What happens at the end when Christ comes.

[Hobie]

Well many people pick up and give all kinds of unsupported ideas, or false doctrines such as the rapture or seven year tribulation . . . So what does scripture say events of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. We have to see what scripture tells us about Christs Second Coming, and understand how and what will occur which false christs and charlatans will not be able to do or recreate, which doctrines such as the 'secret rapture' and others open up and are just diversions for true christians. People will be confronts by turmoil and then someone comes and tells them the seven years are over and they are 'the christ' or that the rapture has happened with no evidence needed as it is a twisting of scripture and present themselves as a the 'messiah' at Jerusalem and urge people to come worship him. Scripture shows us what the true events of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will be, if we search and see what scripture says, the Holy Spirit can do its work in guiding to truth. The return of Christ or His second coming to this earth is the event that will finally release the people of God from evil, and scripture outlines it for us. So what does it say of how Christ will return:

And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they were looking steadfastly toward Heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, 'Ye men of Galilee; why stand ye gazing up into Heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into Heaven'.Acts 1:9-l l.

In the Clouds Together With His Angels:

Jesus was taken up into heaven by a cloud, and He will return in the clouds. The clouds refer to the angels of God that surround Him as can be seen in Hebrew parallelism.

The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels; the Lord is among them, as is Sinai, in the holy place. Psalm 68:17

...who maketh the clouds his chariots; who walketh upon the wings of the wind. Psalm 104:3

Jesus Himself promised that He would return with the clouds (the angels).

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Matthew 24:30

...the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels. 2 Thessalonians 1:7

When the Son of man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.Matthew 25:31

The glory of Christ's coming surpasses anything we can imagine. He will return in the glory of His angels, and that of the Godhead:

...when He shall come in His own glory, and in His Father's and of the holy angels. Luke 9:26

The Second Coming Will be Universally Visible:

Behold He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him... Revelation 1:7

Christ warned against false comings of Christ that would not be universally visible.

Wherefore, if they shall say unto you, Behold he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.Matthew 24:26,27

...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30

The Second Coming Will be Audible:

And he shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other.Matthew 24:31

The Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God... I Thessalonians 4:16

The Lord Will Not Come Down to the Earth, But Will Await the Redeemed in the Sky:

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:16,17

The Saints will be gathered together by angels and taken up into the air to meet the Lord in the sky. This is not a secret rapture as some believe.

And He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matthew 24:31

At the second coming, Christ calls forth the dead and sends forth His angels to gather the elect, and together they meet Him in the air. Christ Himself does not come down to the earth - His feet do not touch the earth. His command to His angels is:

Gather my saints together unto me, those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.Psalm 50:5

So if we study and see what scripture tells us about Christs Second Coming, and understand how and what will occur, Satan will not be able to fool us not matter what he tries, and we will be prepared for Christ.

 

[John]

false doctrines such as the rapture or seven year tribulation .

Your stepping on a lot of toes with that one.

 

[Hobie]

So what about the seven years of tribulation, well Christ tells us the events and their will be many signs and turmoil but if there had been a seven years of tribulation, such an event must have been shown by Christ, so lets look:
Matthew 24:3
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time. 26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Seems like the seven years of tribulation was overlooked, so lets go back to Daniel and look at what people have picked up verses what it actually says. There are many theories out there in regards to the 70th Week of the Daniel 9 prophecy. The most prevalent one talks about a 7-year tribulation just prior to Christ's second coming. Many believers in the 7-year Tribulation don't know that this belief is rooted in the Daniel 9 prophecy. In fact, one of the most important verses used to support this idea is Dan 9:27, which we will look at along with the entire prophecy. Also, it is from Dan 9:27 that the belief in "The Antichrist" and the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple on the temple mount comes from. The series of events outlined in this theory is that 1) there will be a secret rapture that takes all true Christians away leaving others behind, 2) then a 7-year tribulation occurs where those who were not taken in the secret rapture will get a chance to "clean up their act" so that when Christ's public appearance happens they can be judged worthy, 3) during the course of the 7-year tribulation the Antichrist will appear, make a covenant with the Jewish nation, then break that covenant in the middle of the 7 years, then he’ll walk inside the Jewish temple and declare himself to be God. But is this theory biblically accurate?

