What happens at the end when Christ comes.

[n2thelight]

Matthew 24:21,22 and Mark 13:19,20 (Jesus speaking) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved (survive); but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.

How can there be THE ELECT during this time IF they went in THE RAPTURE?


Was Job raptured out of his time of tribulation (testing)? NO

Was Joseph raptured out of the pit or prison? NO

Was Daniel raptured out of the lion's den? NO

Was King David raptured out of all his tribulation? NO

Exodus 7:18 through 12:30 records the Israelites were IN Egypt for all ten plagues of God's wrath.

Was Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego raptured out of the firery furnace? NO

Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO

Was Paul raptured out of all his tribulations (2 Corithians 11:23-27)? NO

NO RAPTURE, JUST MUCH TRIBULATION

Christ told His disicples that there would be tribulations up until the time of His return....

 

[adam332]

Matthew 24:21,22 and Mark 13:19,20 (Jesus speaking) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved (survive); but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.

How can there be THE ELECT during this time IF they went in THE RAPTURE?


Was Job raptured out of his time of tribulation (testing)? NO

Was Joseph raptured out of the pit or prison? NO

Was Daniel raptured out of the lion's den? NO

Was King David raptured out of all his tribulation? NO

Exodus 7:18 through 12:30 records the Israelites were IN Egypt for all ten plagues of God's wrath.

Was Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego raptured out of the firery furnace? NO

Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO

Was Paul raptured out of all his tribulations (2 Corithians 11:23-27)? NO

NO RAPTURE, JUST MUCH TRIBULATION

Christ told His disicples that there would be tribulations up until the time of His return....

Well put.
I would have to add that Noah and his family were saved and everyone else died.
Everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah died, Lot's family survived.
Etc...

 

[n2thelight]

Acts 3:21 says that Jesus must remain in heaven until it is time for Him to restore everything. Which I see happening at the end of the Daniel’s Seventy Weeks. So, how does He get out of heaven before the tribulation period to Rapture the Church?â€

Richard Perry

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Christ must remain in heaven until the times of restitution of all things. The "restitution of all things" is "Apokatastasis" in the Greek, and means the re-establishment of all things from a state of ruin. All the prophets have talked of this time of the Millennium since this world age begin.

So,I would also like to know, how does He get out of heaven before the tribulation period to Rapture the Church?â€

 

[veteran]

Let's see what new single verses Coop is quoting out of Biblical context to try and prove his theories.

Hebrews 9:28, think I've already been over that one...

Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(KJV)

The time when our Lord Jesus was "once offered to bear the sins of many" was His first coming to die on the cross. The word "many" is used because His death on the cross is only for those who believe on Him. His appearance "the second time without sin unto salvation" is for His future second coming and our gathering to Him, which involves the resurrection. Got it? First coming, second coming. One, two. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

All that's declaring is that those who believe on our Saviour Jesus Christ look for His second coming. And those who remain in Him to the end will appear with Him without sin unto Salvation. That's is not showing a pre-trib rapture, nor a mid-trib rapture. Instead, it's about the one and only return of our Lord Jesus after the tribulation like He showed in Matt.24. There's another version of that Hebrew 9:28 verse given in Philippians...

Phil 3:20-21
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.
(KJV)

That's about the resurrection body, the bodies we have now being changed and fashioned like His glorious body. AND WHEN does that happen folks? At Christ's coming on the "last trump" of 1 Cor.15, the "trump of God" of 1 Thess.4:16. That's what Paul is talking about in Hebrews 9:28 of what it means to look for His second coming. It's because that's when the resurrection of 1 Cor.15 happens. And with that redemption of our bodies at Christ's coming through the resurrection, that's also how we will appear without sin unto His Salvation. That's one of the main reasons we await and look for Christ's return, which is what Christ appearing a second time is about.

And to top that idea off, there's an Old Testament witness to that looking and waiting for Christ and the redemption of our body at His second coming...

Isa 25:8-9
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
(KJV)

This even speaks of the idea of 'waiting' for His return, waiting for our redemption through Him, like Paul also showed in Romans 8 and Hebrews 9:28. These Scriptures are very simple if only read with common sense. The only 'when' pointer in them is without sin unto salvation, which is about the resurrection timing. And that means we have to recall Scripture of what happens with the "last trump", the 7th of Revelation 11:15 forward, and after the tribulation per our Lord in Matt.24.

