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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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What does the Word say about the Law of YHWH which, in reality, is the Law of Moses?
Jethro Bodine
Member
Who said having faith doesn't have an effect?
The mistake you're making is thinking the action faith takes does the justifying. Faith does that all by itself before any work is done that might try to rob faith of the credit for justification.
We needn't wonder about this. This teaching is made plain by Paul.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:5 NASB)
"For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law." (Galatians 3:21 NASB)
And it seems this misunderstanding about faith/works is what drives this doctrine of yours about there being a law of God that must be kept in order to be declared righteous, and a law of Moses that must be kept in order to be declared righteous, as if they are any different anyway.
I know there's no changing your mind, but hey, it's something to talk about.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Honestly, this just looks like a big non-answer.
Can you explain why God abolished what you would call the 'eternal' law of circumcision?
If you can understand why God abolished (that is, set aside, not destroyed) the law of physical circumcision which Abraham was commanded to obey in order for him to gain righteousness (in your doctrine), and, because it's before the law of Moses and therefore included in your law of God that remains when the law of Moses gets obliterated, then you can understand how the law of Moses can be set aside yet be 'kept' by us during this New Covenant, not utterly obliterated as your doctrine has it.
"...nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter" (Romans 2:28-29 NASB)
Seriously, if you can get how we don't have to literally keep the eternal law of circumcision that existed before the law of Moses, which you say remains after the law of Moses was destroyed, but which we both know we really do 'keep' by our faith in Christ, then you can get how we don't literally have to keep the ceremonial parts of the law of Moses because they have been set aside, but which we really do 'keep' by our faith in Christ.
Physical circumcision is not required to be "in covenant" as per the Apostle Paul, an Ambassador, or Representative, or spokesman for Christ.
Since the Lord is both the Covenant Maker for the Abrahamic Covenant and The Mediator of the New Covenant, He through His Apostles, can modify it.
According to the Abrahamic Covenant, the natural descendants were required to be physically circumcised.
In the New Covenant, physical Circumcision is not required.
18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
20 Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called.1 Corinthians 7:18-20
Is it wrong for the natural descendants to be circumcised? No!
1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.
Romans 3:1-2
Here we have clear direction concerning Circumcision in the New Testament.
Not so under the law of Moses.
JLB
What exactly do you have against being obedient.
It was the transgression of Adam, that is to say, his disobedience to God that brought sin and death upon all mankind.
You are quick to talk about all the Church's who peddle a lawless Grace doctrine, but when your doctrine is exposed, you now have swayed the other direction.
You certainly have not addressed all the scriptures I have presented, that show it was Abraham's obedience, to obey the Voice of God that said; Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you...
Which establishes the principle of obedience, in the righteousness that is according to faith.
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8
Abraham was obedient, before he was accounted or reckoned as being righteous.
Abraham was actually declared to be righteous, [justified] WHEN he offered up Isaac... SO THAT the scripture was fulfilled that said, Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. as righteousness...
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:21-23
Hopefully, you will actually address these points, with the scriptures I have presented, so we can have a fruitful discussion.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
I did address these. Your interpretation of these passages contradicts what Paul said, that righteousness is not granted to a person on the basis of righteous things we do but by God's grace (Titus 3:5-7 NASB). Righteousness is granted "apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB).
What you're doing is not dividing the Word of God properly. Your interpretation of the Genesis passages has to be in light of the rest of scripture and what it says. But as it is, your doctrine directly contradicts what Paul said.
Jethro Bodine
Member
What you don't understand is that the faith that justifies all by itself "apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB) is the faith that manifests itself in works of righteousness, particularly love (Galatians 5:6 NASB). Faith must do that, not because the works themselves procure righteousness, but because that is what justifying faith does--it works. Works are the visible footprints of faith, the faith of Abraham. A lack of faithful footprints signifies that there is no faith capable of justifying a person driving them.