First, let’s read through the entire prophecy so that we get the whole idea first and then we’ll break it down.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

One thing that must be understood first is the “a day for a year†rule established in Eze 4:6. For every day that is mentioned in this and all other biblical prophecies they are equal to a prophetic year. There is virtually no debate about this point in Christian circles and we’ll find that the rule holds true in this prophecy.

The Timeframe:
The angel Gabriel starts the prophecy by giving a block of time in verse 24, seventy weeks. Seventy weeks is equal to 490 days, or 490 prophetic years. That is our timeframe for this prophecy from beginning to end.

Verse 25 tells us when this timeframe begins, “from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalemâ€. When did this occur? See Ezra 7; for this is the command where the rebuilding of Jerusalem was actually accomplished and that command was given by Artaxerxes, king of Persia; which occurred in 457 BC. There were two other kings that made similar commands to rebuild Jerusalem but those proved to not be fruitful.


This is the total 70-week block given by Gabriel in verses 25 & 27:
Block 1: 7 Weeks - (49 years) - Starts in 457 BC

Block 2: 62 Weeks - (434 years) - Starts in 408 BC

Block 3: 1 week - (7 years) - Starts in 27 AD


Let’s look closely at the last week/ 7-year block (Block 3); for this is the period of time that many think will be the famous “Seven-year Tribulation†of the future:

3 ½ Years + 3 ½ Years = 7 years (one week)
o This block starts in 27 AD. What happened in this year? Christ was baptized, anointed, and started His public ministry.
o The "midst of the week" started in 31 AD (3 ½ years later). What happened in this year? Christ was killed on the cross. (New Covenant confirmed.)
o This block ends in 34 AD. What happened in this year? Stephen, the last disciple to the Jews, was stoned by the Sanhedrin and the Gospel went out to the Gentiles.

So we see that this breakdown perfectly follows the prophecy of Daniel 9 and we find that this prophecy was about the coming Messiah (Jesus Christ); history and later books of the Bible verify this.

Why do people want to put this last week of the 70 at the end times? There is no biblical reason to do so and it breaks the block of time Gabriel started the prophecy with. Let's ask some further important questions;
Is the antichrist mentioned anywhere in Daniel 9:24-27? No. The "he" mentioned in verse 27 is Christ, not Antichrist, for Christ is the focus of the whole prophecy. Also, we find that only Christ makes convenants in the Bible. Is there any mention of a rebuilding of the Jewish temple? No. Any mention of sacrifices being restarted? No. Any mention of a covenant being broken? No. In fact verse 27 says the opposite, that the covenant would be confirmed. So why do people believe this ridiculous theory that there will be a 7-year tribulation at the end of the world?

Here are 10 reasons why the 70th week of Daniel 9 was actually fulfilled by Christ about 2,000 years ago:
1. Verse 24 defines “Seventy weeks†as a single block of time.
2. The 70th week must come after the 69th week; else it can’t really be called the 70th week.
3. It is illogical and unbiblical to move the last week of this prophecy to the end of the world.
4. The focus of the prophecy is on the Messiah, not the antichrist. “Messiah†and “Christ†means “anointed one†– who was anointed during the last “week†of the prophecy? Jesus Christ!
5. Verse 27 says a covenant is “confirmed†in the midst of the week, not broken in the midst of the week. Who creates/confirms covenants in the Bible? Christ only! See Romans 15:8 to see that it was Jesus who “confirmed†the promises made unto the fathers, not antichrist.
6. Verse 27 says “he shall confirm the covenant with manyâ€. Compare this to Matthew 26:28.
7. Verse 27 says “midst of the week†(3 ½ years) the sacrifices would cease. When Christ died the temple veil was “rent†from top to bottom and the Jewish sacrifices ceased. (see Matt 27:51) This was the mark that signified any further sacrifices were of no effect in the sight of God.
8. Verse 27 says “he shall make it desolateâ€. Compare this to Matt 23:38. Who left the temple desolate? Christ!
9. The first 3 ½ years of the 70th week Christ ministered only to the Jews – the second 3 ½ years the disciples ministered to the Jews; thus the 70th week is finished at this point, 34 AD, not a future time.
10. The disciple Stephan was stoned to death by the Sanhedrin in 34 AD which caused the Gospel to go to the Gentiles.