With the 144,000 matter, those of Rev.20:4 are those 144,000 and the great multitude of Rev.7:9 forward that appear before Christ's Throne unto Salvation, being made kings and priests at His second coming, and ruling with Him over the nations with a rod of iron during the "thousand years" of Rev.20. And of course, that Rev.20:4 group includes the Old Testament saints that have believed on Christ too. That great multitude of believers came out of tribulation per Rev.7:9 forward, and overcame. That 144,000 of Rev.15 also are shown having gone through the tribulation with overcoming the beast and his mark.

So why can't some people understand from our Lord's warning in Rev.14:9-10, that for those living in the end of days, to be in that group which appear before Christ's Throne that have come out of great tribulation, and overcame the beast, his mark, his image, and name, is to have likewise with them gone through the tribulation like they did?

Now we come to another verse Coop shows his lack of Biblical knowledge about, that of a Message our Lord gave to the angel of the Church of Thyatira starting in Rev.2:18 forward. It's VERY important to remember at the end of Rev.1 our Lord said the seven candlesticks are... the seven Churches. Our Lord Jesus even said to the Church at Ephesus that He would remove their candlestick out of its place if they did not repent and make a change. So just where... are those seven candlesticks? They're in Heaven. The seven Churches is about a Heavenly ordered structure, and is linked to the structure given in the Book of Zechariah. What does that mean for today's Churches then?

It means those seven candlesticks are still applicable for today's Churches on earth. Do you think maybe then, our Lord Jesus was also warning us today what would be going on in today's Churches with those Messages He sent via seven angels to those seven historical Churches? There shouldn't be any doubt that is so, even all the way... to the end of this world. Rev.11 even gives two candlesticks within a description of God's two witnesses that make a stand on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period for 1260 days, which is tribulation timing leading up to Christ's return on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe.

What does that represent for the other five candlesticks (Churches) during that tribulation timing? What will they be doing in that time on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period? Per the Messages our Lord Jesus gave to the seven historical Churches, only two Churches He had no rebuke for (Smyrna and Philadelphia). That's why only two candlesticks will make a stand during the tribulation along with God's two witnesses. The rest will be deceived and have problems like five Churches did historically per Rev.2 & 3. Which Church will you be in during the tribulation? Is your Church preparing you to make a stand with God's two witnesses during the tribulation? Or is your Church telling you not to worry, you're gonna' be raptured out of here before that time, because Christ has not appointed you to wrath?

 

[lecoop]

Let's see what new single verses Coop is quoting out of Biblical context to try and prove his theories.

Hebrews 9:28, think I've already been over that one...

Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(KJV)

The time when our Lord Jesus was "once offered to bear the sins of many" was His first coming to die on the cross. The word "many" is used because His death on the cross is only for those who believe on Him. His appearance "the second time without sin unto salvation" is for His future second coming and our gathering to Him, which involves the resurrection. Got it? First coming, second coming. One, two. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

All that's declaring is that those who believe on our Saviour Jesus Christ look for His second coming. And those who remain in Him to the end will appear with Him without sin unto Salvation. That's is not showing a pre-trib rapture, nor a mid-trib rapture. Instead, it's about the one and only return of our Lord Jesus after the tribulation like He showed in Matt.24. There's another version of that Hebrew 9:28 verse given in Philippians...

Phil 3:20-21
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.
(KJV)

That's about the resurrection body, the bodies we have now being changed and fashioned like His glorious body. AND WHEN does that happen folks? At Christ's coming on the "last trump" of 1 Cor.15, the "trump of God" of 1 Thess.4:16. That's what Paul is talking about in Hebrews 9:28 of what it means to look for His second coming. It's because that's when the resurrection of 1 Cor.15 happens. And with that redemption of our bodies at Christ's coming through the resurrection, that's also how we will appear without sin unto His Salvation. That's one of the main reasons we await and look for Christ's return, which is what Christ appearing a second time is about.

And to top that idea off, there's an Old Testament witness to that looking and waiting for Christ and the redemption of our body at His second coming...

Isa 25:8-9
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
(KJV)

This even speaks of the idea of 'waiting' for His return, waiting for our redemption through Him, like Paul also showed in Romans 8 and Hebrews 9:28. These Scriptures are very simple if only read with common sense. The only 'when' pointer in them is without sin unto salvation, which is about the resurrection timing. And that means we have to recall Scripture of what happens with the "last trump", the 7th of Revelation 11:15 forward, and after the tribulation per our Lord in Matt.24.

