What God Has Not Given Us

[lesjude]

Not only is there no biblical basis for your assertions, God created everything good and that includes the multitude of plants that have medicinal qualities. Unless you want to argue that the fall resulted in medicinal plants or that Satan created them, without any biblical basis whatsoever, you have no case here.

God gave us medicine and the medical system for our benefit. We should never say God is only for miraculous healing and against medicine. It is not only unbiblical, it is dangerous.

Reba,
Here is the scripture, it says every good and perfect gift. Also note where it comes from.
James 1:16-18

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.


What you are saying is it dangerous to trust the Creator of the universe and the Creator of the human body to heal when a believer trusts Him alone, which He clearly promises to do. You are saying that God gives drugs, all of which are poison and harmful in any amount, cure nothing, are bankrupting the nation/businesses; instead of the word, name and blood of Jesus. These are a good and perfect gift from above? They kill 1000's every year by their own admission and you say it is dangerous to trust God? This does not include the maiming and unnecessary 'procedures' or the drug related deaths from legal drugs.
God did not even leave the unbelievers to that system if you carefully read Mark 16:17-18. Jesus demonstrated this when He healed those that did not "believe" anything. See John 9 and John 5:1-15.
If more believers would do this we could make a big dent in the hospital population. We have done this and seen results and will see more.
Would it not be better to seek Jesus to see if these things are true then argue about them? We have the scripture and the experience. Does our testimony offend you? If so, why?

Do you have the experiences that the Bible says all believers are to have in Acts 19:1-6?

 

[Free]

Reba,
Here is the scripture, it says every good and perfect gift. Also note where it comes from.
James 1:16-18

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

I'm not reba but since you quoted me, I'll assume you were addressing me.

I don't understand how you are applying this verse. I fully agree that "every perfect gift is from above." If there are beneficial medications and vaccines, and there are, then how can these possibly be excluded from the above verse?

What you are saying is it dangerous to trust the Creator of the universe and the Creator of the human body to heal when a believer trusts Him alone, which He clearly promises to do.

Don't take my words beyond what I stated. My point is that it is very dangerous to say that God is against medicine as not only is there no biblical basis for such a belief, it may cause someone to stop taking medications that could save their life or the lives of those around them.

We cannot play either doctor nor God.

You are saying that God gives drugs, all of which are poison and harmful in any amount, cure nothing, are bankrupting the nation/businesses; instead of the word, name and blood of Jesus.

Again, this is taking my words beyond what I have stated. God gave us medicine and those with medical knowledge for our benefit. Does that mean that everything is safe or the system is perfect? Not at all. And I clearly have not said anything against praying and believing for healing.

Do you have the experiences that the Bible says all believers are to have in Acts 19:1-6?

That passage does not state anywhere that all believers are to have that experience.

 

[reba]

Lesjude No that is not what i said i said i thank God for His creation. Becareful of bearing false witness.

I have seen, been part of penticostalism for 65 years i have heard all you say about 50 years ago. You are not new just old hat.... I would suggest you be careful so you are not tested beyond your faith. I have seen to many of your kind with dentures, fillings, glasses. I have also seen the heart break, the crying of i have no faith or my loved one would be healed. Where is your faith that those in your area are not all healed?

Eze 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine

Isa 38:21 For Isaiah had said, Let them take a lump of figs, and lay it for a plaister upon the boil, and he shall recover.

Luk 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

 

[Milk-Drops]

I see you identify yourself as a "non-Christian". In case you don't know this, but I suspect that you do, those Christians who reject mainstream medical technology are a tiny minority.

As a Christian, I believe that medical technology is an important dimension of God's kingdom which is slowly (perhaps) yet inexorably advancing to reach one of its ultimate goals: the defeat of death.

My comment was only aimed at Lesjude. I was just trying to show what his/her position would sound like if applied to historical sicknesses and all that.

 

[lesjude]

Lesjude No that is not what i said i said i thank God for His creation. Becareful of bearing false witness.