Further, check out Christ’s words in Matthew 18:21. 70x7=490 which is the 490 years of the Daniel 9 prophecy!

The second Jewish temple (Herod’s temple) was destroyed in 70 AD when Jerusalem was ransacked by the Romans under Prince Titus (see Dan 9:26, you’ll see a “prince shall destroy†= Prince Titus). Compare the “desolation†spoken of in Dan 9:27 to the “desolate†of Matt 23:38 & Matt 24:13-16. This is the very sign, the destruction of Jerusalem, that Christ was warning the disciples about (see Luke 21:20-22).

There is no 7-year Tribulation at the end of the world. That teaching comes from a huge mistake resulting in reading much more into a verse than what is actually there. There will be tribulation at the end but it won’t be 7 years long for it falls outside of the Daniel 9 prophecy.

This means that there will be no second chance for salvation as many seem to be counting on. The false 7-year tribulation theory undermines the precept of living by faith for even a non-believer would suddenly change his ways after witnessing millions of people all over the world suddenly vanishing in one day.

So if you read the events given, its clear much of the idea of a secret rapture is not scriptural, as scripture clearly lays out that if will clearly be visible when Christ comes again. Jesus also predicted here that tension between nations would increase prior to the Second Coming.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.Matthew 24:7

The Greek word for nation used here is the word ethnos from which we get the words ethnic group. We can take a look at the news, and there may be talk of peace, but wars and ethnic violence, even so-called ethnic cleansing is rife on a broad scale, not just local events. So what else, Economic woes and labour unrest are foretold for the last days and all we need to do is look at Greece and Europe in the news for that:

Your gold and silver have corroded, and their poison will be a witness against you, and will eat your flesh as fire. You heaped treasure in the last days. Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. James 5:3,4

False religions and false Christs will stake their claims prior to the return of Jesus:

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew. 24:24

The close of the last century saw a resurgence in false Christs. The so-called 'Lord Maitreya' made appearances and others saying they are the 'Messiah' and giving falsehoods in direct contradiction to scriptures, but the world religions are awaiting for someone. Christians hope for the return of the Christ, the Buddhists look for the coming of another Buddha (the Lord Maitreya ), while Muslims await the Imam Mahdi, the Hindus a reincarnation of Krishna, and the Jews the Messiah. so it is not beyond the imagination that a false Christ be easily picked up by them especially if he goes to Jerusalem. So the danger of these false ideas and doctrines is clear, and many people including christians will be deceived because of them.

 

[Hobie]

false doctrines such as the rapture or seven year tribulation .

Your stepping on a lot of toes with that one.

Yes, but when you see how people will be deceived because of these false doctrines and ideas, you have to at least show what the Bible says, and then let the Holy Spirit do its work, we can do no less..

 

[John]

I'll just leave this one alone but state that i do believe in a rapture event sometime in the near future. :yes

 

[Vic C.]

false doctrines such as the rapture or seven year tribulation .

Your stepping on a lot of toes with that one.

Yes, but when you see how people will be deceived because of these false doctrines and ideas, you have to at least show what the Bible says, and then let the Holy Spirit do its work, we can do no less..

Yes, you and I have been on the same page concerning the understanding of Dan. 9 as given to Daniel by Gabriel. :yes Once I started to see it from the Messianic perspective, there was no going back for me.

