive in order to save.

Do you believe what Paul stated here in verse 9 is true or false?
I believe that what you are saying it means is false.

I know that Paul did not mean that what we do has power to save (the infamous works gospel). How? Because he plainly said we are NOT saved "on the basis of deeds" (Titus 3:5 NASB). So it's impossible for the verse to mean the action of confessing Jesus as Lord in and of itself has power to secure salvation, but you say it does.

And you have failed to show where the people in Cornelius' household first confessed Jesus as Lord in order to be saved. I see them not even waiting for Peter to stop talking and them believing and being saved as evidenced by the receiving the Holy Spirit, in complete and utter contradiction to what you claim must happen first. Once again, I'm going with the Bible on this one, not what you say.
 
I believe that what you are saying it means is false.

This is what Paul said -

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

I say -
we must believe in our heart and confess with our mouth, the Lord Jesus.

It is our confession that is unto salvation.

It is our obedience to the Gospel message, to confess Jesus as Lord, together with believing in our heart.

This is what Paul teaches.

This is what James teaches.

This is what JLB teaches.

Irrefutable Truth from the Bible.

Faith without the action of obedience as displayed by Cornelius, by Abraham, by Noah.., is dead and does not please God.


JLB
 
So you have no answer as to why Cornelius' family did nothing to be saved and have the seal of the Holy Spirit as the evidence of that salvation in Acts 10:43-46 NASB? Obviously they, too, did not believe that one has to confess Christ as Lord before they could be saved.
 
So you have no answer as to why Cornelius' family did nothing to be saved and have the seal of the Holy Spirit as the evidence of that salvation in Acts 10:43-46 NASB? Obviously they, too, did not believe that one has to confess Christ as Lord before they could be saved.


I guess you have not read what I posted.

It was through Cornelius' obedience that brought Peter and the Gospel to his household.


Post # 767 -

1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment,
2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.
3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!"
4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.
5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter.
6 He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do."
7 And when the angel who spoke to him had departed, Cornelius called two of his household servants and a devout soldier from among those who waited on him continually.
8 So when he had explained all these things to them, he sent them to Joppa.
Acts 10:1-8

Cornelius obeyed God, because he obeyed God's messenger.

By faith, Cornelius gave instructions to his servants to go get Peter in obedient response to God, that he himself and his household would receive the gospel.



Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter.
He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do."
Acts 10:5-6


By faith, Cornelius obeyed God, and sent men to go get Peter and bring Peter to his household, so that Peter could tell him what HE MUST DO TO BE SAVED!

Can you read.

Cornelius a devout man, was nothing but OBEDIENT to do everything he was told to do.

God The Holy Spirit knows Cornelius believes BECAUSE Cornelius has obeyed everything he has been told to do, to be saved by faith through obedience, as well as being Baptized

For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Acts 10:46

How do you know what these folks were not thanking Jesus and praising and confessing Him as Lord?


JLB
 
For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Acts 10:46

How do you know what these folks were not thanking Jesus and praising and confessing Him as Lord?
They did NOTHING to receive the Holy Spirit in salvation except believe what Peter was saying--no water baptism, no confessing Jesus as Lord. The speaking in tongues indicates that they have already been saved. They are not speaking in tongues in order to be saved. Their tongues indicate they are already saved:

45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God." (Acts 10:45-46 NASB)
 
They did NOTHING to receive the Holy Spirit in salvation except believe what Peter was saying--no water baptism, no confessing Jesus as Lord. The speaking in tongues indicates that they have already been saved. They are not speaking in tongues in order to be saved. Their tongues indicate they are already saved:

45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God." (Acts 10:45-46 NASB)

We do know for sure that Cornelius, like Abraham, obeyed the Voice of God, through God's messenger.

3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!"
4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. 6 He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do." Acts 10:3-5

We know that Cornelius was instructed to send for Peter, who then would tell Cornelius what Cornelius must do.


Cornelius obeyed everything he was instructed to do, without obeying what God through His angel and through Peter, then Cornelius would not receive the salvation of that comes by faith.

We do know for sure that Cornelius was instructed to be Baptized, which is an outward expression of repentance.

Cornelius, like Abraham, obeyed the Voice of God.

Abraham, believed God when He told Abraham to get out of his own country to a land that He would show him.

Abraham obeyed.

Then while actually standing in the place where God told him to go, God reaffirms His Promise to Abraham, to make him a great nation.

Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:5-6


  • Abraham, like Cornelius, had already demonstrated the obeying part of faith, when they believed.

Abraham was already in the promised land because he believed and demonstrated he believed by obeying the Voice of God to go.

What Abraham was doing, in Genesis 15:6 was to continue to believe God, as he already obeyed by getting out of his father's house, and out of his own country, TO THE LAND THAT GOD WOULD SHOW HIM, AND MAKE HIM A GREAT NATION.

Make him a great nation = many, many descendants.

Likewise, Cornelius demonstrated the same obedience that faith requires, in obeying the Voice of God.

We don't know what all Peter told him to do... He will tell you what you must do.

We do know
that Cornelius obeyed what he must do.

We can clearly see that instantly Cornelius responded to what Peter preached, and was saved.

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water... Acts 10:44-47

Those who came with Peter believed the Gentiles were saved, BECAUSE they heard them speak with there mouth, in response to the preaching of Peter. ...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Your mistake is to try and rule out that obedience is required in faith.

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10

Cornelius and his house had indeed turned to God, and were indeed using there mouth to magnify the Lord, in response to Peter presenting the Gospel to them.


JLB
 
I'm ruling obedience out as the source of justification.
Obedience is the result of faith/ justification, not the source of it.

That's your words, not scripture.

Faith without works is dead.

Let's move this discussion a little closer to some common ground.

What you have not said, but what I sense in your post's that I agree with, is what I perceive to be your motive... though the Voice of God which is His Law is different than the law of Moses.


JLB
 
... I believe your motive to be: God is the one that does the saving, and not our co-operating effort.

I believe it is the empowering ability of grace, through faith that enables us to obey.

In other words, grace is from God and faith comes from God; it's our part to respond in obedience, but even that is empowered by His grace.


It was Jesus Christ alone, who lived an obedient righteous life before God, and in obedience He went to the Cross on our behalf and wrought our salvation... if we Repent, and believe in the gospel. Mark 1:15

...and we will continue to be saved if we continue to believe.


When someone is is bound by Satan, because they belong to Satan, even their ability to confess Jesus Christ as Lord, comes from the empowering grace of the gospel.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

JLB


PS - Why don't we move this discussion to a new thread called - The Obedience of faith. or whatever you want to call it.



 
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