With the 144,000 matter, those of Rev.20:4 are those 144,000 and the great multitude of Rev.7:9 forward that appear before Christ's Throne unto Salvation, being made kings and priests at His second coming, and ruling with Him over the nations with a rod of iron during the "thousand years" of Rev.20. And of course, that Rev.20:4 group includes the Old Testament saints that have believed on Christ too. That great multitude of believers came out of tribulation per Rev.7:9 forward, and overcame. That 144,000 of Rev.15 also are shown having gone through the tribulation with overcoming the beast and his mark.

So why can't some people understand from our Lord's warning in Rev.14:9-10, that for those living in the end of days, to be in that group which appear before Christ's Throne that have come out of great tribulation, and overcame the beast, his mark, his image, and name, is to have likewise with them gone through the tribulation like they did?

Now we come to another verse Coop shows his lack of Biblical knowledge about, that of a Message our Lord gave to the angel of the Church of Thyatira starting in Rev.2:18 forward. It's VERY important to remember at the end of Rev.1 our Lord said the seven candlesticks are... the seven Churches. Our Lord Jesus even said to the Church at Ephesus that He would remove their candlestick out of its place if they did not repent and make a change. So just where... are those seven candlesticks? They're in Heaven. The seven Churches is about a Heavenly ordered structure, and is linked to the structure given in the Book of Zechariah. What does that mean for today's Churches then?

It means those seven candlesticks are still applicable for today's Churches on earth. Do you think maybe then, our Lord Jesus was also warning us today what would be going on in today's Churches with those Messages He sent via seven angels to those seven historical Churches? There shouldn't be any doubt that is so, even all the way... to the end of this world. Rev.11 even gives two candlesticks within a description of God's two witnesses that make a stand on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period for 1260 days, which is tribulation timing leading up to Christ's return on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe.

What does that represent for the other five candlesticks (Churches) during that tribulation timing? What will they be doing in that time on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period? Per the Messages our Lord Jesus gave to the seven historical Churches, only two Churches He had no rebuke for (Smyrna and Philadelphia). That's why only two candlesticks will make a stand during the tribulation along with God's two witnesses. The rest will be deceived and have problems like five Churches did historically per Rev.2 & 3. Which Church will you be in during the tribulation? Is your Church preparing you to make a stand with God's two witnesses during the tribulation? Or is your Church telling you not to worry, you're gonna' be raptured out of here before that time, because Christ has not appointed you to wrath?

It is simply amazing how Veteran ignores the simple wording of scripture in preference to his theories.

Rev 2
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Jesus was pointing out ONE specific individual of that church, who called herself a prophetess. She was seducing the men in that church to commit fornication. That was for that woman and those men of the church of 95 AD. Notice WHO was to be thrown into great tribulation: "I will cast her;" so God was speaking directly to her, this prophetess, and the men that committed fornication with her. Could one even think that when this letter arrived none in the church ever heard of a lady named Jezebel? If so, it would destroy their faith in the entire rest of the book. No, we can be SURE that when this letter was read, there WAS a lady named Jezebel in that church. I suspect she was throw out!

Now I can guess that Veteran will spiritualize this and make it say something different. But the truth is, each of these letter HAD TO HAVE meaning to those original readers. And in this case, it surely had meaning for Jezebel and those men getting into bed with her. So either words have meaning, or we spiritualize the entire book as preterists do, and the entire book become meaningless.

Now let's look again:

Young's Literal Translation
9:28 so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him -- to salvation!

Weymouth New Testament
9:28 so the Christ also, having been once offered in sacrifice in order that He might bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, separated from sin, to those who are eagerly expecting Him, to make their salvation complete

Noah Webster Bible
9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and to them that look for him he will appear the second time without sin to salvation.

Douay Rheims
9:28 So also Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; the second time he shall appear without sin to them that expect him unto salvation.

American Standard Version
9:28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

English Revised Version
9:28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

Wesley's New Testament
9:28 So Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, will appear the second time, without sin, to them that look for him, unto salvation.

The Geneva Bible
9:28 So Christ was once offered to take away the sinnes of many, and vnto them that looke for him, shall he appeare the second time without sinne vnto saluation.