 

[Hobie]

I'll just leave this one alone but state that i do believe in a rapture event sometime in the near future. :yes

Yes, but for what purpose? If Christ is coming for all the saints at the second coming, what is a 'secret rapture' for, and if no one knows about it, then anyone can says its going on and all other kinds of issues come up. If a religious number of people go missing is that the rapture, or if someone comes and says the rapture has happened because he knows of a reduction in people or group in a certain country, is that the rapture. As you can see, Satan has all kind of oppurtunities open to him to deceive, trick, and bring 'false christs' with all kinds of wonders or come himself and show enough tricks to fool people, and the doctrine of the rapture opens up this avenue, and many sadly will fall for it......

It is a false doctrine that has no reason or purpose as Christ will not come or take the saints in secret, every eye will see him.

 

[veteran]

I'm not part of the pre-trib "secret rapture" crowd, nor a Dispensationalist. But I clearly see the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel refer to a final "one week" period.

Since that 70 weeks prophecy is about the idea of a 7-day week representing a period of 7 years, someone who denies that last "one week" as representing a 7 year period must deny the whole prophecy.

And further, since events given in that final "one week" of Dan.9:27 tie directly to the rest of the Book of Daniel, which in turn links to events of the end our Lord Jesus gave in Matt.24 and Revelation, then I don't see how anyone could miss it's application being for the tribulation timing just prior to Christ's coming.

The idea of that symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27 being about a 7 year period linked to the tribulation did not originate with the pre-trib school, nor with Dispensationalism.

 

[lecoop]

I'm not part of the pre-trib "secret rapture" crowd, nor a Dispensationalist. But I clearly see the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel refer to a final "one week" period.

Since that 70 weeks prophecy is about the idea of a 7-day week representing a period of 7 years, someone who denies that last "one week" as representing a 7 year period must deny the whole prophecy.

And further, since events given in that final "one week" of Dan.9:27 tie directly to the rest of the Book of Daniel, which in turn links to events of the end our Lord Jesus gave in Matt.24 and Revelation, then I don't see how anyone could miss it's application being for the tribulation timing just prior to Christ's coming.

The idea of that symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27 being about a 7 year period linked to the tribulation did not originate with the pre-trib school, nor with Dispensationalism.

I AM of the pretrib rapture school, but here I agree with Veteran: he is dead on. Anyone denying the 70th week will have to tear out Daniel AND Revelation, and of course the Olivet Discourse as seen in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

I'll just leave this one alone but state that i do believe in a rapture event sometime in the near future. :yes

Yes, but for what purpose? If Christ is coming for all the saints at the second coming, what is a 'secret rapture' for, and if no one knows about it, then anyone can says its going on and all other kinds of issues come up. If a religious number of people go missing is that the rapture, or if someone comes and says the rapture has happened because he knows of a reduction in people or group in a certain country, is that the rapture. As you can see, Satan has all kind of oppurtunities open to him to deceive, trick, and bring 'false christs' with all kinds of wonders or come himself and show enough tricks to fool people, and the doctrine of the rapture opens up this avenue, and many sadly will fall for it......

It is a false doctrine that has no reason or purpose as Christ will not come or take the saints in secret, every eye will see him.

For what purpose? Amazing you should ask, when Paul is so plain:

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


There are several reasons why we are not left on the earth. Here is a couple of reasons why were ARE taken to heaven:

john 14
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Rev 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

These all are reasons FOR a pretrib rapture.

Coop

 

[adam332]

There are many things that happen, let's start with the heavens and earth.

2Pet. 3:7 But the HEAVENS AND EARTH, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, RESERVED UNTO FIRE against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Jer. 4:23 I beheld the EARTH, and, lo, [it was] WITHOUT FORM, and VOID; and the HEAVENS, and they [had] NO LIGHT.

Psa. 68:8 The EARTH SHOOK, THE HEAVENS ALSO DROPPED at the presence of God: [even] Sinai itself [was moved] at the presence of God, the God of Israel.

Isa. 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the HEAVENS SHALL VANISH AWAY like smoke, and THE EARTH SHALL WAX OLD LIKE A GARMENT, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished

2Pet. 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the HEAVENS BEING ON FIRE SHALL BE DISSOLVED, and the ELEMENTS SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT?