All you've done is take the works gospel that even the church knows is false and converted into another works gospel. If you understood WHY faith justifies, while works can not, you'd understand how it is that faith all by itself does the justifying apart from the merit of work, any work.
Your gospel:
Justification is granted on the basis of satisfactory 'faithful' work completed. Righteous work is rewarded with a declaration of righteousness, Righteousness is earned by the person through the power of faith. (The only difference between your works gospel and the one condemned in scripture is the particular work you say can/ can't make a person righteous.)
The true gospel:
Justification is granted on the basis of faith in God's forgiveness which wipes away our unrighteousness for free. It is impossible for righteous work to take away a person's unrighteousness that has separated them from the nation and people of God, and therefore, separated them from the inheritance. Righteous work is just the evidence that the person does indeed have a righteousness that comes by faith "apart from works" (Romans 4:6 NASB).
Forgiveness of sin is why works play no part in justification. Justification is granted on the basis of having your unrighteousness removed through the forgiveness of that unrighteousness and having it replaced with Christ's righteousness. There is no work that can be done to accomplish that same feat. None. There is no law given that can do that same thing--take away our unrighteousness and replace it with Christ's. Only faith in the forgiveness of sins through the Son of Promise can do that. That's why we have the gospel of God's unmerited favor (grace), and not a gospel of works satisfactorily performed to earn God's favor.
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What you don't understand is faith all by itself, if it doesn't have the act of obedience is dead
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17
Not the works of the law.
Not good works.
Obedience. That is the plain and clear example that James gives, in context with what he teaches about this subject.
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.
Romans 3:26-4:10
You can not separate the principle with the law of faith that says - Faith without works [obedience] is dead.
My Point -
In Romans 4:6, the scripture you referenced, Paul is contrasting the works of the law of Moses, with the righteousness of faith.
Paul builds his legal argument in Romans 3, Commenting on the advantage the Jews have...
1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God...
He then introduces the righteousness apart from the works of the law of Moses -
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. Romans 4:1-4
So the works that Paul refers to in Romans 4 is a reference to the deeds or the works of the law.
It is not a reference to the obedience of faith.
Faith all by itself is dead. James 2:17
Your doctrine pits scripture against scripture while you are comparing apples to oranges.
And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:6
Do you understand WHERE Abraham was standing WHEN he believed the Lord???
He was not in his father's house, or in the land of Ur of the Chaldeans, he was IN THE PROMISED LAND.
Abraham had already obeyed God and left his father's house and the land of his father.
Abraham proved that he believed by his obedience, when the scripture says Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteous.
1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward."
2 But Abram said, "Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"
3 Then Abram said, "Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!"
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
7 Then He said to him, "I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it."
Genesis 15:1-7
JLB
There's your contradiction, plain and simple.
Paul contrast's the works of the law, with the righteousness of faith.
Your doctrine violates the principle of faith that actually establishes the righteousness according to faith.
It very simple.
Faith come by hearing God.
If you don't obey what you hear God telling you to do, your faith is dead.
You have faith, WHEN you hear God, if you do nothing in response to God, then your faith all by itself is worthless, powerless, ineffective and DEAD.
When a person hears the Gospel from one sent by God, and they don't turn to God, and confess Jesus as Lord, then they have not obeyed the Holy Command of the Gospel to REPENT!
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”[e]and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22
JLB
You have completely misrepresented what I have said, and you know it.
My Gospel says, You must repent: which means turn to God, and confess with you mouth the Lord Jesus.
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10
This is the work of obeying the Gospel.
This is completely in line with what James teaches... Faith without works [the action of obedience] is dead.
Faith all by itself, without the action of obedience is dead. James 2:17
The action of obedience in response to the holy command, Repent; for the kingdom of God is at hand... is to turn to God and confess Jesus as Lord.
Those who later turn away from God, are called hypocrites, and have turned back...
Now, as you said, obedience is "doing something".
Please tell me what it is one must do to obey the Gospel?
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
The mistake you're making is thinking the works are what MAKES a person righteous. It is God's forgiveness, ALL BY ITSELF, that makes a person righteous. A forgiveness secured through faith that God will do that for them.