The Bishop's Bible
9:28 Euen so, Christe once offered to take away the sinnes of many, the seconde time shalbe seene without sinne, of them which wayte for hym vnto saluation.

Miles Coverdale Bible
9:28 so Christ was once offred, to take awaye the synnes of many. And vnto them that loke for him, shal he appeare agayne without synne vnto saluacion.

Tyndale
9:28 so Christ was once offered to take awaye the synnes of many and vnto them that loke for him shall he appeare agayne without synne vnto saluacion.

The Wycliffe Bible
9:28 onys to die, but aftir this is the dom, so Crist was offrid onys, to auoyde the synnes of many men; the secounde tyme he schal appere with outen synne to men that abiden him in to heelthe.

Hebrew Names VErsion
9:28 so Messiah also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation.

J.B. Rotherham Emphasized Bible
9:28 Thus, the Christ also, once for all having been offered, for the bearing of the sins, of many, a second time, apart from sin, will appear, to them who for him are ardently waiting - unto salvation.

If one will read this without preconceived glasses, the meaning is clear; He is going to appear ONLY to those that are looking for him. None of these use the word only, but that is the intent of the wording. In other words, He will NOT APPEAR to those NOT looking for Him.

Now compare this idea, as seen in all these different translations, with this:

1 Thes 4
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Be honest with this verse: WHO sees Him here? it should be obvious that it is ONLY those that are caught up into the clouds WITH HIM. There is not even one tiny hint in this verse that the entire world sees His coming. And there is a STRONG HINT that only those that are caught up will see Him. So this verse fits PERFECTLY with Heb. 9:28

Now compare with this verse:

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Notice that not only "every eye" but included are those that pierced Him. Will "they also which pierced him" be caught up into the air and in the clouds to see Him then? No, ONLY those "In Christ" are caught up into the clouds.

Therefore, God speaks of TWO separate comings; one ONLY to the air, where He is hidden from the world, and ONLY those caught up see Him.

Coop

 

[adam332]

Therefore, when John gets to chapter 19, is there any lack of people in heaven? In fact, there is TOO MANY to count! Does not John confirm this?

Rev 19
Revelation 19
1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Coop

You seem to not be familiar with the Greek phrases being used in this passage.
The word "people" in verse 1 is the same word as "multitude" in verse 6.

This matters, because the owner of the "voice of a multitude", "the voice of many waters", and "the voice of mighty thunderings" has already been identified throughout the Bible.

Dan. 10:6 "...HIS eyes as lamps of fire, and...HIS feet like in colour to polished brass, and the VOICE of HIS words like the VOICE OF A MULTITUDE.

Daniel identifies this person as having "brass" feet, and "fire" in His eye’s.
And Revelation in turn, identifies the exact owner of the person with such traits.

Rev. 2:18 "...the SON OF GOD, who hath his EYES like...FIRE, and his FEET [are] like fine BRASS;"

Rev. 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and HIS VOICE as the sound OF MANY WATERS.

Jer. 10:13 When he uttereth HIS VOICE, [there is] a MULTITUDE OF WATERS in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

Jer. 51:16 When he uttereth [HIS] VOICE, [there is] a MULTITUDE OF WATERS in the heavens; and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth: he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

Eze. 1:24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise OF GREAT WATERS, as THE VOICE OF the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.

Eze. 43:2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and HIS VOICE [was] like a noise OF MANY WATERS: and the earth shined with his glory.

Rev. 14:2 And I heard a VOICE FROM HEAVEN, as the VOICE OF MANY WATERS, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

As you can see there is no doubt, the voice does not come from "people". That was a plain translation error. The word "multitude" should have been used like it does in all the other places. The owner of the voice belongs to "the Son of God".

Not trying to debunk the rest of your belief. I just wanted to make sure you knew that John had already identified who voice this was and it not literal people at all. Sorry.

 

[lecoop]

Therefore, when John gets to chapter 19, is there any lack of people in heaven? In fact, there is TOO MANY to count! Does not John confirm this?

Rev 19
Revelation 19
1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Coop

You seem to not be familiar with the Greek phrases being used in this passage.
The word "people" in verse 1 is the same word as "multitude" in verse 6.

This matters, because the owner of the "voice of a multitude", "the voice of many waters", and "the voice of mighty thunderings" has already been identified throughout the Bible.