Isa. 64:1 Oh that thou wouldest REND THE HEAVENS, that thou wouldest come down, that the MOUNTAINS MIGHT FLOW DOWN at thy presence,

Jer. 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place [was] A WILDERNESS, and ALL THE CITIES thereof were BROKEN DOWN AT THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, [and] by his fierce anger.

Nah. 1:5 The MOUNTAINS QUAKE at him, and the HILLS MELT, and the EARTH is BURNED at HIS PRESENCE, yea, the WORLD, and all that dwell therein.

Eze. 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the EARTH, and all the men that [are] upon the face of the EARTH, shall SHAKE at MY PRESENCE, and the MOUNTAINS SHALL BE THROWN DOWN, and the STEEP PLACES SHALL FALL, and EVERY WALL SHALL FALL to the ground.

Psa. 97:5 The HILLS MELTED LIKE WAX at the PRESENCE OF THE LORD, at the PRESENCE OF THE LORD of the WHOLE EARTH.

Psa. 114:7 TREMBLE, thou EARTH, at the PRESENCE OF THE LORD, at the presence of the God of Jacob;

2Pet. 3:10 But the DAY OF THE LORD will come as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the ELEMENTS SHALL MELT with FERVENT HEAT, the EARTH also and the works that are therein SHALL BE BURNED UP.

Isa. 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every MOUNTAIN AND HILL SHALL BE MADE LOW: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled, and every MOUNTAIN AND HILL SHALL BE BROUGHT LOW; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways [shall be] made smooth;

Job 9:6 Which SHAKETH THE EARTH OUT OF HER PLACE, and the pillars thereof TREMBLE.

Isa. 13:13 Therefore I will SHAKE THE HEAVENS, and the EARTH SHALL REMOVE OUT OF HER PLACE, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Joel 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH SHALL SHAKE: but the LORD [will be] the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Isa. 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and THE HEAVENS SHALL BE ROLLED TOGETHER as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.

Isa. 45:8 DROP DOWN, YE HEAVENS, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

Joel 2:10 The EARTH SHALL QUAKE before them; THE HEAVENS SHALL TREMBLE: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Hag. 2:6 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it [is] a little while, and I will SHAKE THE HEAVENS, and THE EARTH, and the sea, and the dry [land];

 

[adam332]

Here's what happens to the saints.

John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE THE CHILDREN OF GOD that were scattered abroad.

Mat. 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHERED TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but GATHER THE WHEAT INTO MY BARN.

Isa. 49:18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these GATHER THEMSELVES TOGETHER, [and] COME TO THEE. [As] I LIVE, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them [on thee], as a bride [doeth].

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Psa. 50:5 GATHER MY SAINTS TOGETHER UNTO ME; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

Isa. 60:4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all THEY GATHER THEMSELVES TOGETHER, THEY COME TO THEE: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.

Jer. 4:5 Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, GATHER TOGETHER, and say, ASSEMBLE YOURSELVES, and let us go into the defenced cities.

Jer. 31:8 Behold, I WILL bring them from the north country, and GATHER THEM FROM THE COASTS OF THE EARTH, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

Mic. 2:12 I WILL SURELY ASSEMBLE, O Jacob, all of thee; I WILL SURELY GATHER THE REMNANT OF ISRAEL; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.

Isa. 43:5-6 Fear not: for I am with thee: I WILL BRING THY SEED from the east, AND GATHER THEE from the west; I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters FROM THE ENDS OF THE EARTH;

Psa. 107:3 And GATHERED THEM OUT OF THE LANDS, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.

1Thes. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Adam

 

[adam332]

Here's what happens to the wicked.

Rev. 20:2-3 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and BOUND HIM A THOUSAND YEARS, And CAST HIM into the bottomless pit, and SHUT HIM UP, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, TILL THE THOUSAND YEARS SHOULD BE FULFILLED: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Isa. 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall DESTROY the sinners thereof OUT OF IT.