I have seen, been part of penticostalism for 65 years i have heard all you say about 50 years ago. You are not new just old hat.... I would suggest you be careful so you are not tested beyond your faith. I have seen to many of your kind with dentures, fillings, glasses. Where is your faith that those in your area are not all healed?

Eze 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine

Where is your faith that those in your area are not all healed?

Some have been and more will be. What are you doing in your area? It does say "those who believe".

Actually it goes all the way back to the oldest book in the Bible, Job.

No need for concern. Jesus will not allow us to be tested beyond what we are able. All of us have had life or death trials and Jesus was/is faithful. Here is the promise:1 Corinthians 10:13New King James Version (NKJV)

13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

I think the hardest for me was when our 6th child was stillborn. There was quite a bit of fear to overcome. It was some time until I "got over" it. It was quite intense for about 30 minutes. Honestly, when I think back of all the issues Jesus was faithful in I ask myself how did we ever do that? The answer is Jesus!

 

[reba]

You'll see.

 

[lesjude]

See what?
We have had Christians praying against us in the community to the effect that God would teach us a lesson with something that would be so serious we would have to go to the medical system. It was about then that out stillborn daughter was born. One of the people later came to us and asked for forgiveness.
We call those kinds of prayers charismatic witchcraft prayers. I do not recommend that kind of praying.

 

[westtexas]

We have the testimony of 34 years of our lives and the scripture.

I hate to assume, but from your posts, can I assume that there has never been the death of a Bible believing born-again Christian in your family in 34 years?
Westtexas

 

[reba]

See what?
We have had Christians praying against us in the community to the effect that God would teach us a lesson with something that would be so serious we would have to go to the medical system. It was about then that out stillborn daughter was born. One of the people later came to us and asked for forgiveness.
We call those kinds of prayers charismatic witchcraft prayers. I do not recommend that kind of praying.

Those are your thoughts not mine.... I would not pray such a thing.

 

[lesjude]

What is in your heart will come out of your mouth eventually. You gave me a specific warning and believe nothing of what I have said. Then you say, "You will see". It seems there are heart issues involved.

 

[westtexas]

What is in your heart will come out of your mouth eventually. You gave me a specific warning and believe nothing of what I have said. Then you say, "You will see". It seems there are heart issues involved.

Can we say the same about you lesjude? It seems to me you are being exceedingly judgmental of a woman who has been kind and considerate to ALL members of this forum for 2 yrs(even in disagreement).How do you know she has "heart issues"? What is in your heart.....

I can't speak for Reba but let me address her "We'll see". We can pull up articles should you so desire but what will you say to your brethren who lose a child due to no medical intervention and their faith is thus tested( as per Reba's post#23)? They didn't have enough faith? Too much sin? And then comes the falling away from faith.
Any thoughts? Westtexas

 

[lesjude]

I can't speak for Reba but let me address her "We'll see". We can pull up articles should you so desire but what will you say to your brethren who lose a child due to no medical intervention and their faith is thus tested( as per Reba's post#23).

You make my point by referring to this post, if this was indeed what she was referring to. Some lesson.
I make no judgement of the examples you have given. I will say it was not God that failed. With most of the Christian community opposed to trusting Jesus alone for ANYTHING He promises there is very little prayer support and few one could even call for it. In fact, as I have pointed out, it is too often the opposite.
Medical mind control is a VERY powerful principality.

 

[AirDancer]

Why would any believer take poison when Jesus provided healing in the atonement? I am not sure why this is an issue. When I got born again and saw these things in scripture I wanted them for myself, family and others, not argue and fight about it. If you have read my "Testimony/Normal Christianity" you will see Jesus has always been faithful.

Hi, lesjude,

You have overlooked the fact that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is the gift of healing.

1 Corinthians 12:9
to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. (Both quotes from NKJV)

We each can heal, provided we have the gift. This is very much so truth. And this truth also includes members of the medical profession. No where in Scripture does it say that these gifts of healing are freely given 'except to medical folks'.