Dan. 10:6 "...HIS eyes as lamps of fire, and...HIS feet like in colour to polished brass, and the VOICE of HIS words like the VOICE OF A MULTITUDE.

Daniel identifies this person as having "brass" feet, and "fire" in His eye’s.
And Revelation in turn, identifies the exact owner of the person with such traits.

Rev. 2:18 "...the SON OF GOD, who hath his EYES like...FIRE, and his FEET [are] like fine BRASS;"

Rev. 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and HIS VOICE as the sound OF MANY WATERS.

Jer. 10:13 When he uttereth HIS VOICE, [there is] a MULTITUDE OF WATERS in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

Jer. 51:16 When he uttereth [HIS] VOICE, [there is] a MULTITUDE OF WATERS in the heavens; and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth: he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

Eze. 1:24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise OF GREAT WATERS, as THE VOICE OF the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.

Eze. 43:2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and HIS VOICE [was] like a noise OF MANY WATERS: and the earth shined with his glory.

Rev. 14:2 And I heard a VOICE FROM HEAVEN, as the VOICE OF MANY WATERS, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

As you can see there is no doubt, the voice does not come from "people". That was a plain translation error. The word "multitude" should have been used like it does in all the other places. The owner of the voice belongs to "the Son of God".

Not trying to debunk the rest of your belief. I just wanted to make sure you knew that John had already identified who voice this was and it not literal people at all. Sorry.

You have GOT to be kidding me! Because God's voice can SOUND like a great multitude, then John is prevented from ever saying he HEARD the sound of a great multitude - many people? What kind of new exegesis is this?

ochlos = much people
1) a crowd

a) a casual collection of people

1) a multitude of men who have flocked together in some place

2) a throng

b) a multitude

1) the common people, as opposed to the rulers and leading men

2) with contempt: the ignorant multitude, the populace

c) a multitude

1) the multitudes, seems to denote troops of people gathered together without order
(Thayers)

John does not say he heard a voice LIKE the sound of a great multitude: no, he hear the sound OF a great multitude.

What does John say in the previous chapter?

Rev. 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Now John is hearing that very thing.

Jamieson, Fausset & Brown
Rev 19:1-21 . THE CHURCH'S THANKSGIVING IN HEAVEN FOR THE JUDGMENT ON THE HARLOT. THE MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB: THE SUPPER: THE BRIDE'S PREPARATION: JOHN IS FORBIDDEN TO WORSHIP THE ANGEL: THE LORD AND HIS HOSTS COME FORTH FOR WAR: THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE: THE KINGS AND THEIR FOLLOWERS SLAIN BY THE SWORD OUT OF CHRIST'S MOUTH.

John Brown commentary
A. Verse 1 contains the famous HALLELUJAH CHORUS!

1. As the "great multitude" in heaven break out in praise to the Lord!

2. The word hallelujah is a combination of hallal = "praise", and yah = short for "Jehovah".

a) So the meaning is actually "praise ye the Lord".

B. In the New Testament, it occurs only in this chapter and is used 4 times in verses 1 through 6!!!

1. The saints have already praised Him for creation (in Revelation 4:11, and for redemption (in Revelation 5:12,13).

2. Now they praise Him for salvation, and ascribe glory and honor, and power to His name!

Sorry, I simply don't believe what you wrote. This is the voice of many people this time. Plain and simple.

Coop

 

[adam332]

Please compare;
Rev. 19:1 ....a great voice of MUCH[4183] PEOPLE[3793]...

Rev. 19:6 ...the voice of a GREAT[4183] MULTITUDE[3793], and as the VOICE of MANY[4183] WATERS[5204], and as the VOICE of MIGHTY THUNDERINGS...

Rev. 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and HIS VOICE as the sound OF MANY[4183] WATERS[5204]

Rev. 14:2 And I heard a VOICE FROM HEAVEN, as the VOICE OF MANY[4183] WATERS[5204], and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

He uses the same exact phrases and we positively know who is talking in his other three examples.

The only voice in heaven that any author records as; the voice of a multitude, the voice of a many waters, the voice of thunders, etc is always God.

Never did a voice come from heaven with that description and speak of people. So my logic is perfectly sound and backed by every verse using the same images.

You either payed no attention to the clear identification all the authors give to this voice, or you are so desperate to cling onto this passage you are refusing to see it. Show me the flaw in my reasoning instead of just telling me I'm wrong. There are a lot of passages you have to contend with. I didn't write them John and the others did.