Rev. 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the DEAD, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest DESTROY THEM which destroy the earth.

Lam. 2:22 Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about, so that in the day of the LORD'S anger NONE ESCAPED NOR REMAINED: those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine enemy consumed.

Jer. 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, [there was] NO MAN, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

1Thes. 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and THEY SHALL NOT ESCAPE.

Zep. 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the FIRE of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy RIDDANCE OF ALL THEM THAT DWELL in the land.

Nah. 1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is BURNED at his presence, yea, the world, and ALL THAT DWELL THEREIN.

2Thes. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall CONSUME with the spirit of his mouth, and shall DESTROY with the brightness of his coming:

Rev. 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should SMITE the nations

Mal. 4:1 For, behold, THE DAY COMETH, THAT SHALL BURN AS AN OVEN; and all the proud, yea, and ALL THAT DO WICKEDLY, SHALL BE STUBBLE: AND THE DAY THAT COMETH SHALL BURN THEM UP, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Rev. 19:21 And the remnant were SLAIN with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Mat. 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and SEVER THE WICKED from among the just,

Isa. 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and THEY THAT DWELL THEREIN SHALL DIE in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished

Mat. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and BIND THEM INTO BUNDLES TO BURN THEM: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. This [is] the first resurrection.

 

[precepts]

What this thread lacks is more posters. The lack of posters or members allows others to post rhetoric, abusing the truth, contrary to scriptures but it has always been that way. There has always been Baal-christians among us that promote their own agenda, swearing by God falsely from the old testament. How sad. :nag

Precepts

 

[adam332]

What this thread lacks is more posters. The lack of posters or members allows others to post rhetoric, abusing the truth, contrary to scriptures but it has always been that way. There has always been Baal-christians among us that promote their own agenda, swearing by God falsely from the old testament. How sad. :nag

Precepts

Who do you speak of? My posts were pure scripture, so I hope you weren't referring to me.

Adam

 

[precepts]

Adam's
Who do you speak of? My posts were pure scripture, so I hope you weren't referring to me.

I'm referring to those that post contrary to scripture being fully cognizant.

 

[Hobie]

I'll just leave this one alone but state that i do believe in a rapture event sometime in the near future. :yes

Yes, but for what purpose? If Christ is coming for all the saints at the second coming, what is a 'secret rapture' for, and if no one knows about it, then anyone can says its going on and all other kinds of issues come up. If a religious number of people go missing is that the rapture, or if someone comes and says the rapture has happened because he knows of a reduction in people or group in a certain country, is that the rapture. As you can see, Satan has all kind of oppurtunities open to him to deceive, trick, and bring 'false christs' with all kinds of wonders or come himself and show enough tricks to fool people, and the doctrine of the rapture opens up this avenue, and many sadly will fall for it......

It is a false doctrine that has no reason or purpose as Christ will not come or take the saints in secret, every eye will see him.

For what purpose? Amazing you should ask, when Paul is so plain:

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


There are several reasons why we are not left on the earth. Here is a couple of reasons why were ARE taken to heaven:

john 14
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Rev 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

These all are reasons FOR a pretrib rapture.

Coop

The wrath is the lake of fire in which the wicked perish, and the other verses are clearly the second coming...

There is no secret rapture in the scriptures, its a terrible hoax and false doctrine that has been made up to confuse people as to the end time events, to turn from clear teaching of the second coming so Satan can put himself here or there after a so called 7 years and use his abilities of signs and wonders to fool people at the end. According to those teaching the secret rapture theory, the coming of Jesus will be in two separate stages. The first will be a secret rapture of the Church at the beginning of a 7 year tribulation period followed by a return of Christ to the Earth. They believe that during this seven year period the Antichrist is going to come into power and God will select and seal 144,000 literal Jews who will take the Gospel to the whole world converting immeasurable souls to Christ. Then literal Israel accepts the Lord as the Messiah and enters with Him as His covenant people into the 1,000 year (millennial) reign on earth known as the Kingdom Age, which has already been shown not to be on earth in a previous thread.