I know far too many people who would not be alive today if it weren't for the blessed medical professionals who helped to save them. Does this mean these people did not have sufficient faith to heal themselves? Absolutely no, it does not mean this at all.

Just something to consider, lesjudes.

Peace.

 

[westtexas]

With most of the Christian community opposed to trusting Jesus alone for ANYTHING He promises there is very little prayer support and few one could even call for it.

Quite the contrary. Many of the Christian community trust Jesus for everything. Including which is the correct doctor to visit. I'll agree that prayer ministry is a powerful tool in our lives but it can also be used together with physicians and medical science.

I still see no scriptural support from you as to your belief that medicine and doctors are unscriptural. Don't believe I am going to see any either. With that I'll let everyone else have this thread unless you want to specifically address anything I have said. I don't see this thread going anywhere.
Westtexas

 

[reba]

Lesjude No that is not what i said i said i thank God for His creation. Becareful of bearing false witness.

I have seen, been part of penticostalism for 65 years i have heard all you say about 50 years ago. You are not new just old hat.... I would suggest you be careful so you are not tested beyond your faith. I have seen to many of your kind with dentures, fillings, glasses. I have also seen the heart break, the crying of i have no faith or my loved one would be healed. Where is your faith that those in your area are not all healed?

Eze 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine

Isa 38:21 For Isaiah had said, Let them take a lump of figs, and lay it for a plaister upon the boil, and he shall recover.

Luk 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

I have seen, been part of penticostalism for 65 years i have heard all you say about 50 years ago. You are not new just old hat.... I would suggest you be careful so you are not tested beyond your faith. I have seen to many of your kind with dentures, fillings, glasses. I have also seen the heart break, the crying of i have no faith or my loved one would be healed. Where is your faith that those in your area are not all healed?

The above is all i was referring too by saying you'll see. I disagree with your interpretation of scripture and you start hinting at witchcraft?

 

[lesjude]

Hi, lesjude,

You have overlooked the fact that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is the gift of healing.

1 Corinthians 12:9

to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,

They do not cut people up or use poison/drugs.
1 Corinthians 12:28
A

nd God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. (Both quotes from NKJV)
We each can heal, provided we have the gift. This is very much so truth. And this truth also includes members of the medical profession. No where in Scripture does it say that these gifts of healing are freely given 'except to medical folks

'.
Please see James 5:14-15, Mark 16:17-18, John 14:12, Mark 11:24 with Psalm 103:1-5 and 1 Peter 2:24.
Again the gifts set in the church do not use drugs/poison or cut people up to 'heal' or frequently kill them in the process. Are you saying this is God's 'gift'?

I know far too many people who would not be alive today if it weren't for the blessed medical professionals who helped to save them. Does this mean these people did not have sufficient faith to heal themselves? Absolutely no, it does not mean this at all.

What it usually means is no one has told them the truth of Divine healing clearly set in the Church as in James 5:14-15, all the gifts, and healing that is available by asking in faith based on the promises in Psalm 103:1-5 and Mark 11:24. If they have been told they simply reject it. Or can find no elder that can pray the prayer of faith.

Just something to consider, lesjudes.

I stopped using the occult based medical system shortly after I was born again. You really owe it to yourself to look in to where and how they got there medical knowledge and the oath(s). You will also discover that medicine is NOT a true science.

Peace.

and safety.

 

[lesjude]

The above is all i was referring too by saying you'll see. I disagree with your interpretation of scripture and you start hinting at witchcraft?

This clearly says I will get a "lesson". How else would I see what you clearly think I should? I told of my experience in this regard. And that clearly was witchcraft.
I am not sure why you feel offended by our testimony or a need to come against it. I give you 34 years of Jesus' faithfulness and you give me, "you will see"? It makes no sense.
It is a little like the time my wife had been hemorrhaging for days. A pastor friend called me to say my wife would likely die if I did not rush her to the hospital. I simply told him there would be a funeral if Jesus did not show up. Now this makes no sense to y'all of course, but Jesus was faithful. Again. As He had been several times before in the same situation. I must get more grace than y'all and here is why. I ask for it and wait until He sends it. It is the hardest thing you will EVER learn to do.