Proving why this verse should stand alone, amidst all the conflicting scripture is something you are gonna' have to reconcile.

 

[lecoop]

Please compare;
Rev. 19:1 ....a great voice of MUCH[4183] PEOPLE[3793]...

Rev. 19:6 ...the voice of a GREAT[4183] MULTITUDE[3793], and as the VOICE of MANY[4183] WATERS[5204], and as the VOICE of MIGHTY THUNDERINGS...

Rev. 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and HIS VOICE as the sound OF MANY[4183] WATERS[5204]

Rev. 14:2 And I heard a VOICE FROM HEAVEN, as the VOICE OF MANY[4183] WATERS[5204], and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

He uses the same exact phrases and we positively know who is talking in his other three examples.

The only voice in heaven that any author records as; the voice of a multitude, the voice of a many waters, the voice of thunders, etc is always God.

Never did a voice come from heaven with that description and speak of people. So my logic is perfectly sound and backed by every verse using the same images.

You either payed no attention to the clear identification all the authors give to this voice, or you are so desperate to cling onto this passage you are refusing to see it. Show me the flaw in my reasoning instead of just telling me I'm wrong. There are a lot of passages you have to contend with. I didn't write them John and the others did.

Proving why this verse should stand alone, amidst all the conflicting scripture is something you are gonna' have to reconcile.

So in your mind, even it John saw a great multitude praising God, and he wrote what he saw, you could not believe it, because God too, has a voice that SOUNDS like a multitude of people. In other words, God's voice has blinded your ability to understand that a huge multitude also has a voice. Sorry, I don't contend with any of your verses; I simply take them for what they say. But, I will give you this: I did not pay close attention to the "as it were." John did not see a great multitude, he only heard. I understand what you are saying now. The "as it were" is quite like the "as" or "like" in other verses. But is it the same? We must take the context.


Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice 5456 of much people 3793 in heaven , saying , Alleluia ; Salvation , and glory , and honour , and power , unto the Lord our God:
rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

In verse 1, WHO is the voice? It is of "much people." WHAT is said? "Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: " Clearly this is NOT the voice of God. Verse 2 also proves it is NOT the voice of God. In verse 3, WHO said? "they said." They refers right back to "much people." In verse 4, WHO speaks? "the four and twenty elders and the four beasts." In verse 5, WHO speaks? "a voice came out of the throne." This is undoubtedly God's voice. WHAT does God say?
"Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great." So God is commanding his SERVANTS and those that FEAR HIM to praise. Now, WHAT HAPPENS in the very next verse? What would you EXPECT to happen, after what God has just said?

"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."

So WHY put any kind of a spin on what is written? It is just exactly what John writes: it is the voice of a great multitude. God told them to praise Him, and they did. Since John did not SEE the multitude, he included the "as it were." But verse one confirms that there WAS a great multitude there. So no need for any kind of spin. Again, if a begining reader read it, they would say it was the voice of a multitude. The beginning reader is almost always right.

Now, lets look closely at your exegesis:

Dan. 10:6 "...HIS eyes as lamps of fire, and...HIS feet like in colour to polished brass, and the VOICE of HIS words like the VOICE OF A MULTITUDE.

Daniel identifies this person as having "brass" feet, and "fire" in His eye’s.
And Revelation in turn, identifies the exact owner of the person with such traits.

It certainly does NOT SAY that this being has brass feet. What is says are that his feet LIKE IN COLOR to polished brass. There is a HUGE difference. It DOES NOT say there is fire in his eyes. What is says is that his eyes AS lamps of fire. There is a HUGE difference.

Rev. 2:18 "...the SON OF GOD, who hath his EYES like...FIRE, and his FEET [are] like fine BRASS;"
Rev. 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and HIS VOICE as the sound OF MANY WATERS.

Here we must pay close attention to EVERY WORD. His eyes are not fire, they are LIKE fire (in appearance). His feet are not brass, they are LIKE brass (in appearance). His voice is not the voice of many waters, it is AS (in sound) the voice of many waters.

Just so we KNOW these words were actually a part of the Greek:
omoioi
homoioi
G3664
a_ Nom Pl m
LIKE

ws
hOs
G5613
Adv
AS

Rev. 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

ws
hOs
G5613
Adv
AS

Unfortunately, the Hebrew is not as precise as the Greek. I cannot do this same thing with Hebrew.