They preach that Christ will rule directly over the earth from Jerusalem, where the typical temple services function again. Those who ultimately reject Christ’s rule are eventually judged and destroyed at the end of the Millennium. The new believers will then receive immortality and eternity will begin.

Problem is the scripture nowhere speaks of these two separate comings and the word “rapture†is also an invention of false theologians and occurs nowhere in the Bible, and is false interpretation of Bible Prophecy.The order of events according to Scripture is very clear; there is Christ’s second coming, the resurrection, the catching up of the saints to meet Jesus in the air which all take place at the same time and at the end of the world. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 28:20 “…and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.†Why would Jesus promise to be with the Church until the end of the world if He intended to come seven years before the end to take them out of the world? The promise would then have no meaning.

This false doctrine on the secret rapture is contradictory to the words of Jesus in Matthew 13 when He said the wheat and tares would grow together until the “end of the world†and then would be separated. According to this dual coming secret rapture theory, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world. The righteous would be separated from the wicked seven years before the end. And what about the promise of the resurrection? Christ said, concerning the righteous, John 6:40 “…and I will raise him up at the last day.†No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Paul declares the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the “same time†the dead in Christ are raised. He says, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.†Did you note that Jesus called this resurrectin the “last day?â€

 

[lecoop]

Yes, but for what purpose? If Christ is coming for all the saints at the second coming, what is a 'secret rapture' for, and if no one knows about it, then anyone can says its going on and all other kinds of issues come up. If a religious number of people go missing is that the rapture, or if someone comes and says the rapture has happened because he knows of a reduction in people or group in a certain country, is that the rapture. As you can see, Satan has all kind of oppurtunities open to him to deceive, trick, and bring 'false christs' with all kinds of wonders or come himself and show enough tricks to fool people, and the doctrine of the rapture opens up this avenue, and many sadly will fall for it......

It is a false doctrine that has no reason or purpose as Christ will not come or take the saints in secret, every eye will see him.

For what purpose? Amazing you should ask, when Paul is so plain:

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


There are several reasons why we are not left on the earth. Here is a couple of reasons why were ARE taken to heaven:

john 14
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Rev 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

These all are reasons FOR a pretrib rapture.

Coop

The wrath is the lake of fire in which the wicked perish, and the other verses are clearly the second coming...

Hobie, how can you make such a bold statement? (Especially when it is wrong!)
What about the vials of His wrath? Was John mistaken?

Coop

 

[Hobie]

You have to understand what will happen when Christ comes, and its purpose, the 'secret rapture' has no purpose but confusion to let Satan apear as a false christ and mislead. Jesus Christ said in Matthew 24:40,“Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.â€

But people are trying to take it out of context to push the secret rapture when Christ gave a complete picture as shown below...

Matthew 24:27 - Jesus said,“For as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even to the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.†This verse is clearly describing Christ’s visible and ultra-glorious Second Coming. Very few disagree here.

Matthew 24:30, 31 - Jesus continued,“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels, with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another.†Once again, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is clearly described. This coming will be literal, visible, loud and glorious. All the world will see and hear it.

Matthew 24:36 -“But of that day [the day of the Second Coming] and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My father only.†Once again, the context is clearly the Second Coming.

Matthew 24:37-39 -“But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.†Jesus clearly compares His Second Coming with Noah’s flood. This flood came suddenly upon the lost “and took them all away.†In other words, they were lost - with no second chances. Christ said,“...so shall the coming of the Son of man be.â€

Matthew 24:40 -“THEN [capitols added] shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left.†This verse clearly is describing how some will be taken up and the wicked left at the salvation of the saints at the Second Coming of Jesus at the end of the world?

