Thess, lets take a look at what you said below and see if we can become clear about what the scriptures.... IN FACT..... say;
Thessalonian said:
Seems like Jesus is in fact denying himself if you are correct in your interpretation.
Matt.10
[33] but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
Hmmm, you can still go to heaven after denying Christ before men? That is if you do not repent of your denial (which peter clearly did). You can deny Christ before men because Jesus is really bluffing here?
The first thing to note regarding Matthew 10:33, is that its context is in relation to what Jesus begins saying Matthew 10:16 onwards....
"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be therefore prudent as serpents and guileless as doves. And beware of men, for they will deliver you up to sanhedrins, and in their synagogues they will scourge you......."
Or in other words, "You disciples of mine are going to have it really, really hard, some will even suffer terrible deaths.
So the fact is, we can know that Jesus was speaking directly to His disciples in these series of verses, which particular speaking ends with...
Matthew 10:31-33,
"Therefore do not fear; you are of more value than many sparrows. Every one (meaning disciples) therefore who will confess in Me before men, I also will confess in him before My Father who is in the heavens; But whoever will deny Me before men, I also will deny him before My Father who is in the heavens."
Or in other words, "Those of you disciples who deny me (because of your persecution) I will deny before my Father."
So, here we have something that is very particular, Jesus speaking to His disciples about the persecution they will suffer, and about what will happen should any deny Him as they are persecuted.
Make note of verses 6 and 7 also,... "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, proclaim, saying, The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near."
See that Jesus was sending His disciples only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and not yet to the Gentiles, and also see that Matthew used a very specific term, "the kingdom of the heavens" (which had only drawn near), when telling these disciples what to proclaim.
Understand these verses from the point of view that Jesus had not died and risen as yet and so what exactly was it that these disciples were going to proclaim to the Jews? What did the disciples believe they were going to be proclaiming, and therefore what would the words "you deny Me I deny you" have menat to them?
The answer is found in Paul's speaking in 2 Timothy  2:12,
"If we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us;"
"... we will also reign with Him;" herein we find what was being proclaimed to the Jews by the Jewish disciples,.... the Messianic Kingdom, which today we know is the thousand-year reign of Christ.
Make note also that Paul was very clear to say "WE", and Paul absolutely knew he was eternally saved, yet he says "if we deny Him" including himself in the possibility of denying the Lord, while knowing he was absolutely eternally saved. This shows us that Paul was not speaking of eternal salvation but of something else.
Thus, the denial of the Lord of a believer to the Father, resulting from the believer's denial of the Lord because of persecution (not enduring the persecution), is in fact regarding the thousand-year reign of Christ and not the eternal salvation of the believer.
The denial of the believer by the Lord is for the reward of reigning with the Lord in His thousand-year earthly kingdom.
Reference the following...
"And later the rest of the virgins came also, saying, Lord, lord, open to us! But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you. Watch therefore, for you do not know the day nor the hour."
"Not every one who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who does the will of My Father who is in the heavens. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, was it not in Your name that we prophesied, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name did many works of power? And then I will declare to them: I never knew you. Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness."
In the verses above we can find two very important matters regarding a believer's entering into the kingdom of the heavens (which is not the same as entering into the kingdom of God).
The first important matter is that of "WATCHING", and the second important matter is that of "DOING THE WILL OF THE FATHER".
Notice that neither says anything about believing and confessing the Lord or being born-again,....
Romans  10:13, "For "whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.''
John  3 : 5, "Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
.... all that is spoken of here is "WATCHING" and "DOING THE FATHER's WILL".
Matthew  12 : 50, "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in the heavens, he is My brother and sister and mother."
Make note of the above declaration of Jesus because in the scripture verses below you will find out how being Jesus' brother and sister and mother is directly connected to the Father's will, that being sonship for His good pleasure.
Paul says in Romans 12:1-2,
"I exhort you therefore, brothers, through the compassions of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, well pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect."
And following these verses we find out from Paul what the will of God is, that we be members one of another (the built up body).
As in reaffirmed by Paul in the following scripture verses,
Ephesians  1 : 5
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"
Ephesians 5:17-20,
"Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissoluteness, but be filled in spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and psalming with your heart to the Lord, giving thanks at all times for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to our God and Father, being subject to one another in the fear of Christ:"
And we should all know that Jesus clearly stated His will when He declared.... "I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH..."
Being eternally saved by believing and confessing the Lord is only the very beginning of the building work of Christ.
The building work of Christ is the building of His church, but even this is not the final issue,..... sonship is the final issue; Jesus builds His church so that believers can be brought into sonship with God. The church is the earthly environment/vehicle in which men express their sonship of God.
That's why the church is not a building and doctrines and traditions, the church is God expressed.
Paul said it with the following words.... "For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."
The kingdom of God is the ruling, the reigning, of God with all its blessing and enjoyment. And those who are perfected in the ruling and reigning of God are considered His sons. But sonship is accomplished through a long process that begins with being eternally saved; and either a saved believer will accomplish this process (run his course) while he lives on this earth, or will accomplish it during the thousand-year reign of Christ when he will be saved as yet through fire (disciplined in the outer darkness where ther will be gnashing of teeth).
Obedience is learnt through suffering (even Jesus had to learn obedience this way), i.e. persecution. Therefore, those believers who deny Christ in order to save themselves from persecution will be denied by Christ at His return (and not God at the great white throne judgement) and thus find themselves suffering discipline (that will be worse than the persecution they tried to save themselves from on the earth) in the outer darkness for a thousand-years.
One final word...
Thessalonian said:
No I think that you misunderstand. God cannot deny who he is and so if a man denys him he is faithful to himself and his word and will follow through on what he said in Matt 10. That is clear.
2 Timothy 2:13, "If we (believer) are faithless (stop believing), He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."
Actually this verse says that even if we (again Paul includes himself, and he knows he is eternally saved) stop believing, God remains faithful to Himself, i.e. to what He has declared regarding His promise to anyone.... WHO HAS BELIEVED.
Titus 1:2, "In
the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before the times of the ages..."
Not,.... "In the expression of the hope of eternal life...."
It is our HOPE that saves us unto eternal life, not our work that comes out of being saved.
And our hope occurs and is confirmed... AT THE MOMENT OF OUR FIRST BELIEVING.
God's promise to which He must be faithful is that once a man has believed in the hope God has given us of eternal life,...... He (God) cannot allow this man to be lost, God must be faithful to do whatever is necessary to save this man..... who even for a fleeting moment..... HOPED in what God had promised.
This is the absolute wondefulness of God grace. That a man need only belive in the hope God has given us, and by doing so be eternally saved.
And God's hope has a Name and is a Person,...... Christ Jesus, on Whom we believe and into Whom we believe.
In love,
cj