I just cannot agree with you. I am convinced this was the voice of a great multitude. The context proves it.

Coop

 

[adam332]

Nothing you wrote showed anything you claimed . Every single time a voice from heaven was called "voice of a multitude", voice of many waters, voice of thunderings, etc... it was always God. I'm sorry if that upsets you.

Stop acting like it's my idea, when it was John identified Him and used the same exact phrases, over and over. And blame the other authors for confirming John. Show how this one passage stands alone with a different identity. Contend with all the passages that have already identified the voice and please stop trying to blame me like I wrote them. I just simply pointed them out to you.

What do you want me to do.... act like the prophets haven't already identified the owner of this voice? I can't unread what they've already confirmed.

 

[adam332]

Here we must pay close attention to EVERY WORD. His eyes are not fire, they are LIKE fire (in appearance). His feet are not brass, they are LIKE brass (in appearance). His voice is not the voice of many waters, it is AS (in sound) the voice of many waters.

Apply this concept to yourself...
Rev. 19:6 And I heard AS IT WERE the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

So was it, or wasn't it a literal multitude?

Applying your logic here make it seem as if the voice simply sounds like a multitude, but is not a literal one, or not literal waters, or not literal thunders. It just sounded like these things.

I'm glad you pointed that out.... see your own study revealed it isn't a literal multitude. Good for you, it was right there the whole time I'm so happy that you can see it now.

 

[lecoop]

Nothing you wrote showed anything you claimed . Every single time a voice from heaven was called "voice of a multitude", voice of many waters, voice of thunderings, etc... it was always God. I'm sorry if that upsets you.

Stop acting like it's my idea, when it was John identified Him and used the same exact phrases, over and over. And blame the other authors for confirming John. Show how this one passage stands alone with a different identity. Contend with all the passages that have already identified the voice and please stop trying to blame me like I wrote them. I just simply pointed them out to you.

What do you want me to do.... act like the prophets haven't already identified the owner of this voice? I can't unread what they've already confirmed.

All I asking is: can you read simple English?

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven , saying , Alleluia ; Salvation , and glory , and honour , and power , unto the Lord our God:
rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Here is a voice of much people. I say this is a multitude of people, but you say it is God.

It is VERY EASY to prove one way or another: see what the voice says:

Alleluia; Does God say: "Alleluia?"

"Salvation , and glory , and honour , and power , unto the Lord our God" Does God say this or do people say this ABOUT God?

"For true and righteous are his judgments" Does God use the word "His" in reference to Himself, or do PEOPLE use "His" as a pronoun for God?

"for he hath judged the great whore" Does God use "He" in reference to Himself, or do PEOPLE use the pronoun "He" in reference to God?

If you still insist that this "great voice" of "much people" is the voice of God, then there is simply no help for you; you have preconceived glassed glued to your eyes, and they are not coming off for anything.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Here we must pay close attention to EVERY WORD. His eyes are not fire, they are LIKE fire (in appearance). His feet are not brass, they are LIKE brass (in appearance). His voice is not the voice of many waters, it is AS (in sound) the voice of many waters.

Apply this concept to yourself...
Rev. 19:6 And I heard AS IT WERE the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

So was it, or wasn't it a literal multitude?

Applying your logic here make it seem as if the voice simply sounds like a multitude, but is not a literal one, or not literal waters, or not literal thunders. It just sounded like these things.

I'm glad you pointed that out.... see your own study revealed it isn't a literal multitude. Good for you, it was right there the whole time I'm so happy that you can see it now.

John did not see the great multitude, so he included "as it were." But again,the context PROVES it is a great multitude. Verse 1 proves it is a great multitude, and verse 2 confirms it. Can you possibly understand that millions of people do make the sound of a great multitude? Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

Coop

 

[adam332]

Here we must pay close attention to EVERY WORD. His eyes are not fire, they are LIKE fire (in appearance). His feet are not brass, they are LIKE brass (in appearance). His voice is not the voice of many waters, it is AS (in sound) the voice of many waters.

Apply this concept to yourself...
Rev. 19:6 And I heard AS IT WERE the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

So was it, or wasn't it a literal multitude?

Applying your logic here make it seem as if the voice simply sounds like a multitude, but is not a literal one, or not literal waters, or not literal thunders. It just sounded like these things.