 

[reba]

See what?
We have had Christians praying against us in the community to the effect that God would teach us a lesson with something that would be so serious we would have to go to the medical system. It was about then that out stillborn daughter was born. One of the people later came to us and asked for forgiveness.
We call those kinds of prayers charismatic witchcraft prayers. I do not recommend that kind of praying.

Lesjude you have a right to live your life as you see fit... You have come to a public forums you will get responses as you well know... the above quote shows the very strong hints of calling me a witch.
I disagree with your inturpatation of scripture you disagree with mine. I have seen the hurts to the people and to the body the line of thinking/believing you spout.

 

[AirDancer]

Please see James 5:14-15, Mark 16:17-18, John 14:12, Mark 11:24 with Psalm 103:1-5 and 1 Peter 2:24.
Again the gifts set in the church do not use drugs/poison or cut people up to 'heal' or frequently kill them in the process. Are you saying this is God's 'gift'?

The Holy Spirit's gifts of healing does indeed include cutting. How else can heart patients be healed by gift-receiving surgeons?

How else can a gift-receiving surgeon save lives when appendixes rupture (or threaten to do so?)

What it usually means is no one has told them the truth of Divine healing clearly set in the Church as in James 5:14-15, all the gifts, and healing that is available by asking in faith based on the promises in Psalm 103:1-5 and Mark 11:24. If they have been told they simply reject it. Or can find no elder that can pray the prayer of faith.

I know of no believers who don't immediately start praying when health issues arise. Absolutely NO rejection of faith at all. For you to even suggest such a thing is condemnation in the worst case. You are negatively judging people you don't even know and have no idea as to the firmness of their faith.

I stopped using the occult based medical system shortly after I was born again. You really owe it to yourself to look in to where and how they got there medical knowledge and the oath(s). You will also discover that medicine is NOT a true science.

I don't subscribe to the belief that all medical professionals are involved in an occult based system. You have the right to not make use of the medical profession or to have faith in such the system, but do not attempt to put me or anyone else down because we do not view it the same as you. We have choice/ free will as well.

Be at peace.

 

[lesjude]

The Holy Spirit's gifts of healing does indeed include cutting. How else can heart patients be healed by gift-receiving surgeons?

How else can a gift-receiving surgeon save lives when appendixes rupture (or threaten to do so?)

James 5:14-15 eliminates any need for all you have mentioned. Is there anything too hard for God? Is this not a promise? Are not all His promises yes and amen?

I know of no believers who don't immediately start praying when health issues arise. Absolutely NO rejection of faith at all. For you to even suggest such a thing is condemnation in the worst case. You are negatively judging people you don't even know and have no idea as to the firmness of their faith.[/QUOTE

]Are believers Jesus' bride and one flesh with Him? What is the grounds for divorce in the NT? Is there such a thing as spiritual fornication?
Is this scripture not true:
Jeremiah 17:5

New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Thus says the Lord:
“Cursed is the man who trusts in man
And makes flesh his strength,
Whose heart departs from the Lord.


Does God now share His glory with the medical system?

Isaiah 42:8

New King James Version (NKJV)

8 I am the Lord, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another,
Nor My praise to carved images.

I don't subscribe to the belief that all medical professionals are involved in an occult based system. You have the right to not make use of the medical profession or to have faith in such the system, but do not attempt to put me or anyone else down because we do not view it the same as you. We have choice/ free will as well.

Free will is really nothing more than how one chooses to disobey Jesus. We are His, bought and paid for. Is this not true?
Romans 12:1-2

New King James Version (NKJV)
12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Who is a believer "presenting their body" to when they go to the medical system?
There is no need to feel condemned. Here is why:
Romans 8:1

New King James Version (NKJV)



8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.