The works that follow don't have any power to make a person righteous. That is impossible. The works that follow are the result of having been made righteous. People made righteous then do righteous things, but unrighteous people remain in their unrighteous things:
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins (that is, make us righteous)
7 ...the one who practices righteousness is righteous (has been made righteous through the forgiveness of sins), just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil (they have not been made righteous through the forgiveness of sins)
(1 John 3:5,7,8 NASB parenthesis mine).
Works do not transform a person. Transformed people do works. But you have it that works somehow transform a person making them into a righteous person. There is no command given that can do that (Galatians 3:21 NASB). Only God's forgiveness can clean the slate and make a person righteous. The inheritance comes through God's promise that he will forgive your sins. It does not come through the merit of doing righteous things.
All you have to do, to clarify your position, is to explain what a person must do to obey the Gospel?
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Believe.
"6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision (nor any other work) means anything (toward justification--see context), but faith (that is what counts towards justification) working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB parenthesis mine)
We can tell if we are doing the believing that solicits God's forgiveness by whether or not it has changed us into obedient, transformed new creations who uphold his righteousness. That's the 'working through love' part in the above verse.
You said faith all by itself, without doing anything saves...
This is what you said in a previous quote:
Of course obedience is works.
James says faith without works is dead.
Again what is it that a person must do in order to obey the Gospel.
Based on what you said -
Obedience is works, obedience is doing something.
What is the "doing something" in your Gospel that qualifies as obedience.
JLB
Never said it did, those are your words.
Obedience to the Gospel Command to repent, which means turn to God and confess Jesus as Lord, is what I have said repeatedly.
You know this.
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10
It's the "and" that you don't have in your Gospel, that makes your doctrine a doctrine of man.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
But you're not getting the rest of the story...
The faith that justifies (makes a person righteous) all by itself apart from works (Romans 4:6 NASB), is the faith that can then be seen in what it does. Because that's what justifying faith looks like in a person. That's why God will judge us using our works (Matthew 25:14-46 NASB). They are the measuring rod of whether or not we have faith in Christ and have accepted his offer of forgiveness. He won't be using works to judge a person because works--even faithful works--somehow earn a person salvation. That is impossible. The only way to be forgiven and made a righteous person eligible for the kingdom is to have your sins graciously wiped away as a free gift. Works can never wipe away sin and make a person righteous before God and fit for the kingdom. Never.
See, I have works being necessary for salvation in that works are the expected and obligatory outcome of justifying faith. In my doctrine works are how we know we have the faith that justifies all by itself (James 2:18 NASB).
You have works necessary for salvation in that works are what you do to merit salvation. In your doctrine works--works of faith--are how a person earns the right to be saved.
Hopefully, we'll be able to relate this all back to the law of Moses, which we surely can. They are not unrelated at all.
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Again what is it that a person must do in order to obey the Gospel.
Based on what you said -
Obedience is works, obedience is doing something.
What is the "doing something" in your Gospel that qualifies as obedience.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
The obedience of faith is summed up in Leviticus 19:18 NASB
"you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD." (Leviticus 19:18 NASB)
Which, Paul and Jesus said, fulfills and upholds ALL the law of Moses:
"14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."" (Galatians 5:14 NASB capitals in original)
'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40 NASB bold and underline mine, capitals in original)
Which is contrary to popular church doctrine that has the law of Moses completely and utterly obliterated.
The obedience of love is how we KNOW we have the righteousness that comes by faith in God's forgiveness. Love is not how we are MADE legally righteous before God. Faith does that all by itself (Romans 4:6 NASB).
Another non answer.
Please just answer the simple question, Jethro.
You have accused me over and over of not understanding this and that.
Just answer the question, if you can.
What is it, that your doctrine and your Gospel, says must be done to obey the Gospel of the kingdom of God.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Short and sweet so you won't miss it this time:
"you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD." (Leviticus 19:18 NASB)