I'm glad you pointed that out.... see your own study revealed it isn't a literal multitude. Good for you, it was right there the whole time I'm so happy that you can see it now.

John did not see the great multitude, so he included "as it were." But again,the context PROVES it is a great multitude. Verse 1 proves it is a great multitude, and verse 2 confirms it. Can you possibly understand that millions of people do make the sound of a great multitude? Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

Coop

You are kidding me, in your earlier post you applied it the same exact way I did. It was not literal when you tried to apply it in chp 14, but in chp 19 you want it to be literal so you now interpret the opposite way. How convenient. You proved my point for me and now you are trying to back track and talk your way out.

 

[lecoop]

Apply this concept to yourself...
Rev. 19:6 And I heard AS IT WERE the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

So was it, or wasn't it a literal multitude?

Applying your logic here make it seem as if the voice simply sounds like a multitude, but is not a literal one, or not literal waters, or not literal thunders. It just sounded like these things.

I'm glad you pointed that out.... see your own study revealed it isn't a literal multitude. Good for you, it was right there the whole time I'm so happy that you can see it now.

John did not see the great multitude, so he included "as it were." But again,the context PROVES it is a great multitude. Verse 1 proves it is a great multitude, and verse 2 confirms it. Can you possibly understand that millions of people do make the sound of a great multitude? Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?

Coop

You are kidding me, in your earlier post you applied it the same exact way I did. It was not literal when you tried to apply it in chp 14, but in chp 19 you want it to be literal so you now interpret the opposite way. How convenient. You proved my point for me and now you are trying to back track and talk your way out.

Absolutely not true! I have known all along and said all along, it was the voice of a great multitude. All I was saying is, I finally see why you might think it was not. But the bottom line, is, the context PROVES beyond any doubt that this is the voice of a multitude of people, NOT the voice of God.

However, I am quite sure you will continue to read with preconceived glasses, and totally ignore the context. Perhaps English 101 - a refresher course, to learn the difference between first person and second person would be in order.

Here is a good example of first person:

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Here is a good example of second person:

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Rev 19:1 (First person)
1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia...

Rev 19:2 (Second person)
2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Sorry, but God does not speak in second person. Other speak OF HIM in second person.

Coop

 

[veteran]

Let's what else. I see coop is still on the historical case of Jezebel, disregarding that our Lord's Messages to the seven Churches ALSO involve seven candlesticks in Heaven that serves as a blueprint for all future Churches on earth too. Jezebel's works in the Church of Thyatira was history. But wasn't there also a Jezebel idol worshipper of OT times that worshipped Baal and sought to kill all of God's prophets including Elijah? Yes, and she was the wife of Ahab king of Israel. No doubt the Jezebel of OT times served as blueprint to those then in the Church at Thyatira. Those Messages in Rev.2 & 3 are both historical and examples for future Churches in general. Can some be so daft to not realize that Christ gave those Messages to those of us later who go through the end times?

Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.(KJV)

Rev 11:4
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
(KJV)

Wait a minute now, why does our Lord Jesus declare these "two candlesticks" here within the description of God's two witnesses? Those events are given during tribulation timing, for we're shown those two witnesses are to prophesy for 1260 days, be killed, and then Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet happens 3 and 1/2 days after their murder.

Have God's two witnesses appeared on earth yet per history? No, not yet, not even to our time yet. Their appearance in Jerusalem is still expecting today. So why whould those "two candlesticks" be mentioned in that time along with God's future two witnesses; especially if those seven candlesticks (seven Churches) was only about those seven historical Churches of Rev.2 & 3?

That reveals those seven candlesticks are STILL in place today, even all the way to the end when Christ returns on the 7th trumpet of Rev.11. Does that mean there must be Churches on earth today too for those seven candlesticks to represent? YES! Otherwise, why did our Lord declare those two candlesticks along with the two witnesses who will prophesy during the tribulation for 1260 days?

Now of course that Rev.11:4 evidence of "two candleticks" being mentioned existing on earth with God's two witnesses during that 1260 days, which is great tribualtion timing, that's like a bitter pill for those on the false Pre-trib secret rapture or even Mid-trib rapture theory. Naturally those are not gonna' want to admit the seven candlesticks represent the Churches all the way to the end. And they definitely don't want to admit that "two candlesticks" (two Churches) are there going through the tribulation along with God's two witnesses. That would prove their pre-trib or mid-trib rapture theories are wrong, now wouldn't it?