The basis of the so called rapture in which the believers will be suddenly taken up to Christ and seven years of chaos ensues is not a correct understanding of that text. Another text which is used:
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Luke 17:34-36 (KJV)

Upon these few texts the rapture is built and so strongly believed in that other Scripture are forced with a meaning not found to make it look like this teaching is very biblical. But as we shall see, this rapture theory is founded upon nothing but these texts taken out of context.
The context for these foundational verses is the stories of Noah and Lot. In both stories it is clear that the righteous are saved and the wicked are lost. No one is taken to heaven and other left on earth to face a seven year tribulation period. There is no second chance in the Scriptures in regards to the second coming of Jesus. When Jesus comes He brings His reward with Him to distribute to every man according to their works. It is the final reward. No second chance.
Note the statements on Noah in Luke 17.“until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.†Luke 17:27 (KJV) and of Lot,“But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luke 17:29 (KJV) The same happens in Noah’s story as given in Matthew 24,“until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matt 24:38-39 (KJV) Connected with this clear statement that when Jesus comes the righteous are saved and the wicked destroyed are the verses that supposedly support the rapture. Those “rapture†verses support no such event as commonly understood in the Christian Church. They simply state only that there are two classes of folk when Jesus come. One class will be preserved and saved, while the other class will be lost. No second chances. Thus, we are admonished to "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." Matt 24:42 (KJV)
This teaching has done more to skew the truth of the last day events than perhaps any other unbiblical teaching. But it is error and it needs to be shown that is it is just that.

 

[lecoop]

You have to understand what will happen when Christ comes, and its purpose, the 'secret rapture' has no purpose but confusion to let Satan apear as a false christ and mislead. Jesus Christ said in Matthew 24:40,“Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.â€

But people are trying to take it out of context to push the secret rapture when Christ gave a complete picture as shown below...

Matthew 24:27 - Jesus said,“For as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even to the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.†This verse is clearly describing Christ’s visible and ultra-glorious Second Coming. Very few disagree here.

Matthew 24:30, 31 - Jesus continued,“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels, with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another.†Once again, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is clearly described. This coming will be literal, visible, loud and glorious. All the world will see and hear it.

Matthew 24:36 -“But of that day [the day of the Second Coming] and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My father only.†Once again, the context is clearly the Second Coming.

Matthew 24:37-39 -“But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.†Jesus clearly compares His Second Coming with Noah’s flood. This flood came suddenly upon the lost “and took them all away.†In other words, they were lost - with no second chances. Christ said,“...so shall the coming of the Son of man be.â€

Matthew 24:40 -“THEN [capitols added] shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left.†This verse clearly is describing how some will be taken up and the wicked left at the salvation of the saints at the Second Coming of Jesus at the end of the world?

Hobie, your problem is, you are trying to make verses relate to the rapture of the church, when they were not about the rapture at all. Was Jesus speaking to Paul when He made this discourse? Of course he was not. Much of what He said was related to Daniel's 70th week. Again, it is not Paul's 70th week, as if it related to the church at all. No, it is DANIEL's 70th week because the entire purpose is for the JEWS (Hebrews). People try to insert the church into the Oliviet discourse, when in truth, the church would be years in coming. The truth is, Paul was the ONLY writer of the New Testament that received a revelation of the rapture of the church. Therefore, to find out ANYTHING about the rapture, you will have to look at Paul's writings. The verses speaking of the two where one is taken and one is left: sorry, that may be true of the rapture, but Luke tells us where those taken are taken. Those verses are simply not about the rapture. They ARE about the parable of the tares.

That parable is not about the rapture either, but it certainly will happen, when Christ comes on the white horse. The point Jesus was making with Noah was the SUDDENESS of the destruction. People want to add meaning to what Jesus said, and argue about who was taken and who was left - but that was NOT the point Jesus was making. I think you understand this. And when Jesus comes, and the parable of the tares is played out - you are right - no more chances.

As for the elect being gathered: why do you think that is speaking of the rapture? At the rapture, we become LIKE THE ANGELS and will have no need whatsoever for angels to gather us. That verse is speaking of gathering humans in natural bodies. Jesus with gather all the Jews back to Israel. Sorry, no rapture in that verse.

Coop